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zdlugasz

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Herr Doctor said:
Then I suppose Podlasia should be (in Ruthenian) Padlašša (or Padlaszsza)?

Hehe, I had it coming :D You are right.

BTW. it seems that in English transcripion it should be Podlachia.
 

zdlugasz

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Another provincial issue:

I do not see whole Jedysan and Pereyaslavl but as I have already said. Jedysan seems to be too big. It looks like previous "Krementjug" was merged into Jedysan. And while Jedysan belonged to OE, Krementjug belonged (over half of game) to Lithuania/Poland.

Pereyaslavl province corresponds to previous Poltava.

Matter of Kiev. When Poland signed treaty with Russia in 1667 left bank Ukraine (Pereyaslav/Poltava and non existing Krementjug) was ceded to Russia. On the right bank Russia got city Kiev and small strap of land, I can try to dig out exact area but looking at map (1:5millions) it looks like about 200 square kilometers (maybe little less?).
It is situation like with city Riga. Is in fact single city so important to give it province (and Kiev had lower than 10000 inhabitants at the beginning of XVIIth century, I guess that this number dropped during wars, raids, famine and plague which ravaged Ukraine in the middle of XVIIth century).

My suggestion would be to merge Kiev with Pereyaslav and return "Krementjug" giving it name Zaporizhzhia (in Polish Zaporoze, this English transcription of Ukrainian word is f*ing wonderful :wacko: ) or Wild Fields or Zaporozhye using Russian name.


EDIT: I do not really know why but I prefer transcriptions of Russian versions than Ukrainian's :)
 

zdlugasz

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Latest news from Polotsk-Ostrov-Pskov border :D

There are more or less 4 cities in one line: Pskov, Ostrov, Siebiez and Polotsk.
Distance between Pskov and Ostrov is like 55-60 km, between Pskov and Polotsk about 260km and between Polotsk and Siebiez about 85 km. Till 1536 (and after 1618) Siebiez was in Lithuania and border between Lithuania and Pskov/Muscovy was about 130-150 from Pskov (it was not straight line) and 110-130 from Polotsk.

Superimposing positions of Pskov and Polotsk on new map we get border between Pskov and Ostov about 50km south of Pskov and border between Ostov and Polotsk about 50km north of Polotsk.

What a joy - who should own Ostrov?
(the only good news is that city Ostrov is in Ostrov :D )
 

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zdlugasz said:
What I meant is that on the old map was one Silesia and now we have two provinces. I did not want to say that Silesia and Opole have to share the same fate.

Anyway if it is one-province minor and vassal, Bohemia will diploannex them in the middle of XVth century.
i play mymap, there are 4 silesian duchies on map and i never saw dippliannexation in XV century, i saw breaking vassalisation and war, but no diploannexation, but wars were probably becouse bohemia ad core on duchies which i proposed to be removed and added by event if bohemia annexes it or someone else does (i wrote such events and more)
 

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Next nitpicks

Below is what I wanted to write first, however if we make Volynia bigger and assume that Belz is inside Red Ruthenia it would be more or less OK.

Anyway Ukraine should be shifted east (eating part of Chernigov) and province Kiev is too big (anyway I have already proposed to delete it). Braclav's ultimate east-northern border should be along Dnieper river, which will be border between Poland and Russia.


Code:
Looking at map I have noticed that
- province Ukraina is located in place where Volynia voivodship was 
- province Volynia is located in place where one smaller voivodship of Belz and land of Chelm were located
- Ukraina was geographical term, not administrative, there was Kiev voivodship (call it Ukraine proper) and it 
encompassed provinces Kiev, Pereyaslav, part of Braclaw (Braclaw on map is too big) eastern part of province 
Ukraine, southern part of province Chernigov and Wild Fields "Krementjug", now in Jedysan

my proposal: rename Ukraine to Volynia, Volynia to Belz and make Kiev voivodship 3 provincer western part 
(without Kiev), eastern: Pereyaslav and southern "Krementjug".
Western part would include northern strip from Braclav, eastern from  Ukraine/Volynia,
and southern strip from Chernigov
 

zdlugasz

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in post 534 on previous page updated proposal of old-new provinces split

Some data are incomplete (what is east of Chernigov, what has happend to Krementjug)
 

Garbon

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zdlugasz said:
My suggestion would be to merge Kiev with Pereyaslav and return "Krementjug" giving it name Zaporizhzhia (in Polish Zaporoze, this English transcription of Ukrainian word is f*ing wonderful :wacko: ) or Wild Fields or Zaporozhye using Russian name.

Wild Fields is a province name. I guess it just isn't shown on this fragment.
 

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rybka said:
i play mymap, there are 4 silesian duchies on map and i never saw dippliannexation in XV century, i saw breaking vassalisation and war, but no diploannexation, but wars were probably becouse bohemia ad core on duchies which i proposed to be removed and added by event if bohemia annexes it or someone else does (i wrote such events and more)

Not particularly relevant to this project as, as far as I know, no nations in that region are on the last of prospective nations.
 

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Garbon said:
Wild Fields is a province name. I guess it just isn't shown on this fragment.

Where it is located? :confused: east of Pereyaslav seems to be the only possibility, however should encompass lower run of Dnieper

Eh, I have to wait and see
Anyway west-southern tip of Braclav is supposed to be about 150km from the Black See (along Dniester) and east-southern tip of Braclav (or Zaporozhe or other Lithuanian province on the right bank of Dnieper) is supposed to be about 60 from Black See (along Dnieper), while Ochakov was about 90 from Lithuanian border.
That is why I was expecting to see Black See somewhere at the bottom of map and that is why I am saying that Jedisan is too big.

Btw. what has happened rivers, are they on different layer?

And kind of revenge: Wild Fields is Polish name translated to English :D Long live Polish modders :rofl:
 
Last edited:

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zdlugasz said:
Where it is located? :confused: east of Pereyaslav seems to be the only possibility, however should encompass lower run of Dnieper

Eh, I have to wait and see
Anyway west-southern tip of Braclav is supposed to be about 150km from the Black See (along Dniester) and east-southern tip of Braclav (or Zaporozhe or other Lithuanian province on the right bank of Dnieper) is supposed to be about 60 from Black See (along Dnieper), while Ochakov was about 90 from Lithuanian border.
That is why I was expecting to see Black See somewhere at the bottom of map and that is why I am saying that Jedisan is too big.

Btw. what has happened rivers, are they on different layer?

And kind of revenge: Wild Field is Polish name translated to English :D Long live Polish modders :rofl:

And it should be plural: Fields

Can't really say anything off hand, as I don't recall much about the area.

Yea, the rivers are just on a different layer. They aren't shown, because as an inheritance of MKJ's map, many of them were shaded in a different color. Until I've set them all straight, I just didn't show them.

Well, I think Wild Fields is a province name that MKJ added. I think he might have got that name from euratlas (www.euratlas.com) which has Wild Fields written in on the 1500 map.
 

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Garbon said:
Yea, the rivers are just on a different layer. They aren't shown, because as an inheritance of MKJ's map, many of them were shaded in a different color. Until I've set them all straight, I just didn't show them.

I guess it would be possible to merge two provinces across river (visually) while from the game mechanics point of view it would be located on one bank?
Kiev and Pereyaslav and second pair: Chelmno and Kuyavia

EDIT: and if we could have vertical split of Masovia/Warsaw (across Vistula) instead of horizontal one it would be perfect too (or at least much better :)).
 
Last edited:

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zdlugasz said:
I guess it would be possible to merge two provinces across river (visually) while from the game mechanics point of view it would be located on one bank?
I have two candidates: Kiev and Pereyaslav and second pair: Chelmno and Kuyavia
chelmno and kuyavia??
what for? at the start chelmo belongs to teutonic order and kujawia to poland so why do you want to merge them?
 

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rybka said:
chelmno and kuyavia??
what for? at the start chelmo belongs to teutonic order and kujawia to poland so why do you want to merge them?

True, I proposed to drop Chelmno completely (and extend Kuyavia on map). Teutonic Order and Poland will have enough small provinces even without Chelmno.

I know it is supposed to move to Poland in 1466. But also Warmia and Pomerelia. So what the point is? To be super-duper-historically accurate and move 3 instead of 2 provinces? Chelmno (Ziemia Chelminska) is not really big (area wise, tax wise with proposed rules will be rather poor). And if we subtract it from Prussia (looking at vanilla map Chelmno is in Prussia) all Prussian provinces will be weaker (in tax). If we subtract it from Masovia (historically Chelmno belonged to Masovia before Teutonic Order captured it) then we divide single Masovia tax about 10 into 3 provices. Does it have any sense (to have future Polish capital with tax 4 or 5?)


If we kept old tax levels we could discuss, however IMO it would overpower Livonian Order and Teutonic Order and if Polish AI reconquered its historical provinces Poland would be overpowered.
 
Last edited:

rybka

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zdlugasz said:
I know it is supposed to move to Poland in 1466. But also Warmia and Pomerelia. So what the point is? To be super-duper-historically accurate and move 3 instead of 2 provinces? Chelmno (Ziemia Chelminska) is not big (population wise, tax wise with proposed rules will be poor). And if we

i would rather merge chelmno and warmia like it is done on kasperus map
note that in chelmo province main city is thorn, in 1466 it was 3 biggest city in poland, after gdansk and krakow, only later population dropped
 

zdlugasz

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rybka said:
i would rather merge chelmno and warmia like it is done on kasperus map
note that in chelmo province main city is thorn, in 1466 it was 3 biggest city in poland, after gdansk and krakow, only later population dropped


That is fine for me, however would require redrawing map anyway: cut narrow strip from Masuria to connect Warmia and Chelmno. Anyway Chelmno should not be "pointy" on east ("tip" could be added to Masovia).

And if we connect Masuria with Baltic we will be close to the ying-yang figure :) - perfect balance :rofl:
 

Mad King James

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Technically Thorn (Chelmno), Danzig (Pomerelia) and Elbing (Warmia) formed a league of cities in 1440 (The Prussian Confederation) and revolted against the Teutonic Order in 1454. It was their request of aid from Poland that got Poland involved in the war in the first place.
 

zdlugasz

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Mad King James said:
Technically Thorn (Chelmno), Danzig (Pomerelia) and Elbing (Warmia) formed a league of cities in 1440 (The Prussian Confederation) and revolted against the Teutonic Order in 1454. It was their request of aid from Poland that got Poland involved in the war in the first place.

And?
League was formed by almost 20 cities and about 60 nobles. Among cities was also Marienwerder (where League was signed) which is one of bigger cities in province Masuria (and was capital of bishopric). So we exchanged bits of information.

The problem is that separate Chelmno, Warmia etc would have too low tax (with current tax assignment rules) - there are too many small provinces, and if we duplicate tax from neighbourung provinces we may owerpower Teutonic order or later Poland.
 

Mad King James

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It's like that in MyMap, and Poland still usually wins. The difference is that sometimes the Teutonic Order manages to defeat Poland, sometimes noone wins, and most of the time Poland wins after a hard-fought war.

The Teutonic Order wasn't a cakewalk for Poland to defeat, and it was by no means assured they would win. To hand Poland an easy victory here is to do history a disservice.