zdlugasz

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Another post moved "by hand"

Herr Doctor said:
I would not comment on Polostk and “Belarus” borders as it is clear fantasy as you know. In addition (do not know that I would have to repeat this so many times :)) “Belarus” (White Russia, Russia Alba, Белая Русь or whatever it was called) in the 15th century was using as the geographical term for Novgorod and Smolensk regions. In the middle of the 16th century it turned to Polotsk-Vitebsk-Smolensk region. And only in the second half of the 17th – early 18th century it was started to be used for central (Minsk voivodship) region too.

Borders are not bogus at all, might be incorrect but it is different matter. As I have already written: Lithuania had clear administrative division and Polotsk and Minsk voivodships had clear borders.

And that administrative division was present already in XVIth century.
 

zdlugasz

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Next moved post

Herr Doctor said:
You want to say that Minsk voivodship had nearly a common border with Livonia or what exactly? Just compare this map (which is the same like the very first sketch MKJ made long time ago) with the historical voivodships in Lithuania. It is not nearly look like this.

1) I do not see whole Belarus/Minsk on this AGCEEP map but it does not have border with any Livonian Province on this map.
2) I do not have MKJ map as well, but I have map with real borders so I do not care what was MKJ drawing

Minks voivodship had borders with voivodships: wilenskie (form vilinius -Lihuania), polockie (Polotsk), witebskie (Vitebsk), mscislawskie (Mstislav), smolenskie (Smolensk), czernichowskie (Chernigov), kijowskie (Kiev), brzesko-litewskie (Brest and Pinsk) and nowogrodzkie (Nowogrodek). It is "higher" than "wider" on map.
On map 1:5000000 there is less than 2 cm between northern tip of Minsk Voivodship and border with Livonia.

So considering that Garbon and other authors achieved I think that this part of map is quite good (maybe northern border of Belarus could be a little lower, but the error is acceptable and does not change much)
 

zdlugasz

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And one more post

Herr Doctor said:
Since when did Minsk voivodship border Smolensk voivodship? And this "less than 2 cm" is about 250 killometers. There is also half of the Polotsk voivodship in this "Belarus" (with the city itself) and Vitebsk is made part of it... :wacko:

Ehh...
1) I went to measure it exactly and it is 1.6cm (LOS).

2) hehe, it did border! Smolensk Voivodship was one bulb connected by narrow pass to a smaller bulb in south (this smaller bulb had cities like: Popowa Góra, Poczed, Suraź, Trubczewsk, Starodub) and this smaller bulb (below Mstislav voivodship) had border with Minsk voivodship (cities in southern part of Minsk voivodship were: e.g. Homel, Rzeczyca, Czeczersk)

sorry for Polish names of cities :)

3)Regarding Vitebsk I have only map posted by Norrefeldt yesterday so I can say anything

EDIT: but even from this what I see on Norrefeldt map it looks like Polotsk, Vitebsk and Mstislav were all merged


EDIT2: and 1.6 cm on map 1:5 million is equal to 80 km, 2 cm are equal to 100km, or I do not know how to read maps at all (which is quite possible :D )
 

zdlugasz

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Another moved post

Herr Doctor said:
it is defiantly much longer in reality than it looks on AGCEEP map. :p It supposed to look like this (I hope you know this map; and no, it is not MyMAP). ;)
http://www.geocities.com/kirylaf/maps/map7.txt
Sorry, no. Should I? I am bad at quizes.
There is Samogitia, so if it is not MyMAP it could be AGCEEP, but I havent seen whole map.

Where? :confused: It all the voivodship of Czernigov.
http://www.geocities.com/kirylaf/maps/map2.txt

So we have different maps :) there is Homel and area right of Homel (on Polish map) belongs to Smolensk voivodship.
On my map border between Chernigov and Smolensk is half way between Starodub and Novgorod-Sieversk (more or less along 52N).
Maybe maps show borders in slightly differnet times? Or "your" map shows borders of Novgorod-Sieversk duchy?
I have no reason to doubt accuracy of internal borders on Polish maps.

Reason:
Chernigov was "below" border line of lands ceded to Crown (Ukraine) along 52N which was more or less border between Crown and Lithuania. So when Poland and Lithuania regained Smolensk, Chernigov, Starodub etc, border between Poland and Lithuania was extended east.

map before 1610

EDIT: I have found map. I will post it soon

overall map (not best quality) plus 3 higher resolution; all about 1MB if you need smaller siez tell me

EDIT2: maps are uploaded; I will try to check in my books what has happened to Starodub
 

zdlugasz

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Last of moved post
What is strange is localization of Ostrov province (below Pskov). It looks like about half of it should belong to Lithuania and half to Pskov.

Anyway city Ostrov is inside Pskov province (it is about 60 km south of Pskov)


Edit: as far as I see Ostrov should be partitioned between Velkije Luki, Pskov and Polotsk
 

Herr Doctor

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zdlugasz said:
Another moved post


Sorry, no. Should I? I am bad at quizes.
There is Samogitia, so if it is not MyMAP it could be AGCEEP, but I havent seen whole map.
It is the one made by Polish EUII community in eufi forum. So as soon as you are from Polska, I thought you should know this one. ;)

zdlugasz said:
So we have different maps :) there is Homel and area right of Homel (on Polish map) belongs to Smolensk voivodship.
On my map border between Chernigov and Smolensk is half way between Starodub and Novgorod-Sieversk (more or less along 52N).
Maybe maps show borders in slightly differnet times? Or "your" map shows borders of Novgorod-Sieversk duchy?
I have no reason to doubt accuracy of internal borders on Polish maps.

Reason:
Chernigov was "below" border line of lands ceded to Crown (Ukraine) along 52N which was more or less border between Crown and Lithuania. So when Poland and Lithuania regained Smolensk, Chernigov, Starodub etc, border between Poland and Lithuania was extended east.
Well, as far as I checked Starodub indeed was later included to Smolnesk voivodship, but this only after 1619 peace. However, prior to it (and Russian annexation of the Smolensk and Chernigov lands in early 1500s) the region traditionally was part of the Chernigov ‘princedom’. Perhaps such division appeared because of the Polish incorporation of Ukraine in 1569, which created the precedent to claim Chernigov for the Polish Crown (as part of the “Kievin Crown” inheritance) and left Starodub for the Grand Duchy…
 

zdlugasz

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It is really hard to make comments about provinces which are not shown completely, e.g Bessarabia and Jedysan.

0) not knowing what was exactly done to the provinces east of Chernigov it is hard to decide oldID and new tax.

1) Bessarabia it is area ceded to Russia in 1812, previously Moldavia (I hope that nothing more), so it could be considered with Moldavia.

2) Jedysan seems to be too big - look at map shown in link provided in second post after new AGCEEP map. You can see Black see there, here not.

3) Pereyaslav is also not completely visible

3b) form post on next page :
Code:
 It looks like previous "Krementjug" was merged into Jedysan. And while Jedysan belonged to OE, 
Krementjug belonged (over half of game) to Lithuania/Poland.

Matter of Kiev. When Poland signed treaty with Russia in 1667 left bank Ukraine (Pereyaslav/Poltava and non 
existing Krementjug) was ceded to Russia. On the right bank Russia got city Kiev and small strap of land, I can try 
to dig out exact area but looking at map (1:5millions) it looks like about 200 square kilometers (maybe little less?).
It is situation like with city Riga. 

My suggestion would be to merge Kiev with Pereyaslav and return "Krementjug" giving it name Zaporizhzhia (in Polish 
Zaporoze, this English transcription of Ukrainian word is great, Wild Fields or Zaporozhye using Russian name.

4)Chernigov, Smolensk and Polotsk are too big. Between Polotsk and Smolensk there should be province representing Vitebsk and Mstislav(old Mozyr?)

EDIT: if Chernigov represents duchy of Chernigov not Chernigov voivodhip than it is OK (more or less, but could give some land to Ukraine)

4b) Polotsk was involved in Livonian wars, so if smaller (and moved little north - see next point about Ostrov), Russia would get core on it, but Mscislav and Vitebsk remained in Lithuania till partitioning (part of old "Mozyr" province); as I proposed (until separate province is create) Polotsk should be renamed to Vitebsk (which together with Mstislav) was greater than Polotsk. Anyway as you will notice on vanilla map Polotsk also repreents Vitebsk (Vitebsk is main city of province Polotsk); but Herr Doctor did not agree ;( so Polotsk stays

5)Ostrov - half of province should belong to Pskov, second half to Lithuania (in 1419)

6) Masovia (on map Mazovia) and Warszawa (on map Warsaw) - frankly speaking Warszawa is main city of Mazovia, see this map for historical division of Masovia IMO better division of Masovia would be along North-South line with Warszawa on east and Plock on west
if we make veritcal split then historically Poland can gain western part in XVth century and eastern in 1526
6a) Warsaw should be more "shallow", without that southern inset

7) Chelmno represents part of Poland which was lost and later was recovered by Poland from Teutonic Order. Since Poland has to recover also Warmia and Pomerelia it could be worth considering removal of this province because there will be too many low tax provinces

7a) Instead of Chelmno Kalisz could be introduced, since it was much larger, so: merge Chelmno and Cuiavia and from Cuiavia, Sieradz and Poznan cut out Kalisz.

7b) Edit: As rybka proposed Chelmno could be merged with Warmia cutting narrow strip from Masuria (and that pointy tip could be moved to Masovia). It would make perfect sense as both provinces were gained by Poland in 1466 and would "save" Prussian tax and manpower. On the other hand there is problem of culture: Chelmno was polish and Warmia baltic.

7c) if Chelmno stays it should be smaller an not adjacent to Warsaw

8) since we are supposed to use original names not englisg transcriptions "Kuyavia" should be renamed "Kujawy"
OK, we are not supposed :( (but discussions in French thread turns French names all the time :( )

9) Historical province of Kraków is Malopolska (Lesser Poland) and of Poznan is Wielkopolska (Greater Poland); If it is possible I would prefer to see names of provinces not cities on map (however they are longer)

10) Silesia (464?) and Opole were created from old Silesia so tax for Opole will come from old Silesia

11) another Polish name if anyone is interested Masovia = Mazowsze

12) about names for Pomerelia and Hinterpommern in post 540 and others above; in German new map thread I have proposed to rename Pommern to Stettin and Hinterpommern to Pomerania

13) Ukraine should be shifted east (decreasing size of Chernigov and Kiev) while Volynia should be bigger on east - that way it will be also clear that is adjacent to Podolia

14) province Navagradak could be renamed Black Ruthenia but Herr Doctor does not like this name :) so agreement was reached and other provinces should be renamed
Red Ruthenia -> Lwów
Belarus -> Minsk

15) Sieradz should be smaller and Sandomirze bigger

16) name of Velikie Luki, IMO there should bo no "o" (Louki)
 
Last edited:

zdlugasz

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Herr Doctor said:
It is the one made by Polish EUII community in eufi forum. So as soon as you are from Polska, I thought you should know this one. ;)
Not active there :)

Well, as far as I checked Starodub indeed was later included to Smolnesk voivodship, but this only after 1619 peace. However, prior to it (and Russian annexation of the Smolensk and Chernigov lands in early 1500s) the region traditionally was part of the Chernigov ‘princedom’. Perhaps such division appeared because of the Polish incorporation of Ukraine in 1569, which created the precedent to claim Chernigov for the Polish Crown (as part of the “Kievin Crown” inheritance) and left Starodub for the Grand Duchy…

I guess this is explanation.
 

zdlugasz

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rybka said:
Do you plan to have Opole as a separate coutry-duchy, which is vassal of Bohemia?

Sometimes given to Polish princes (like one Kazimierz IV sons, king Wladyslaw Waza, Kazimierz Waza after abdication) or Transylvanian ruler Gabor Bethlen, part of it kept by Zygmunt Korybutowicz during hussite wars etc....
What a mess.
 

zdlugasz

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Garbon said:
This is news to me.


Well I have updated my original post:
Masovia (on map Mazovia) = Mazowsze
Podlasia = Podlasie
 

Garbon

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zdlugasz said:
Well I have updated my original post:
Masovia (on map Mazovia) = Mazowsze
Podlasia = Podlasie

By "this is news to me", I meant to convey that I don't actually think that is the standard. Seeing as how I'm the one who was fiddling with the map for the past 8 or so months, one would think I'd know that we were using original names and not English transcriptions, if that was the case.
 

zdlugasz

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Garbon said:
By "this is news to me", I meant to convey that I don't actually think that is the standard. Seeing as how I'm the one who was fiddling with the map for the past 8 or so months, one would think I'd know that we were using original names and not English transcriptions, if that was the case.

So I have misundertood you, sorry :)
Sometimes I get carried away. But amount of "extra" letters which appear especially in names of scandinavian scandinavian provinces led me to such assumption.

EDIT: However why not to use Latin names? All these "y" look strange for me.
 

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zdlugasz said:
Sometimes I get carried away. But amount of "extra" letters which appear especially in names of scandinavian scandinavian provinces led me to such assumption.

I think it because there is only a semi-standard. The same issue that is coming up with your discussion about the name for Pommernian provinces.

Frankly, I'm more a fan of english transcriptions as those are the names that we all in common can easily look up (seeing as how the mod is in english and all :D ). However, this hasn't been taken to the place that all names were converted, as a lot! have been inherited from MKJ's map.
 

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Garbon said:
I think it because there is only a semi-standard. The same issue that is coming up with your discussion about the name for Pommernian provinces.

Frankly, I'm more a fan of english transcriptions as those are the names that we all in common can easily look up (seeing as how the mod is in english and all :D ). However, this hasn't been taken to the place that all names were converted, as a lot! have been inherited from MKJ's map.

I can live with English transcriptions, however I would prefer Latin becuase English pronunciation is so differnet than Latin and Polish; thus I am really laughing when I watch American movies about Rome and hear American pronunciation of Latin words or sentences (the simplest example Ave Cesar)

Garbon said:
The only sort of places that I think would be good to use local names are places like Niederbayern, as "Lower Bavaria" just looks awful.

Or where the "English" name isn't really that common.

Where "English" names are not common? We use English here and not one of many local languages used e.g. in India. When I see local/modern name for some Indian provinces I am lost.
 

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zdlugasz said:
10) Silesia (464?) and Opole were created from old Silesia so I guess that they have to be considered jointly

But this would be not correct, opole was never part of Bohemian kingdom (only a vassal), until there was no independent bohemia! (i mean when bohemia was annexed by austria)

and personally i would rather see one more siliesian duchy instead of masuria, which always shared the same fate as prussia, so what is the point to divide prussia in this way?
 

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zdlugasz said:
Well I have updated my original post:
Masovia (on map Mazovia) = Mazowsze
Podlasia = Podlasie
Then I suppose Podlasia should be (in Ruthenian) Padlašša (or Padlaszsza)?
 

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rybka said:
But this would be not correct, opole was never part of Bohemian kingdom (only a vassal), until there was no independent bohemia! (i mean when bohemia was annexed by austria)

and personally i would rather see one more siliesian duchy instead of masuria, which always shared the same fate as prussia, so what is the point to divide prussia in this way?

What I meant is that on the old map was one Silesia and now we have two provinces. I did not want to say that Silesia and Opole have to share the same fate.

Anyway if it is one-province minor and vassal, Bohemia will diploannex them in the middle of XVth century.