New Map: Japan

[whan]

I have seen some of the estimates of the census of the times, but it's hard to believe that in 500 or so years, Japanese population only increased 5 times, whereas Chinese population increased about nearly 5 times in just the 20th cenutry.

 

[unmerged(2456)]

Two words:
Idustrial Technology

 

[|AXiN|]

That, and there's arseloads more people and land in China to start off with - Japan imports huge amounts of food, wheras I don't think China has such a large requirement due to having lots and lots of cultivated land.

 

[whan]

There are more people in China to start with, but I'm saying the population growth rates cannot be that far off, and Japan's 1% growth sounds off. I believe the census numbers from Japan in that period are off. Japan has food problems now, but in the 15th century it did not. The whole country was agrarian at the time. That is a lot of square-mileage for 20 million people, not to mention all the food harvested from the ocean. Also, Japan didn't suffer from catastrophic wars that decimated large portions of the population.

 

[Mad King James]

There are more people in China to start with, but I'm saying the population growth rates cannot be that far off, and Japan's 1% growth sounds off. I believe the census numbers from Japan in that period are off. Japan has food problems now, but in the 15th century it did not. The whole country was agrarian at the time. That is a lot of square-mileage for 20 million people, not to mention all the food harvested from the ocean. Also, Japan didn't suffer from catastrophic wars that decimated large portions of the population.

Erm... yes and no. While definitely isolationist, you couldn't really call them peaceful, what with all the invasions of everyone even remotely nearby and all.

 

[Aetius]

Whan: I don't think China's population didn't increase by five times during the 20th century, it went from about 400 million in 1900 to about 1 300 million in 2000, so about 3 times . Note that the first number is perhaps dubious though. If you use 1850 as a start date the census then said the population was 450 million, so the population didn't grow by much.
Japan went from about 47 million in 1900 to 127 million in 2000. Not a huge difference percentagewise in that case between the two countries. If you include 1852 then the census said the population was about 27 million, the Japanese population grew faster then.

Source:
http://www.library.uu.nl/wesp/populstat/Asia/asia.html

Edit:
Zhonggou suffers from some problems from a historical point of view. First: wasn't it more common to use Ming or Qing than Zhoungguo(中國 or 中国) or Zhina (支那, 脂那 or 至那)? The latter term isn't used any more since the Second Sino-Japanese, but it was used before then. Second: using Ming and Qing would solve problems during the war between the Qing and Ming gamewise. China should IMO be replaced by Ming and Qing, if possible.

 

[unmerged(2456)]

Erm... yes and no. While definitely isolationist, you couldn't really call them peaceful, what with all the invasions of everyone even remotely nearby and all.

It also wasn't a true isolationist country. It still had legitimate trade with the Netherlands and smuggling was quite rampant. And piracy was still continung, albiet abated, in this era.

 

[Aetius]

Well they only traded with Netherlands of the western nations, they continued trade with Korea, Ryukyu, China, Ayutthaya (e.g. cannons), Songkhla etc after the country was "closed". They stopped trading with most of the Asian countries by the 18th century though.

 

[unmerged(8215)]

More than 70% of Japanese land is mountainous, not suited for rice-based agriculture very well.
Except for coastal areas, eating fishmeat was a sort of luxury until a more sophisticated style of transportation means (read railroad) became available. Raw fishmeat sushi was invented in the late 19th century. In the Edo Era, fishmeat was mainly used as fertilizer, which was the best for ricefields in those days.

 

[Spruce]

sorry to hi-jack thread - but what is the meaning of all these maps - can you now play EU2 on one new map (MKJ map) or on different maps,

sorry for being so ignorent, but I'm more of a lurker in this subforum

 

[Kelvin]

Not yet, but when The Map Masters MKJ and Xia finish it, it'll be playable... of course, after someone makes the campaign based on that map, most likely AGCEEP team.

 

[|AXiN|]

At the moment it looks likely that the AGCEEP will adopt MKJ's map, what with the complete lack of alternatives and the fairly broad support for that map, but it'll take a long time yet, and be a huge amount of work.

 

[whan]

Whan: I don't think China's population didn't increase by five times during the 20th century, it went from about 400 million in 1900 to about 1 300 million in 2000, so about 3 times . Note that the first number is perhaps dubious though. If you use 1850 as a start date the census then said the population was 450 million, so the population didn't grow by much.
Japan went from about 47 million in 1900 to 127 million in 2000. Not a huge difference percentagewise in that case between the two countries. If you include 1852 then the census said the population was about 27 million, the Japanese population grew faster then.

Source:
http://www.library.uu.nl/wesp/populstat/Asia/asia.html

That is a nice site. My numbers were probably wrong from the start. I always heard that the population of China was around 350 million at the turn of the century, and 430 million at the end of WWII. But still, if Japanese population was 27 million in 1850, that's almost zero growth for more than 200 years.

Edit:
Zhonggou suffers from some problems from a historical point of view. First: wasn't it more common to use Ming or Qing than Zhoungguo(中國 or 中国) or Zhina (支那, 脂那 or 至那)? The latter term isn't used any more since the Second Sino-Japanese, but it was used before then. Second: using Ming and Qing would solve problems during the war between the Qing and Ming gamewise. China should IMO be replaced by Ming and Qing, if possible.

Well, the term Zhongguo, Middle Kingdom, is supposed to have been there since very early on, as early as the Chou (Zhou) Dynasty. China and Sina are thought to have come from the Middle East to describe the Chin (Qin) Dynasty. It appeared in Persia and Ancient Greece. I believe Ptolemy even used Sinae to describe what lied at the end of the world.

I don't think the Ming and Qing are good terms as Qing would be a term for a Chinese dynasty that had not yet exist in the 15th century.

 

[Norrefeldt]

There might still be some very minor changes here and there, but the version that is already out is sufficient basis for publishing in the various threads. No time to lose. Try to focus on the issues at hand, changes to the map are very very likely to be included in the first release. It will all be for later releases.
For this thread, just discuss provinces numbered in white! The rest will be in other threads. Maps without the chicken scratch will replace this one as soon as I get my hands on it.

We need help with

• Make conversion list for old ID - new ID(s). This will be used for converting knownprovinces lists in 300 country files. They should be configured like this to be readble to Aegnor's program:
  
  One old to one new conversion:
  

  oldID1-newID1 #Old name
  oldID2-newID2 #Old name
  oldID3-newID3 #Old name
  etc..

  One old to multiple new conversion:
  

  oldID1-newID1 #Old name
  oldID1-newID2 
  oldID1-newID3 
  etc..

  One old can convert into several new ones, but never the opposite! It's no exact science as it's only for this sole purpose.
  If there is no new one that fits, as if it's been covered in PTI, write 0.
  
• Make the province.csv entries.
• Make the 1419.inc entries. (Not the knownprovinces part.)
• Make revolt.txt entries.

As default provinces coming from a split old EU2 province in the new map get the combined tax values of the old one +1. Countries need to invest some to get the value out of the provinces, and this addition is an easy way to make up for it. There's already too much manpower on the map, and armies are several times the historical ones, and require no investment, so I don't think manpower should be affected.

Example: Old province A (tax 7) is divided in X and Y. Their combined tax values on the new map is 9.