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Garbon said:
I don't know anything about it, but the FF had Toulouse and Montpellier as owned by Foix-Bearn.
That would be a bad idea...

Ambassador said:
in your map, Avesnois should better be given to Burgundy, to represent the country of Rethel early on, rather than to Brabant as part of the county of Hainaut.
agreed, unless we end up using Hainault at gamestart.

renaud vibien said:
The count of Rethel was not the duke of Burgundy but one of his cousin. It's the same situation that Brabant so it's a better approximation to give the province to Brabant because it's in the same relation to Burgundy.
Since Philip II Count of Nevers and Rethel was the son of Philip II Duke of Burgundy, and it was through the former's progeny that the counties and titles were inherited, it seems more logical to interpret Rethel (and Nevers) as Burgundian.

renaud vibien said:
The county of Nevers was not part of the Burgundian State. It was a french fief whom the count (a cousin of the duke of Burgundy) was allied to the Burgundian state until 1464 and to the French state after.
Nevers is as much a fief of France as the county of bourgogne is though. At gamestart, the count of Nevers is the son of the youngest son of Philip II Duke of Burgundy. I agree that Nevers should be interpreted as Burgundian at gamestart.

renaud vibien said:
If we have a Nivernais province, it's owned by Burgundy from 1419 to 1464 and is inherited by event by France in 1464.
Well, if Nevers isn't the only county in our EU2 province, then we could perhaps put it into more context and represent John's alienation as revoltrisk and less tax value.

renaud vibien said:
There is three reason to separate Troyes from Auxerre :
- The county of Auxerre was given de jure by Bedford to Philipp the Good in 1424 and the county of Champagne in 1429.
- In 1429, Charles VII taked Troyes but not Auxerre. After that until the death of Charles the Rash in 1477, Auxerre stayed in burgundian hands.
- The map is for a game 1419-1820. From 1477 to 1791 Troyes was part of the Province of Champagne and Auxerre of the Province of Bourgogne.
The third one is the decider here. The first two are really only one reason which is invalidated by the fact that with the current Auxerrois sitatuaion, we'd still get a homologous problem when John supports Louis XI rather than his Duke and cousin as you pointed out.

Here's something that's more or less what's already out there: County of Nevers, Auxerre, and Tonnerre lumped together and labelled either Auxerrois or Nivernais (or Nevers, whatever you want), then we split Champagne into 2, as has been done, leave their names as they are (which is really bad IMO -- there's gotta be some other suggestion out there), but we alter the border of these three provinces to make them look better and to better represent the situation between ENG and BUR. :D

We could play around with the Auxerrois-Bourgogne border to your heart's content...

suggestionkv8.jpg


renaud vibien said:
Foix-Bear (later Foix-Béarn-Navarre) had one at a lesser degree than the dukes of Burgundy and Britanny but at a far greater degree than Armagnac, Orleans or Bourbon.
Orleans is admittedly weak, but currently I would not place Armagnac and Bourbon in a different boat than Foix.

renaud vibien said:
But Normandy neither revolted in EU2 times with the objectives of becoming independent
If Foix ownes the Langedoc at gamestart, we will have no choice but to grant Normandy independence at gamestart as a vassal of ENG. The de facto arrangement in Normandy at gamestart with respect to England already warrants independence, IMHO.

renaud vibien said:
The dauphin Charles came in person in Languedoc to demote him and he didn't dare to resist. So the best model of this situation is to have Toulouse and Montpellier owned by Foix-Béarn (but without core on it) and to have events where Dauphiné/Armagnac Party can inherit them.
I disagree, this opens up a can of worms in the world of Lieutenant-Generals, Captain-Generals, governors, etc. The Duke of Burgundy's governors in the lowlands, for example, Warwick, York and Somerset successively in Normandy, and more so with Huntingdon and Gloucester in Guyenne - all had more authority and responsibilities than Foix had as a Lieutenant-General in Languedoc. Foix's abuses of his appointment should be modelled with events, IMO.

The southwestern theatre is quite exciting though, and increasing the number players in this region (adding Armagnac for exmaple) makes things amore interesting. I agree that events need to be scripted to model the developments along the marches. We could free Guyenne at gamestart, for de facto reasons; the authority given to the Lieutenant-Generals in Guyenne included financial, judicial, and diplomatic carte-blanche. Her Lieutenant's negotiated truces with her neighbours and indeed even Charles VII, IIRC. This region was very quiet for large periods of time for these reasons (whether or not there were more distal reasons for peace between Guyenne and her immediate French neighbours and Charles himself is irrelevant for the argument, the point is the authority is there).

Ambassador said:
I know, but a province doesn't have to represent the same thing along the 400 years
Agreed.
renaud vibien said:
I desagree with you on this subject. I think the name of the province and of his city is relevant...
If a province needs to be bent and twisted slightly one way or another in order to better represent a certain situation in a given time period (or another) then this helps us make use of thw limitations of province-based maps in general. As long as the framework for each situation is understood and agreed upon in the regional thread, then awesome. Keeping province interpretations rigid for all provinces throughout the entirey of the game is simply begging for unhappiness all around, because no one person or even a group of people at this formative time is going to be able to come up with all of the potential uses for 400 years of gameplay ;)

Ambassador said:
Might be. Provence would have a hard time keeping Bar, but it would open more possibilities for the Anjou/Lorraine sequence.
Would be nice.

renaud vibien said:
...is "Artois" province really Artois or Hainaut ?
It wouldn't matter as long as we understood (and made it understood) which interpretation suited which time period best. Artois's province interpretation was argued in the first few pages of the Holland thread, IIRC, MKJ sought a more flexible framework.
 
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I'll answer only where I deem there's a problem.
ribbon22 said:
Nevers is as much a fief of France as the county of bourgogne is though. At gamestart, the count of Nevers is the son of the youngest son of Philip II Duke of Burgundy. I agree that Nevers should be interpreted as Burgundian at gamestart.
Properly, the county of Burgundy is Franche-Comté, and is imperial fief, not french. It's the duchy that is a french fief. And I stress the word fief : it wasn't an appanage.

ribbon22 said:
Here's something that's more or less what's already out there: County of Nevers, Auxerre, and Tonnerre lumped together and labelled either Auxerrois or Nivernais (or Nevers, whatever you want), then we split Champagne into 2, as has been done, leave their names as they are (which is really bad IMO -- there's gotta be some other suggestion out there), but we alter the border of these three provinces to make them look better and to better represent the situation between ENG and BUR. :D
We had proposed North and South Champagne, but this was rejected. The split of the province is for gameplay and gamebalance, mostly : historically, there wasn't a clear-cut split of the province. Hence the lack of better name.

ribbon22 said:
Orleans is admittedly weak, but currently I would not place Armagnac and Bourbon in a different boat than Foix.

If Foix ownes the Langedoc at gamestart, we will have no choice but to grant Normandy independence at gamestart as a vassal of ENG. The de facto arrangement in Normandy at gamestart with respect to England already warrants independence, IMHO.
The situation of Normandy and Foix is different. Foix already merits its independence due to the Navarre sequence. Normandy would be useful only during the HYW. NRM wasn't even remotely independent during the english rule either, while Foix-Bearn were not fully faithful to the Dauphin.

ribbon22 said:
I disagree, this opens up a can of worms in the world of Lieutenant-Generals, Captain-Generals, governors, etc. The Duke of Burgundy's governors in the lowlands, for example, Warwick, York and Somerset successively in Normandy, and more so with Huntingdon and Gloucester in Guyenne - all had more authority and responsibilities than Foix had as a Lieutenant-General in Languedoc. Foix's abuses of his appointment should be modelled with events, IMO.
Not the same. Foix was much more independent than the governors that were appointed from other families, be it in France, Burgundy or England. The other governor-like didn't forget who their master was. Since Foix should already be independent, better use it to represent the situation.

ribbon22 said:
The southwestern theatre is quite exciting though, and increasing the number players in this region (adding Armagnac for exmaple) makes things amore interesting. I agree that events need to be scripted to model the developments along the marches. We could free Guyenne at gamestart, for de facto reasons; the authority given to the Lieutenant-Generals in Guyenne included financial, judicial, and diplomatic carte-blanche. Her Lieutenant's negotiated truces with her neighbours and indeed even Charles VII, IIRC. This region was very quiet for large periods of time for these reasons (whether or not there were more distal reasons for peace between Guyenne and her immediate French neighbours and Charles himself is irrelevant for the argument, the point is the authority is there).
Guyenne's LG wasn't an already important vassal by itself before being appointed LG. That's a difference.
Armagnacs were the Dauphin's party. They can't be a separate country, unless the Dauphin rejected them (but then, the Dauphin would have lost all his supporters). And Orleans and Bourgon were a part of the Armagnac party. In fact, it'd be better if the Dauphin country is called Armagnac instead, in the historical situations.
 
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@ Garbon : why not use the accentuated forms on the map, and the ordinary letters in province.csv ? In-game searches use the names from province.csv as basis, not what is depicted on the map. As long as it is made clear (perhaps on the AGCEEP website), the correct forms could be used for the map and all players would be able to make their searches, be them in-game or in Google.
 

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Ribbon said:
Look, I understand in a subseqent post that you kindof apologized for this, which is appreciated. Nevertheless, if I read any more comments of this nature from you, I will not take it as kindly as Garbon did -- I will not hesitate to report it.
got it sir :)
 

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Ambassador said:
@ Garbon : why not use the accentuated forms on the map, and the ordinary letters in province.csv ? In-game searches use the names from province.csv as basis, not what is depicted on the map. As long as it is made clear (perhaps on the AGCEEP website), the correct forms could be used for the map and all players would be able to make their searches, be them in-game or in Google.

I'm not doing day two of this. If you look, that has already been suggested. This is all have to say about this cosmetic issue for the time being.
 

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Garbon said:
I'm not doing day two of this. If you look, that has already been suggested. This is all have to say about this cosmetic issue for the time being.

It's absolutly not a cosmetic issue, you know...

It's just an accuracy issue.

Will the AGCEEP map look like it is correct, or will it look like it was written by an illiterate"?
 
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Captain Frakas said:
Will the AGCEEP map look like correct or will it just look like writed by illetrate.
You mean, "Will the AGCEEP map look like it is correct, or will it look like it was written by an illiterate"?

I'm sorry, but you were asking for that...
 

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Garbon said:
Like I said, I don't have a problem with "Ile de France," nor do I have a problem with "Trois Eveches." ;)
OK. It's fine with me. The mod use local toponymes but anglicized (= without acccents and other diacritic signs) because the mod is in english. It's logical.

I'm sorry I have misunderstood you're position. I believed that you wanted more radical changes.
 
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Isaac Brock said:
But the province was in the Empire for most of the game. Shouldn't it be "Mosel"? :)
Don't confound Empire and Deutchland. The greater part of the province was speaking a Welche dialect, not a deutch one. OK, I see you was keeding.

"Ile de France" is completely different from "Trois Eveches" IMHO. "Ile de France" is standard English usage. In an English language book the "Trois Eveches" will usually be referred to as the "Three Bishoprics"
Ok. But Garbon seems to accept "Trois Eveches" but not "Three Bishoprics".

Not really my business, but I like "Moselle" too.
I desagree with Fate and you. From 1419 to 1791, for 92,5% of the game, Moselle only designs a river, not a territory. It's not only that the name become official in 1791, it was created as a name fo a territory.

As a rule, the names of deparments given under the Revolution and the Empire (for exemple : Vendée, Morbihan, Ardennes) are useless for EU.
 

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doktarr said:
You mean, "Will the AGCEEP map look like it is correct, or will it look like it was written by an illiterate"?

I'm sorry, but you were asking for that...


Yes, it's what I mean !

And unlike some peoples, It seem that I can recognise my error and correct it...
 

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ribbon22 said:
Since Philip II Count of Nevers and Rethel was the son of Philip II Duke of Burgundy, and it was through the former's progeny that the counties and titles were inherited, it seems more logical to interpret Rethel (and Nevers) as Burgundian.
Two points of view :
1) Artois is ruled by the the duke of Burgundy. Brabant is ruled by a cousin of the duke of Burgundy. Rethel is ruled by a cousin of the duke of Burgundy. The relationship of Rethel too Burgundy is the same that the one of Brabant and so Rethel must be treated like Brabant.
2) The count of Rethel is closer to the duke of Burgundy than the the duke of Brabant is. So Rethel can be represented as belonging to the Burgundian State.
But these points of view are related to the county of Rethel. It's "Avesnois" what is written on the map, not "Rethelois"
There was a discussion on the FF wether it would be better to have a two provinces Hainault (north Hainault around Mons and South Hainault around Valenciennes/Avesnes) or a one province Hainault and a Rethelois province. It was decided that Rethelois is a too tiny territory to be represented on the map. Of course we can rule that this decision was an error and redraw the map. But many, many principalties in Germany are not represented and are bigger than the county of Rethel.

ribbon22 said:
Since Philip II Count of Nevers and Rethel was the son of Philip II Duke of Burgundy, and it was through the former's progeny that the counties and titles were inherited, it seems more logical to interpret Rethel (and Nevers) as Burgundian. Nevers is as much a fief of France as the county of bourgogne is though. At gamestart, the count of Nevers is the son of the youngest son of Philip II Duke of Burgundy. I agree that Nevers should be interpreted as Burgundian at gamestart.
Yes. There was a discussion on the FF to chhoose between a Nivernais province (that would be burgundian from 1419 -for the reason you explain- to 1464 and french after) and an Auxerrois province (that would be burgundian vassal from 1419 to 1424 and burgundian from 1424 to 1477 and french after). It was decided that it was the second solution what strenghtened Burgundy the most. I also proposed an Avallonnais province (instead of Auxerrois or Nivernais) what would be burgundian from the start to the end (exactly as Bourgogne province). But Auxerre is a more important city than Avallon (or Nevers).

ribbon22 said:
Well, if Nevers isn't the only county in our EU2 province, then we could perhaps put it into more context and represent John's alienation as revoltrisk and less tax value.
Good idea.

ribbon22 said:
split Champagne into 2, as has been done, leave their names as they are (which is really bad IMO -- there's gotta be some other suggestion out there)
"North Champagne" and "South Champagne" !
I'm sure everibody here says "North Korea" and "South Korea" without problem with these names, no ?

We could play around with the Auxerrois-Bourgogne border to your heart's content...

suggestionkv8.jpg
With this disposition we can't go from Paris to Troyes without going thru Reims and we can go from Orleans too Reims without going thru Troyes. It's not very realistic. And the sacre's journey of Charles VII and Joan of Arc would be less logical.

Orleans is admittedly weak, but currently I would not place Armagnac and Bourbon in a different boat than Foix.
The realism of independance of french fiefs in EU term is IMO :
1) Burgundy-Artois-Flandern
2) Britanny
3) Foix
4) Anjou-Maine
5) Bar
6) Bourbon
7) Armagnac
8) Rethel-Nevers
9) Alençon
10) Orléans
11) Albret
12) Angoulême
13) Nemours
... (many others)

I think that only the three or four first deserve a tag.

A solution I proposed was too merge Orleans, Bourbon (Auvergne-Limousin), Armagnac (and perhaps Anjou, Maine, Bar) in a Feudal French country. This country would be present only in particular periods of weak central authority when lesser feudals (weaker than the three-four bigger) were suffisantly independant (at start when the loyalty of Dauphin Charles to the Armagnac party was not sealed in John's blood, if the cause of Charles VII collapsed circa 1430, if the Praguerie, the League of Public Weasel or the Foolish War went out of control.

The map for 1419 I made with this idea was posted here recently by ?.

If Foix ownes the Langedoc at gamestart, we will have no choice but to grant Normandy independence at gamestart as a vassal of ENG. The de facto arrangement in Normandy at gamestart with respect to England already warrants independence, IMHO.
Don't understand. England and France are in active war. Normandy is in the process of being military conquered by Henry V. The situation is totaly different. Owned by France, controlled by England is appropriated.

I disagree, this opens up a can of worms in the world of Lieutenant-Generals, Captain-Generals, governors, etc. The Duke of Burgundy's governors in the lowlands, for example, Warwick, York and Somerset successively in Normandy, and more so with Huntingdon and Gloucester in Guyenne - all had more authority and responsibilities than Foix had as a Lieutenant-General in Languedoc. Foix's abuses of his appointment should be modelled with events, IMO.
The situation is not the same (except for York where there is some similarities).
Jean is 1) the ruler of a territorial principalty and 2) the governor of a province that he rule in his own interest.
It's a situation similar to the Somme Towns after the treaty of Arras in 1435. Picardie was not de jure alienated from the royal domain,the goverment of these was given to Phillip the Good. But in EU term, we make France give Picardie to Burgundy.

If a province needs to be bent and twisted slightly one way or another in order to better represent a certain situation in a given time period (or another) then this helps us make use of thw limitations of province-based maps in general. As long as the framework for each situation is understood and agreed upon in the regional thread, then awesome. Keeping province interpretations rigid for all provinces throughout the entirey of the game is simply begging for unhappiness all around, because no one person or even a group of people at this formative time is going to be able to come up with all of the potential uses for 400 years of gameplay ;)
I totally desagree with you (and Ambassador) on that and it's explain some desagreement on some provinces owning.

I agree that what you advocate was inevitable with the vanilla map because of its flaws. But, the purpose of the new map is to put an end of these flaws.

For exemple, in the new map, Artois is separated from Hainaut. And Cambrai is not represented.
My position is : Who posess Artois in reality is the owner of Artois province in the game, who posess Mons in reality is the owner of Mons province in the game, who posess Avesnois is the owner of Avesnois province in the game, and who posess Cambrai in reality is irrelevant for the ownership of Artois, Mons and Avesnois provinces in the game.

It's simpler and coherent.

If not, Mons province is not Mons province but Mons-Tournaisis province, Avesnois province is not Avesnois province but Avesnois-Valenciennois-Cambraisis-Guise-Rethelois-Sedan province, Luxembourg province is not Luxembourg province but Luxembourg-Bouillon province, and so on.


It wouldn't matter as long as we understood (and made it understood) which interpretation suited which time period best. Artois's province interpretation was argued in the first few pages of the Holland thread, IIRC, MKJ sought a more flexible framework.
Yes. And in dispise of that, people scripted event for the EU province as they wanted. Some events were made about Artois, others about Hainaut, without logic. It's the open door to incoherence.

I'm ok to say "Cambrai is not represented by a province in the game but when Cambrai is effectively controlled by Burgundians/Habsbourgs we can give a +1 to tax value to Avesnois province" but not "sometimes we give/scratch core on Avesnois province because of the rights on Hainaut, sometimes because of the rights on Cambrai".

There is a Cambrai province on MyMap, it's a different choice than ours. Not the same with a different name. They have a one province Hainaut and a one province Cambrai. We have a two provinces Hainaut and Cambrai is not represented.
 
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The duke of Bar was vassal of the Emperor for all what was east of the Meuse river (the smaller part) and of the king of France for all what was west of the Meuse river (the greater part including the capital Bar-le-Duc). If Joan is called "la Lorraine" it's because she was from french Barrois. The duke-bishop was the first great noble to believe in Joan. The former duke was killed in the french-armagnac army at Azincourt.

Edit : where is the question I answer ? :wacko:
 
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ribbon22 said:
when John supports Louis XI rather than his Duke and cousin as you pointed out.
Not important for the modelization but Phillip the Good (and later Charles the Rash) was not the duke of Jean.
The county of Nevers is not vassal of the duchy of Burgundy but directly of the kingdom of France. (Same thing for Rethel : this county is vassal of the county of Champagne what is part of the Royal Domain).
 

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renaud said:
1) Artois is ruled by the the duke of Burgundy. Brabant is ruled by a cousin of the duke of Burgundy. Rethel is ruled by a cousin of the duke of Burgundy. The relationship of Rethel too Burgundy is the same that the one of Brabant and so Rethel must be treated like Brabant.
Besides the relation, IMO we should also consider the circumstances surrounding how each cousin came to their respective inheritance. It seems that Duke John of BUR granted the county of Rethel and Nevers to his younger brother Philippe after coming into its possession in his own right;Duke John landed Rethel by birthright, and should have been his to do with as he pleased, like granting it out. On the other hand Antoine simply landed Brabant by virtue that the Duchess of Brabant's niece was his mother. His mother died before the Duchess did, and so by agreement he ended up with a Duchy.

renaud vibien said:
Of course we can rule that this decision was an error and redraw the map
This would be preferable, IMO. Nevertheless, if I had to choose, I'd choose a province to represent Hainault rather than Rethel, particualrly if we would free Hainault at gamestart to represent something to fight for.

renaud vibien said:
"North Champagne" and "South Champagne" !
OK, I'm sold on it. The more I think about it the more I like it. Champagne was a massive province, so why not break it into two and literally call them North and South Champagne, respectively.

Is anyone seriously against that?

renaud vibien said:
With this disposition we can't go from Paris to Troyes without going thru Reims and we can go from Orleans too Reims without going thru Troyes. It's not very realistic. And the sacre's journey of Charles VII and Joan of Arc would be less logical.
Not being able to go from Paris to Troyes without first going through the southern bit of Northern Champagne makes sense though. You're right about Joan's journey being less logical.

OK, same map but now Southern Champagne's northern border extends to vitry, then runs southwest through Brienne and then west towards the Sienne and upriver to where the Sienne and Yonne split. That way, everything wll seem logical, and Champagne no longer looks like a cheese wedge :D and we avoid the Troyes stigma by renaming Troyes province to Southern Champagne and Reims becomes Northern Champagne. Morever, the newly drawn provinces should be larger and more ammenable to the longer names.

renaud vibien said:
Normandy is in the process of being military conquered by Henry V.
Normandy has been conquered at gamestart, and H. V has already done much to reestablish and entrench Ducal authority and ancient Ducal priviliges. The fact that H. V is the Duke is about the only strike against NRM being free at gamestart. It's not a significant amount of time, but certainly when H. V dies the state should be freed.

I'd prefer Foix's appointments in Languedoc be represented via events. He did not have the same priviliges in Languedoc as the English governor of Normandy had.
 

Garbon

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ribbon22 said:
OK, I'm sold on it. The more I think about it the more I like it. Champagne was a massive province, so why not break it into two and literally call them North and South Champagne, respectively.

Is anyone seriously against that?

*nods*

The preferrable standard is to minimize / ideally not have any North/South provinces.
 

Truchses

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Garbon said:
*nods*

The preferrable standard is to minimize / ideally not have any North/South provinces.
I have often thought about splitting Champagne, simply to make it harder to conquer. In the northwest was the county of Valois. I thought it could be represented as home/core province of the Valois.

Otherwise you could choose names of important cities or fortifications: Reims, Troyes, Verdun. The battle system of EU2 is very old. An army in a province covers the whole province, even if it is only on a specific location, probably sieging a specific city or fortress. And once this falls, the whole province falls, no matter how many cities or fortresses there are left. This makes it more logical to have provinces according to fortified cities instead to regions, like in Russia.
 

unmerged(1385)

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I have proposed to complete some informations for the new map to the french forum.






This is the result :

Old Map

Code:
[B]Id	Province	Culture		Climate	Terrain	Type	ManPow	Income	HRE	Goods	Region		City		1419	1520	1648	Correspondance with New map[/B]
337	Friesen		dutch		3	plains		4	11	yes	cloths	Low Countries	Ljouwert	FRI	GEL	HOL	419 (Friesland)
338	Geldre		german		3	swamp		5	13	yes	grain	Low Countries	Arnhem		GEL	GEL	HOL	415 (Geldre) + 416 (Overjissel)
339	Holland		dutch		3	swamp		5	17	yes	fish	Low Countries	Amsterdam	HAU	SPA	HOL	414 (Holland)
340	Zeeland		dutch		3	swamp		5	15	yes	fish	Low Countries	Vlissingen	HAU	SPA	HOL	412 (Staat Brabant) + 413 (Zeeland)
374	Alsace		german		5	forests/hills	6	10	yes	wine	Germany		Strassburg	STR	STR	STR	350 (Nordgau) + 351 (Sundgau)
375	Lorraine	french		5	forests/hills	6	9	yes	metal	Germany		Nancy		LOR	LOR	LOR	345 (Lorraine) + 344 (Bar)
376	Champagne	french		5	plains		5	13	no	wine	France		Reims		FRA	FRA	FRA	338 (Troyes) + 343 (Reims)
377	Luxembourg	german		5	forests/hills	5	10	yes	metal	Low Countries	Luxemburg	LUX	SPA	SPA	342 (Luxembourg) + 1349 (Liege)
378	Brabant		dutch		3	plains		5	15	yes	cloths	Low Countries	Brussels	HAU	SPA	SPA	341 (Avesnois) + 1350 (Antwerpen)
379	Artois		french		3	plains		6	10	yes	cloths	Low Countries	Mons		HAU	SPA	SPA	1348 (Mons) + 341 (Avesnois)
380	Flandern	dutch		3	plains		6	17	no	cloths	Low Countries	Antwerpen	BUR	SPA	SPA	409 (Lille) + 410 (Brugge)
382	Calais		french		3	plains		5	7	no	fish	France		Calais		ENG	ENG	FRA	339 (Calais)
383	Picardie	french		3	plains		5	6	no	cloths	France		Amiens		FRA	FRA	FRA	337 (Picardie) + 340 (Artois)
384	Caux		french		3	plains		5	6	no	fish	France		Rouen		FRA	FRA	FRA	335 (Rouen)
385	Ile de France	french		3	plains		5	15	no	grain	France		Paris		FRA	FRA	FRA	336 (Ile de France)
386	Nivernais	french		5	plains		5	9	no	grain	France		Nevers		FRA	FRA	FRA	331 (Auxerrois)
387	Franche Comté	french		5	forests/hills	5	7	yes	mineral	France		Besancon	BUR	SPA	SPA	346 (Franche-Comté)
405	Savoie		french		3	mountains	6	14	yes	cloth	France		Chambéry	SAV	SAV	SAV	348 (Savoie)
406	Provence	french		3	mountains	5	13	no	wine	France		Marseille	PRO	FRA	FRA	326 (Provence)
407	Dauphiné	french		5	mountains	5	9	no	metal	France		Grenoble	DAU	FRA	FRA	327 (Dauphine)
408	Lyonnais	french		5	plains		5	13	no	grain	France		Lyon		DAU	FRA	FRA	329 (Lyonnais) + 347 (Bresse)
409	Bourgogne	french		5	plains		5	10	no	wine	France		Dijon		BUR	FRA	FRA	333 (Bourgogne)
410	Berri		french		3	plains		5	8	no	grain	France		Tours		DAU	FRA	FRA	330 (Berry)
411	Orléanais	french		3	plains		5	12	no	grain	France		Orleans		ORL	FRA	FRA	334 (Orleanais)
412	Maine		french		3	plains		5	10	no	grain	France		Le Mans		PRO	FRA	FRA	314 (Maine) + 316 (Anjou)
413	Normandie	french		3	forests/hills	5	7	no	navs	France		Caen		FRA	FRA	FRA	315 (Normandie)
414	Armor		gaelic		3	plains		5	9	no	fish	France		Rennes		BRI	FRA	FRA	313 (Rennes)
415	Bretagne	gaelic		3	forests/hills	3	7	no	fish	France		Brest		BRI	FRA	FRA	311 (Brest)
416	Morbihan	gaelic		3	plains		4	10	no	fish	France		Nantes		BRI	FRA	FRA	312 (Nantes)
417	Vendée		french		3	forests/hills	6	7	no	salt	France		Sables d'Olonne	DAU	FRA	FRA	317 (Poitou)
418	Poitou		french		3	swamp		5	6	no	salt	France		Poitiers	DAU	FRA	FRA	318 (Saintonge)
419	Limousin	french		3	forests/hills	5	7	no	grain	France		Limoges		DAU	FRA	FRA	325 (Limousin)
420	Auvergne	french		5	mountains	5	4	no	metal	France		Clermont	BOU	FRA	FRA	324 (Auvergne)
421	Cévennes	french		5	mountains	5	4	no	wool	France		Aurillac	BOU	FRA	FRA	323 (Cevennes)
422	Languedoc	french		3	plains		5	11	no	wine	France		Montpellier	DAU	FRA	FRA	321 (Toulouse) + 322 (Quercy)
423	Guyenne		french		3	forests/hills	5	11	no	wine	France		Toulouse	DAU	FRA	FRA	320 (Gascogne) + 322 (Quercy)
424	Gascogne	french		3	forests/hills	5	10	no	wine	France		Bordeaux	ENG	FRA	FRA	319 (Aquitaine)
425	Béarn		basque		3	forests/hills	5	6	no	wool	France		Pau		BEA	NAV	FRA	384 (Bearn) + 383 (Foix)
426	Roussillon	amazonian	3	mountains	5	5	no	wine	France		Perpinya	ARG	SPA	SPA	382 (Rossello)


New map

Code:
[B]Id	Province	Culture		Climate	Terrain	Type	ManPow	Income	HRE	Goods	Region		City		1419	1520	1648	Correspondance with old map[/B]
311	Brest		gaelic		3	forests/hills	3	7	no	fish	France		Brest		BRI	BRI	FRA	
312	Nantes		gaelic		3	plains		5	9	no	salt	France		Nantes		BRI	BRI	FRA	
313	Rennes		gaelic		3	plains		4	8	no	fish	France		Rennes		BRI	BRI	FRA		
314	Maine		french		3	plains		3	8	no	grain	France		Le Mans		PRO	FRA	FRA		
315	Normandie	french		3	forests/hills	5	11	no	navs	France		Caen		FRA	FRA	FRA		
316	Anjou		french		3	plains		5	10	no	grain	France		Angers		PRO	FRA	FRA		
317	Poitou		french		3	swamp		4	5	no	salt	France		Poitiers	DAU	FRA	FRA		
318	Saintonge	french		3	plains		3	5	no	wine	France		La Rochelle	DAU	FRA	FRA		
319	Aquitaine	french		3	plains		4	10	no	grain	France		Bordeaux	ENG	FRA	FRA		
320	Gascogne	french		3	forests/hills	4	7	no	wine	France		Auch		DAU	FRA	FRA		
321	Toulouse	french		3	plains		5	10	no	wine	France		Toulouse	DAU	FRA	FRA		
322	Quercy		french		3	forests/hills	3	6	no	wool	France		Montauban	DAU	FRA	FRA		
323	Cevennes	french		5	mountains	1	3	no	wool	France		Millau		BOU	BOU	FRA		
324	Auvergne	french		5	mountains	3	4	no	metal	France		Clermont	BOU	BOU	FRA		
325	Limousin	french		5	forests/hills	3	6	no	grain	France		Limoges		BOU	BOU	FRA		
326	Provence	french		3	mountains	5	12	no	wine	France		Marseille	PRO	FRA	FRA		
327	Dauphine	french		5	mountains	4	8	no	metal	France		Grenoble	DAU	FRA	FRA	
329	Lyonnais	french		3	plains		4	12	no	grain	France		Lyon		DAU	FRA	FRA	
330	Berry		french		3	plains		4	7	no	grain	France		Bourges		DAU	FRA	FRA		
331	Auxerrois	french		5	plains		4	8	no	grain	France		Auxerre		BUR	FRA	FRA		
332	Montpellier	french		3	plains		4	11	no	wine	France		Montpellier	DAU	FRA	FRA		
333	Bourgogne	french		5	plains		5	10	no	wine	France		Dijon		BUR	FRA	FRA		
334	Orleanais	french		3	plains		5	11	no	grain	France		Orléans		ORL	FRA	FRA		
335	Rouen		french		3	plains		5	7	no	fish	France		Rouen		FRA	FRA	FRA		
336	Ile de France	french		3	plains		6	15	no	grain	France		Paris		FRA	FRA	FRA		
337	Picardie	french		3	plains		5	8	no	grain	France		Amiens		FRA	FRA	FRA		
338	Troyes		french		5	forests/hills	3	9	no	grain	France		Troyes		FRA	FRA	FRA		
339	Calais		french		3	plains		2	4	no	fish	France		Calais		ENG	ENG	FRA		
340	Artois		french		3	plains		3	9	no	cloths	France		Arras		BUR	SPA	SPA		
341	Avesnois	dutch		3	forests/hills	3	9	yes	navs	Low Countries	Valenciennes	HAU	SPA	SPA		
342	Luxembourg	german		5	forests/hills	3	8	yes	navs	Low Countries	Luxembourg	LUX	SPA	SPA		
343	Reims		french		5	plains		3	8	no	grain	France		Reims		FRA	FRA	FRA		
344	Bar		french		5	forests/hills	3	7	no	navs	France		Bar-le-Duc	LOR	LOR	LOR		
345	Lorraine	french		5	forests/hills	4	9	yes	metal	France		Nancy		LOR	LOR	LOR	
346	Franche-Comté	french		5	forests/hills	3	6	yes	mineral	France		Besançon	BUR	SPA	SPA		
347	Bresse		french		5	plains		1	4	yes	wool	France		Bourg-en-Bresse	SAV	SAV	FRA		
348	Savoie		french		7	mountains	5	9	yes	wool	France		Chambéry	SAV	SAV	SAV		
349	Geneve		swiss		5	mountains	4	6	yes	grain	France		Genève		SAV	SAV	HEL		
350	Nordgau		german		5	forests/hills	3	7	yes	wool	Germany		Strassburg	STR	STR	STR		
351	Sundgau		german		5	plains		3	7	yes	wine	Germany		Kolmar		TYR	HAB	HAB			
353	Trois-Eveches	french		5	forests/hills	3	7	yes	wine	France		Metz		Trèves	Trèves	FRA
382	Rossello	amazonian	3	mountains	3	5	no	wine	France		Perpinya	ARG	SPA	SPA		
383	Foix		french		3	mountains	3	5	no	wool	France		Foix		BEA	NAV	FRA		
384	Bearn		french		3	mountains	4	6	no	wool	France		Pau		BEA	NAV	FRA		
409	Lille		dutch		3	plains		3	12	no	cloths	Low Countries	Lille		BUR	SPA	SPA		
410	Brugge		dutch		3	plains		3	19	yes	cloths	Low Countries	Brugge		BUR	SPA	SPA	
411	Brussels	dutch		3	plains		3	17	yes	orient	Low Countries	Brussels	HAU	SPA	SPA	
412	Staat Brabant	dutch		3	swamp		4	15	yes	fish	Low Countries	Breda		HAU	SPA	HOL	
413	Zeeland		dutch		3	swamp		2	13	yes	fish	Low Countries	Vlissingen	HAU	SPA	HOL	
414	Holland		dutch		3	swamp		4	20	yes	fish	Low Countries	Amsterdam	HAU	SPA	HOL	
415	Geldre		dutch		3	swamp		4	14	yes	grain	Low Countries	Arnhem		GEL	SPA	HOL	
416	Overijssel	dutch		3	swamp		4	11	yes	grain	Low Countries	Zwolle		FRI	SPA	HOL		
419	Friesland	dutch		3	swamp		3	11	yes	cloths	Low Countries	Ljouwert	FRI	SPA	HOL		
1348	Mons		dutch		3	plains		4	12	yes	cloths	Low Countries	Mons		HAU	SPA	SPA		
1349	Liege		dutch		5	forests/hills	3	13	yes	metal	Low Countries	Liège		KOL	SPA	SPA	
1350	Antwerpen	dutch		3	plains		3	19	yes	orient	Low Countries	Antwerpen	HAU	SPA	SPA


About the BTV :

In the old map for France:

15 : Ile de France
14 : Savoie
13 : Champagne, Provence, Lyonnais
12 : Orléanais
11 : Languedoc, Guyenne
10 : Artois, Bourgogne, Maine, Gascogne, Morbihan, Alsace
9 : Nivernais, Dauphiné, Armor, Lorraine
8 : Berri
7 : Calais, Normandie, Bretagne, Vendée, Limousin, Franche-Comté
6 : Picardie, Caux, Poitou, Béarn
5 : Roussillon
4 : Auvergne, Cévennes

Total old map for France : 285 for 32 provinces (average: 8.9)

In the old map for Low-Countries:

17 : Holland, Flandern
15 : Zeeland, Brabant
13 : Geldre
11 : Friesen
10 : Luxembourg

Total old map for Low Countries : 98 for 7 provinces (average: 14)

In the new map for France:

15 : Ile de France
12 : Provence, Lyonnais
11 : Normandie, Orléanais, Montpellier
10 : Aquitaine, Toulouse, Bourgogne, Anjou
9 : Nantes, Troyes, Artois, Lorraine, Savoie
8 : Rennes, Maine, Dauphine, Auxerrois, Reims, Picardie
7 : Brest, Berry, Bar, Nordgau, Sundgau, Trois-Evêchés, Rouen, Gascogne
6 : France-Comté, Béarn, Quercy, Limousin
5 : Poitou, Saintonge, Rossello, Foix
4 : Auvergne, Bresse, Calais
3 : Cévennes

Total new map for France : 320 for 41 provinces (avearge: 7.8)

In the new map for Low-Countries:

20 : Holland
19 : Brugge, Antwerpen
17 : Brussels
15 : Staat-Brabant
14 : Geldre
13 : Zeeland, Liege
12 : Lille, Mons
11 : Overijssel, Friesland
9 : Avesnois
8 : Luxembourg

Total new map for Low Countries: 193 for 14 provinces (average 13.8)


ManPower in old map for France: 156
ManPower in new map for France: 162

ManPower in old map for Low Countries: 41
ManPower in new map for Low Countries: 44


All the French forum members (and especially Belgian members) founded that Low Countries were far undervalued in the old map. As the Low Countries produced a lot of more taxes and income than New World under Charles V, we have decided to increase a lot the BTV for Low Countries.

Of course, this list is a proposition and could be discussed.
 

Maladict

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I'd change the terrain of Gel(d)re and Overijssel from swamp to plains. Both provinces are for the largest part made up of alluvial plains, well above sea level. The same probably holds true for Staatsbrabant, only the western extremety of it contains the river delta, the largest part (to the east and south) contains some of the best draining of the country.