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That thread is rather long, and some posters could have problems with finding actual map proposition. The Master - could you edit yours first post, so anybody could easily find actual maps?

Historical map of Commonwealth
mapafinal.jpg


Latest MKJ map proposition
http://www.thehiddenlounge.com/europe.png

Problem with P-L map is Commonwealth was home of many nations: Armenians, Byelarussians, Germans, Jews, Lativians, Lithuanians, Poles, Russians, Tatars, Ukrainians and more. And each nation believe new map should represent their vision of history of P-L, and so provinces have to represent their culture, province names, borders and so on. We already have here some nasty problems with some crazied posters.

nalivayko - IMO we should talk mainly about latest MKJ map. It's not best, historical, accurate, it's a compromise. Hard to reach compromise. As you see, Ukraine is unfinished yet. Also eastern parts of Ukraine was under Golden Orde rule, then Russian, so it's disscused in new map: Russia thread. So someone will have to coordinate Ukraine map development in both threads. As I know most P-L thread posters are reading Russian thread, and I hope some Russian posters are reading those thread also :)
 
If we are to discuss MKJ map alone, these are the suggestions that I have:

1. Current Poltava - either rename to Chihirin or merge with current Little Ruthenia. Second option more historic and more preferable.
2. Little Ruthenia to be renamed to Kiev
3. Current Kiev - I am with those who say that this little province has little significance and should be merged with current Little Ruthenia
4. Unnamed province south of current Poltava - name Zaporozhian Sich or Sich - capitol Sich, not Kodak. Sich has a historic significance far beyond that of the small fortress Kodak.
5. Provinces east of Dnieper: east of current Kiev create one rather large province. Name it Pereyaslav. Unnamed province above it should be Chernigov. Further east should be handled on the Russian map thread.
6. Wild Fields - weird one. Wild Field was never a province. In fact, the very name suggests the absense of the province. The location of the Wild Field is to the east of the river Dnieper, alongside the Muravskiy Way (from Crimea to Tula). Suggestion: rename current Wild Field back to Jedisan or come up with something else.
7. If we are to consider Crimea here, I would suggest splitting vanilla province in two. The significance of Crimea was always its location on the peninsula, behind Perikop line. The northern part of the vanilla could be re-named to Wild Field, but a better name exists already on some latter maps (18th century) as well as much earlier ones (ancient world): Taurida.

Hope this helps, each point is open for discussion. I also strongly object to 'Black Ruthenia' since it never really existed and 'Little Ruthenia' for obvious reasons. There also seems to be a tendency to make sure the province is named differently from the city. I think it is a great idea... for Western Europe and even some Ukrainian provinces (e.g. Galicia - Lviv). However, the majority of Ukrainian and Russian provinces were named after the capitol city. As a matter of fact, current Ukrainian regions still follow this trend. Thus, Kiev should be a capitol of Kiev province, Pereyaslav of Pereyaslav and Poltava (if there is a need for a second province east of Dnieper) of Poltava.
 
nalivayko said:
If we are to discuss MKJ map alone, these are the suggestions that I have:

1. Current Poltava - either rename to Chihirin or merge with current Little Ruthenia. Second option more historic and more preferable.
I agree.
2. Little Ruthenia to be renamed to Kiev
3. Current Kiev - I am with those who say that this little province has little significance and should be merged with current Little Ruthenia
IMO - Ukraine as a province name is best option.
4. Unnamed province south of current Poltava - name Zaporozhian Sich or Sich - capitol Sich, not Kodak. Sich has a historic significance far beyond that of the small fortress Kodak.
Just Zaporozhe, capitol Sich - to show importance of Cossacs
6. Wild Fields - weird one. Wild Field was never a province. In fact, the very name suggests the absense of the province. The location of the Wild Field is to the east of the river Dnieper, alongside the Muravskiy Way (from Crimea to Tula). Suggestion: rename current Wild Field back to Jedisan or come up with something else.
Jedisan. Wild Fields is something like Wild West.
7. If we are to consider Crimea here, I would suggest splitting vanilla province in two. The significance of Crimea was always its location on the peninsula, behind Perikop line. The northern part of the vanilla could be re-named to Wild Field, but a better name exists already on some latter maps (18th century) as well as much earlier ones (ancient world): Taurida.
Hard to say, where Crimean map should be discussed. IMO could be here. Has anybody crimean maps? :)

Hope this helps, each point is open for discussion. I also strongly object to 'Black Ruthenia' since it never really existed and 'Little Ruthenia' for obvious reasons.
I agree, as almost everybody in this thread :)
 
Hello, just thought I'd pop in and say that I really support both Ösel and Dorpat as separate provinces, mostly the latter as it was a separate Voivodship, and then a separate territory from Livonia and Estonia while under Swedish rule. Not great arguments by any standard, but it would make such a nice little province... :D

nea1700.jpg
 
anti_strunt said:
Hello, just thought I'd pop in and say that I really support both Ösel and Dorpat as separate provinces, mostly the latter as it was a separate Voivodship, and then a separate territory from Livonia and Estonia while under Swedish rule. Not great arguments by any standard, but it would make such a nice little province... :D

<pic>

I think it was decided that both Ösel and Dorpat would be too small and too insignificant to model separately. I'd really like an Ösel province though. It was Danish for roughtly 70 years after all...
 
Hallsten said:
I think it was decided that both Ösel and Dorpat would be too small and too insignificant to model separately. I'd really like an Ösel province though. It was Danish for roughtly 70 years after all...
Isn't Ösel the islands west of Estonia (Hiiumaa and Saaremaa)? If so the two islands combined would be about the same size as Gotland, and would most certainly be worthy of a province IMHO.
 
Isn't Ösel the islands west of Estonia (Hiiumaa and Saaremaa)? If so the two islands combined would be about the same size as Gotland, and would most certainly be worthy of a province IMHO.

Yes and they also would be quite hard to take thus pretty much altering wars around there - the sea between em and continent should be given 'straits' status.
At least not so many easy conquests..
 
The southern island is called Ösel and the northern is called Dagö in Swedish. Both of them had a significant Swedish population until WW2 actually...
It's true that both of them became Danish in 1559 and 1560 respectively, so maybe they can both be turned into one province. Together they're big enough I think... :)
 
Hallsten said:
The southern island is called Ösel and the northern is called Dagö in Swedish. Both of them had a significant Swedish population until WW2 actually...
It's true that both of them became Danish in 1559 and 1560 respectively, so maybe they can both be turned into one province. Together they're big enough I think... :)
I prefer them as one province too. Seperately they are too small. But they should be seperate from the mainland.
 
Sute]{h said:
I prefer them as one province too. Seperately they are too small. But they should be seperate from the mainland.

I want a strait in between so that Sweden can conquer them from Estland. Not that that ever happened, since the islands were untouched by warfare, but Sweden needs to control them to be aböe to take them in a peace-treaty.
Maybe a strait can be exchanged for a CB on the islands, though.
 
Sute]{h said:
Isn't Ösel the islands west of Estonia (Hiiumaa and Saaremaa)? If so the two islands combined would be about the same size as Gotland, and would most certainly be worthy of a province IMHO.
Separate Osel is not small really (even without Dago). It's nearly of the same size like Gotland... As to Dorpat - I already saw it included in one map and it was rather clickable really... It's not a problem really.
 
Need your input on Ukraine - this is the copy of the post on MJK's Map thread:

...suggestions for Ukraine (moving from west to east):

http://www.soloveyonline.com/eu2/concept/ukraine.gif

1. Change borders of Red Rus (Ruthenia, if u absolutely must, but it does sound strange to us, so-called 'ruthenians'), Volyn and Chelm. Historically, Galicia (Red R.) and Volyn were apprx. the same size.

2. Change borders of Podolia and Braclav - they never extended that far north and east.

3. Remove Kiev province. Ukraine should have Kiev as capitol, it makes no sense to keep them separate. Just because Russians got Kiev in the peace of Andrusov it should not be represented as its own province.

4. Instead of adding Kiev province, add one to Zaporozhie. Zaporozhian lands extended to both sides of the river Dnieper. A two province Zaporozhia will be historical and more fun to play, if someone designs a scenario for it. I am not sure about the names for these two provinces, any suggestions are welcome. Some variants: W. Zaporozhie - E. Zaporozhie, Kryvyy Rih - Zaporozhie. Still researching the subject.

5. Made Cherson area smaller. I do like the name, since the city has been there forever. Jedisan was rather temporary.

6. Enlarged Pereyaslavl province at expense of Chernigov. More historical border.

7. Migulinskaya is a very modern name. I am sure you took it from Vicky. Don province would make more sense as for the most time of EU2 timeframe it was controlled by Don Cossacks.

8. Rename Novgorod-Severski to Sloboda. Possibly break Sloboda into Belgorod and Sloboda. Different border variants are suggested. Sloboda was to the south of the city of Belgorod and to the south west of the city of Voronezh.

9. Extended Taurida a bit to the east. Crimean Tatars did control the mouth of the river Don for a long, long time.

This is it for now. Please let me know your thoughts.
 
So I'm almost done my planned map and I'll show it here when it's done. I've made some smaller provinces out of those huge eastern provinces. Province sizes in my map are a compromise between historic and cultural regions, geographic and terrain types and population density.
 
Several months ago, when map editing on this forum only start, there was a altercation beetwen Mad King James and polish EU's players. We have different idea how Polish and Lithuanian Commonwealth region should look. Because MKJ ignore our postulates we decided to draw own map of our region. Althought our IDs layer was ready several months ago, we stoped works and waited for AGC-EEP map - map of the whole world. We want to replace Poland on this map by our own to do a new map for best polish mod supported on AGC-EEP - Quendi Poland Mod. And now - when it's close to premiere the new map - I present my and my friends work. Thanks for help to Herr Doctor, The Master and Quendi.

numerkiprowincji7qq.jpg


I know, I know - too many prowinces, some prowinces to small :)... but this map is so historical as only can be...
Some prowinces can change - Silesia, Smolensk, Masovia and Plock...
 
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_tr said:
I know, I know - too many prowinces, some prowinces to small :)... but this map is so historical as only can be...
Some prowinces can change - Silesia, Smolensk, Masovia and Plock...

Nice map, but just for special P-L Commonwealth mini-mod :) On the other hand - special maps, for "local' mini-mods could be very interesting.
 
I strongly suspect they intend to borrow yours :p