almoravid

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0dabb64e.jpg


1. Moscow
- Includes also Kolomna
2. Tver
- Includes also Rzhev
3. Novgorod
- Includes also Torzhok
4. Velikie Luki
5. Pskov
6. Zales'ye
- Includes Kostroma, Iaroslavl and Uglich
7. Suzdalia
- Includes Vladimir and Suzdal
8. Vologda
- Includes Beloozero
9. Galich
11. Ryazan
-Includes Murom
12. Nizhny Novgorod
13. Tambov
14. Saratov
15. Samara
16. Bashkiria
17. Sarai/Tsaritsyn
18. Astrakhan
19. Daghestan
+ 7 Provinces with their names on the map.


As Russia has to be revorked earlier or later, I propose this map as a base for a discussion on necessary rearrangement of some Russian and Volga provinces. Hope I didn't add too many.
 

Aetius

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Shouldn't Perm be south of Estland? There are so many problems with the standard map so I guess moving the provinces to their correct position (longitude and latitude) would be a good start.
 

almoravid

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Oops. Perm is south of Estland, true. It's just that I suck at drawing. I guess I sub-consciously moved Volga to have less space north and more south of it(Vologda-Arkhangelsk=Vologda-Voronezh). The provinces...well, I've got a map, but no scanner. Trust me, I've tried to represent it as good as my artistic abilities allow me to. You can get any map of early 15th Russia to see this one is better then vanilla. The provinces of Tambov, Saratov, Samara, and Sarai are based on nothing but my need to place Volga more correctly. One could take the guberni boundaries of Yekaterina, if desired, and draw something prettier, but this one does it's job, IMO. My map proposal simply fixes some bad bugs I'd like to get fixed.
 

Aetius

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The map is terrible to start with so I don't think its problem of your drawing skills :) Try finding online sources for 15th-18th century Russian administrative divisions and I suppose someone can help you out.
 

Hallsten

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Last edited:

Hallsten

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_tr said:
I think that maps should show how Russia has been partitioned in XV-XVIII century. 1902 it is too late...

Have you some maps from historical atlas or somethig like this?

Is there a reason to think that the administrative regions have changed all that much? The county-borders in Sweden have been more or less unchanged since the early 15th century...
 

almoravid

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Your chart is quite weird. Look at that gigantic Georgia... This map is very much what I was trying to portrait:
east_eur1462.gif
 

Birger

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unmerged(13006)

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Aetius said:
Shouldn't Perm be south of Estland? There are so many problems with the standard map so I guess moving the provinces to their correct position (longitude and latitude) would be a good start.

Sure thing, but it means - Almoravide' Perm placement is quite valid.

1) Paradox chart is far cry from Mercator presentation, which has latitudes parallel to horisontal border of map with a reason - Mercator presentation is best if you like to look at EQUATORIAL lands but whole Europe is quite far from Equator.
Then Paradox chart is complex of different maps with "curvy-angled projections" from different focal points. One of this points is in North sea - then Northern part of Western Europe is coser to reality then Southern Europe or Eastern Europe. Another focal point is in Southern China, third is in Persian Gulf and so on.
Big problem in this presentation is - farthest regions from these focal points are distorted in most extent, the eastern part of Europe is distorted out of recognition, because it is placed in farthest possible region from ALL focal points.
Minor problem is - latitudes are broken lines in this presentation. If you will draw loxodromes from Kiev to Beijing (one and the same latitude appx) you will get line with three (as minimum) different "legs" of different lengths and elevations.
For example, - Nordcap in northernnmost point of Europe, but in Barentz/Karsk Seas midsection line of shores made sharp turn to south due to New Land (Novaja Zemlja) archipelago existence. But in Paradox chart - Barenz Sea shore just run out from northern chart border. (Quite normal thing for "Curvy Angled" presentation in far regions from focal point, which is in North sea - I repeat). It means - latitudal lines in Eastern Europe part of Paradox chart MUST be rather step curves from western part of chart to north-eastern angle - not direct lines parallel to horizon anyway. More then that all objects must be represented as growing things in crossing sections to focal section. (Compare this process with HUGE Antarctida continent representation in standard Mercator representation - you can get wrong impression Mercator Antarctida is Bigger the Africa in many times when it is smaller then Africa in reality.)
I've mean - all objects in growing distances from focal point must be represented as BIGGER objects.
It means - Almoravid placed "Perm" region LOWER then Estland - quite correct and it means - he placed "Perm" TO NORTH from Estland, but made it smaller then it is necessary by this presentation.

Dixi.

P.S. I've made this complaint previously, but this complaint was rather acedemic nature - I've regret the fact - "You can't make valid Russia map in Paradox chart due to fact - core-lands of Russia is placed very far from all focal points of "curvy-angled" presentation used by Paradox. It means - lot of PTI's in Russian territory is necessary evil, because Paradox crew used Russian vastness as good place for hiding all excessive "map bits" - result of necessary distortions in transition from spheric form of Earth to flat map procedure.

It means - Russian map had to be done in last moment - after all her neighbours map will be done, because you can't create PTI in Poland or Germani for hiding all possible discrepancies created by translation from spheric to flat presentations, but Russia (thank God!) is big enough for hiding all possible European map' mischiefs and problems.
I've mean - let our Western neighbours determine placement of their provinces - then we will add Russian provinces to resulting map.
In other case - their provinces will be distorted out from recognitions.

Dixi.

P.P.S. I didn't like to mention this thing previously, but every time in the game I've got a lot of complaints for MAGNITUDE of Russian provinces - especially in Obj Valley and in Siberian corridor. More then that - MAGNITUDE of shitty provinces in steppe regions is quite hard "wet blanket" for any attempt of EU2 Russia to grow in South successfully. If my opinion is valid I would ask EEP-AGC council to DROP Russian provinces amount very hard with raising their economic and manpower values for keeping balance. More then that I'd like to ask EEP-AGC High Council to raise time of all Russian province crossing in very hard manner. Moscow Army marched to Tver stronghold in XIV century more then one month - without artillery!
It means - pls, make less Russian provinces with each province a bit bigger, more rich and more powerful (with bigger manpower). It will do Russia more manageable in stability quarter - in big way.
In the same time, pls, make any walking time from one province to another - quite long. This method will represent main problem in fighting with Russia.
Any European or Muslim invaders will be stuck in Russian famous (or infamous ;) roadnet and will be decimated by russian hard winters - while marching - in (or - out ;) our Motherland.

Dixi
 

WiSK

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Bash, I love reading your posts :)
 

Aetius

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Bash, we can fix the projection in Russia. There is no reason to keep the freaky old one. Its a relic from the board game.
 

Aetius

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The Caucasus should be in the game. The area was fought over by the Russians, Iranians and Ottomans. There are Khanates (e.g. the ones ceded by Iran to Russia) and principalities to use, even if some have to be made a big bigger for game reasons.
 

doktarr

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Bash said:
I didn't like to mention this thing previously, but every time in the game I've got a lot of complaints for MAGNITUDE of Russian provinces - especially in Obj Valley and in Siberian corridor. More then that - MAGNITUDE of shitty provinces in steppe regions is quite hard "wet blanket" for any attempt of EU2 Russia to grow in South successfully. If my opinion is valid I would ask EEP-AGC council to DROP Russian provinces amount very hard with raising their economic and manpower values for keeping balance. More then that I'd like to ask EEP-AGC High Council to raise time of all Russian province crossing in very hard manner. Moscow Army marched to Tver stronghold in XIV century more then one month - without artillery!
It means - pls, make less Russian provinces with each province a bit bigger, more rich and more powerful (with bigger manpower). It will do Russia more manageable in stability quarter - in big way.
In the same time, pls, make any walking time from one province to another - quite long. This method will represent main problem in fighting with Russia.
Any European or Muslim invaders will be stuck in Russian famous (or infamous ;) roadnet and will be decimated by russian hard winters - while marching - in (or - out ;) our Motherland.
Finally, somebody gets it. Big provinces are not bad provinces.