Herr Doctor

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I already pointed somewhere that Courland and Semigalia once were separated Duchies: after the death of Gothard Kettlet on May 17, 1577 the Duchy was divided between his sons. Elder ome, Friedrich, received Semigallia and Wilhelm – Courland. However they opened into the struggle, which finished in 1615 with Wilhelm was eventually stripped of his ducal rights in favor of his brother (who become the Duke of the united Courland-Semigalia again) after a commission was appointed to reside over the murder of some local nobles (Gotthard and Magnus von Norde), who were acting for the King Sigismund III Vasa, overlord of both Duchies. So, for more than fifty years they were separate duchies.


And here the two maps with historical border between the Duchies of Semigalia and Courland on the old (by Gerard Sanson d’Abbelville, Paris 1659) and modern maps of Courland.
http://www.geocities.com/kirylaf/maps/map5.txt
http://www.geocities.com/kirylaf/maps/map6.txt
 

Aetius

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Five reasons (of different quality):
First that there is a river north of Courland that means you can't move the provinces south without changing the course of the river.
Second Courland was actually divided as above into a Courland and a Semigalia provice
Third it allows the historical shape to be retained
Fouth moving the Vilna borders will lead to a short cut to the provinces north compared to going from Samogitia, with Semigalia the provinces get the same distance.
Fifth it would mean that Courland gets two provinces enabling it to survive long, unlike what would happen if it was a one province minor.

The Baltic was an area with lot of fighting, Teutonic Knights, Danes, Swedes, Prussians, Novgorodans, Lithuanians, Poles, Russians etc, so it isn't really a wasted provice.
 

Castellon

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Halibutt said:
Is this a general warning or is it aimed at any particular person?
Cheers
Read the first line "This is the SECOND time I have had to post a GENERAL warning "
 

unmerged(2833)

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Classique said:
BTW, what does Samostijna mean, DarthMaur?
Samostijna means sovereign, independent, in Ukrainian. The sig is about all the events ('orange revolution') that hapenned few months ago in Ukraine.

Mad King James said:
Just a little note here: Random Poles PMing me and calling me a rascist isn't exactly going to motivate me to work on this project at all.

In fact I'm about one more insult away from deleting everything east of Silesia and washing my hands of the lot of you.
Eww, thats gross... :(

Mefisto said:
I think that there is no reason to place both Vistula and Oder on the map. In EU2 principles rivers have meaning of borders, tactical obstacles for advancing armies. In EU2 timeframe both mentioned rivers were rather connectors than splitters which cannot be displayed in EU2 reality. Vistula parted only Cuyavia from Chełmno, Oder connected lands on its both sides on all its length.
Well, in economical terms, rivers were connecting, but militairly, they were obstacles. There weren't many campaigns fought alongside Vistula in those times (at least not those i am aware of), but i remember that in 1410, crossing some river north of Vistula on its way to Grunwald was serious consideration for Jagiello... I think that the criteria for including a river shouldn't be if it played a role in military campaigns, but if its physically capable of doing so - and both Vistual and Oder were.

Mefisto said:
The shape of Małopolska (Lesser Poland) in the first version of MKJ's map was correct. Now Lublin, Chełm, Sandomierz and Kraków has strange borders and seem to be placed too much eastward in comparison with Masovia. Does MJK work with grid of meridians?
Oh yes, it was correct in the sense that it was drawn according to Cracov Voivodship, an administrative unit that does not play any part in EU engine and wouldn't matter when drawing new borders for conqueror.

Mefisto said:
I cannot agree. While we rather didn't maintain borders of feudal provinces or marchs, our voivodships' borders once established vere stable. Even now we are removing artificial administrative borders of PRL and come back to traditional ones.
Oh, they were internally , but not when it came to international border drawing - and internal divisions does not matter in EU game.

Mefisto said:
My impression was that MKJ focuses on wars and its consequences and maybe feudal handling with more or less random parts of inherited territories. In our case Warmia and Kiev and maybe Masovia fit to this scheme.
But every player of EU2 is the ruler of chosen realm and doesn't really want to lose an fragments of it. And governs with provinces, parts, not with unity. Exctly like in reality. Thats why counties, shires, woivodships or gubernias were established and why it lasted through centuries (or were meant to last). So I think that splitting countries to provinces on the basis of grid of real administrative districts helps to play, not messes.
My impression is that MKJ follows, strictly, historical internal divisions.

The problem with real administrative districsts is that they wouldn't matter when it comes to peace treaties and often screw gameplay (as with the case of 'shortcut' provinces and rivers/terrain placement.
 

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Norrefeldt said:
What is the historical reason to add it, and not just include that area in Vilnius and Dynaburg?
What Aetius said and Herr Doctor said.

Although, to be precise, not all of the western part of this province belonged to Duchy of Courland, there were lands (Ziemia Pilawska, can't remember the name) that were in the middle of the province and were not part of the Duchy. Similar to Alsace/Lorraine weird situation.
 

Halibutt

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DarthMaur said:
Well, in economical terms, rivers were connecting, but militairly, they were obstacles. There weren't many campaigns fought alongside Vistula in those times (at least not those i am aware of), but i remember that in 1410, crossing some river north of Vistula on its way to Grunwald was serious consideration for Jagiello... I think that the criteria for including a river shouldn't be if it played a role in military campaigns, but if its physically capable of doing so - and both Vistual and Oder were.
I don't know much about Oder, but the Vistula river was a notable obstacle for all the armies that passed through Poland in the EU timeframe. In 1410 Jagiello indeed had problems crossing it - so he crossed it on a wooden pontoon bridge, it was probable the first usage of a pontoon bridge since the antiquity. Other instances include the Swedes during the Deluge (their armies badly beaten between the Vistula and the San rivers because of high water and inability to evade the battle), the Russians organising the Massacre of Praga in order not to have to cross the river and finally crossing it in 1831, the Bolsheviks trying to cross it in the area of Torun and Bydgoszcz in 1920, the Russians trying to defend it in 1915... I'm sure there are countless other examples.

Oh yes, it was correct in the sense that it was drawn according to Cracov Voivodship, an administrative unit that does not play any part in EU engine and wouldn't matter when drawing new borders for conqueror.
Not necessarily so. Note that most administrative divisions of the PLC were retained by the new owners of the areas after the partitions. Compare the borders of the "South Prussia" with those of Kalisz and Poznan Voivodships.
Cheers
 

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OK. About Vistula - Halibutts notice about Deluge convinced me. (Jagiełło& Grunwald and Russians since XIX are other fables). So we should deal with thit river somehow.

The problem with real administrative districts is that they wouldn't matter when it comes to peace treaties and often screw gameplay (as with the case of 'shortcut' provinces and rivers/terrain placement.

Even if we divide countries into parts which changed ownership in history and unite the parts that remained in one hand in given period, we cannot emulate exact causes, prolongation and effects of wars and peace treaties in other way than strict chains of events. But in such way we would change the game into presentation of territorial evolution with no interactivity.
The best what we can gain is more or less exact behaviour of simulated states in sense of warmongering, directions of expansion or colonization. Changes in territories were caused by unique events which AI cannot re-create and the player doesn't want to. From this perspective the division of country into historical districts that lasted through centuries has much more sense for me.
But our points of view can differ, of course.
 
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BRAVEn

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Mad King James said:
All I can tell you is Mazovia wasn't exactly at its height in 1419 ;)
I shall call you by names but I'm too tired to even read the thread til the end ;)

Sooo, does it mean no?! :eek:
And why get rid of Vistula or Oder?
 

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DarthMaur said:
What Aetius said and Herr Doctor said.

Although, to be precise, not all of the western part of this province belonged to Duchy of Courland, there were lands (Ziemia Pilawska, can't remember the name) that were in the middle of the province and were not part of the Duchy. Similar to Alsace/Lorraine weird situation.
The Piltyn district? It's marked at this map (three disconnected parts): http://www.geocities.com/kirylaf/maps/map6.txt

In 1560-1583 it was ruled by Prince Magnus of Denmark (as the Bishop of Curonia, together with Osel), then (after his death) went under the mixed Polish-Lithuanian suzerainty to the Infliants voivodship as a powiet. In 1610s Duke Wilhelm Kettler of Courland wanted to redeem it but failed, and only his son famous Duke Jacob managed to do it in 1650s. Later, after the succession crisis of 1721 Piltyn again went under the direct Polish-Lithuanian control.

By the other words, it will be nice to have it to simulate all these events… ;)
 

Aetius

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Getting in disjointed pieces I think is hopeless. If we start with that its going to be hell in Transylvania ;)
 

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Aetius said:
Getting in disjointed pieces I think is hopeless. If we start with that its going to be hell in Transylvania ;)
No, we can create only biggest and most important part of Piltyn at the north. There is no need to do all these odd pieces. ;)
 

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vilkouak said:
Hello,

I think two provinces in Courland are enough. Piltyń will be too small and there are always evetns to help us silmulating some problems.

Vv
Well, if you will take a look on the present MKJ’s Courland province you will see that it will be not so small real (nearly the same size as Rugen or Ostfriesland provinces). But I also agree that it is possible to simulate it with events (it is only pity that none of AGCEEP team ever gave any attention to those I posted at these forum about a year ago ;)).
 

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Arturro said:
No, please, no more tiny provinces. On latest version of MKJ map, Memel and Chelm are too small, unplayable. Or those provinces should be bigger, or removed. They are to small to put manufactory and army. No more Bahrein size province, please!
they are playable.
 

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Arturro said:
No, please, no more tiny provinces. On latest version of MKJ map, Memel and Chelm are too small, unplayable. Or those provinces should be bigger, or removed. They are to small to put manufactory and army. No more Bahrein size province, please!

They are bigger than many HRE's or Balkan's provinces.
 

nalivayko

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Hi. I have been invited by Arturro to visit this thread and assist with names and shapes (hopefully) of Ukrainian provinces. I am a big history fan, as all of you are, of course, moderately known aar writer, had worked on couple of Ukrainian scenarios before. May be of some use (me, not the scenarios) :D

Found couple of good maps:

http://sumy.net.ua/History/map/map10.jpg

Year 1569

Things to note: four well defined Ukr. provinces in the West: Galicia, Volynia, Podolia, Bratslav (I really don't mind Polish version of Braclav, but Galitzen... that one just hurts in vanilla).

vanilla krementjug has got to be Zaporozh'e or Zaporozhia (whichever way you prefer) with capital of Sich, not Kodak.

http://sumy.net.ua/History/map/map13.jpg


Year 1649. Helps to define Eastern Ukraine a bit better.

MKJ's map places Poltava to the south of Kiev: should be to the east. In its place I could suggest the city of Chihirin - one time capital of Cossacks and well-known regional capital in RL. It would go right in between Zaporozhian Sich and Kiev with Poltava to the east of Kiev.

Well, I think this is good enough for starters. I would like to get some input first. Feel free to ask any questions about Ukraine that you have. Meanwhile, I'll try to read through 20 pages of this thread to see if there was any other references to this topic. Then I'll try to compile a list of provinces and try to draw a map or two.

*EDIT: after reviewing the thread I really liked the first map proposed by The Master.

8 provinces total for Ukraine:

Galicia/Rus - Lviv
Volynia/Volyn - Lutsk
Podolia - Kamenec (does not have to be Kamenets-Podol'skiy, way too long)
Kiev - Kiev
Braclav - Braclav
Poltava - Poltava
Chernigov - Chernigov
Zaporozhie - Sich (too important to be replaced by Kodak)

I would not replace Jedisan (not really Ukraine at the time) with Wild Fields. I do not see other alternatives at the moment.
 
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