New map: Carribean

[Norrefeldt]

There might still be some very minor changes here and there, but the version that is already out is sufficient basis for publishing in the various threads. No time to lose. Try to focus on the issues at hand, changes to the map are very very likely to be included in the first release. It will all be for later releases.
For this thread, just discuss provinces numbered in white! The rest will be in other threads. Maps without the chicken scratch will replace this one as soon as I get my hands on it.

We need help with

• Make conversion list for old ID - new ID(s). This will be used for converting knownprovinces lists in 300 country files. They should be configured like this to be readble to Aegnor's program:
  
  One old to one new conversion:
  

  oldID1-newID1 #Old name
  oldID2-newID2 #Old name
  oldID3-newID3 #Old name
  etc..

  One old to multiple new conversion:
  

  oldID1-newID1 #Old name
  oldID1-newID2 
  oldID1-newID3 
  etc..

  One old can convert into several new ones, but never the opposite! It's no exact science as it's only for this sole purpose.
  If there is no new one that fits, as if it's been covered in PTI, write 0.
  
• Make the province.csv entries.
• Make the 1419.inc entries. (Not the knownprovinces part.)
• Make revolt.txt entries.

As default provinces coming from a split old EU2 province in the new map get the combined tax values of the old one +1. Countries need to invest some to get the value out of the provinces, and this addition is an easy way to make up for it. There's already too much manpower on the map, and armies are several times the historical ones, and require no investment, so I don't think manpower should be affected.

Example: Old province A (tax 7) is divided in X and Y. Their combined tax values on the new map is 9.

 

[Norrefeldt]

Areas for colonisation

If we divide the new world into areas and regions according to who is supposed to colonise them, we can easier taylor the AI to go straight for it's historical spots.

For the Carribean we have the old map areas:

• Bermuda (1568 Bermuda)
• Antilles (147 Antigua, 152 Barbados, 148 Dominica, 149 Guadeloupe, 150 Martinique, 146 St. Martin, 151 Tobago & Trinidad)
• Cuba (1569 Bahamas, 139 Guantanamo, 137 Havana, 140 Jamaica, 138 Moron)
• Haiti (143 Barahona, 141 Les Cayes, 144 Puerto Rico, 145 St. Thomas, 142 Tortuga)

I suggest we use them for

• Bermuda: English
• Antilles: Dutch
• Cuba: Spanish
• Haiti: French

As I understand it the Dutch only remained more permanently on St Martin and Curacao? Surinam could also be included there. Otherwise it's Haiti to France and Cuba, Jamaice to Spain. Bermuda and Bahamas to England. (This list is not complete.)

 

[sturmvogel]

We should probably break them down like this for the Spanish using the new provinces:
Cuba: Jamaica, Pinar de Rio, Habana, Matanzas, Las Villas, Camaguey, Oriente, Santiago
Hispaniola: Cordillera, Septentrion, Hispaniola, Puerto Rico.

I can't really speak for the Lesser Antilles as I don't know enough about their early history. And did France take away the three Haitian provinces on Hispaniola from the Spanish or did they just fill a void in the Spanish colonization?

 

[unmerged(40707)]

Guadeloupe and Martinique "should" be French.

AFAIK, French took control of west part of Haïti/Hispaniola island against Spanish progressively under Colbert's policy (Louis XIV's minister). Treaty of Ryswick in 1697 made official partition of the island between French (west part) and Spanish (east part). With Treaty of Bâle (Basel) in 1795, Spain seceded east part to France.

AFAIK, French never went to Puerto Rico but attempted to colonize St Martin.

 

[unmerged(6159)]

The lesser Antilles are pretty complicated, and there ought to be lots of competition there.

In addition to Martinique and Guadaloupe, St. Lucia should absolutely be French. Trinidad ought to be Spanish, Barbados, Dominica and Antigua English. Grenada, St Martin and the Virgin Islands I'm not so sure about. Wikipedia tells me that St Martin should perhaps be Spanish, Grenada should be French, and the Virgin Islands should be Dutch.

 

[Herr Doctor]

The lesser Antilles are pretty complicated, and there ought to be lots of competition there.

In addition to Martinique and Guadaloupe, St. Lucia should absolutely be French. Trinidad ought to be Spanish, Barbados, Dominica and Antigua English. Grenada, St Martin and the Virgin Islands I'm not so sure about. Wikipedia tells me that St Martin should perhaps be Spanish, Grenada should be French, and the Virgin Islands should be Dutch.

Virgin Islands should be Danish (besides, St Thomas was small but one of the most rich colonies of the region due to the wonderful soils for sugar cane and great natural harbor: it was givung 3 % of all Europe’s sugar in the 18th century). There never were any Dutch colonies here (only a couple of smaller unimportant islands in the east were colonized by the English in the 17th century and recently known as the British Virgin Islands).
http://www.virgin-islands-history.dk/eng/vi_hist.asp

In fact St Martin should be Dutch (half of it nowadays is French, but still).

 

[Norrefeldt]

Considering that the Ai's incompetence fot colonisation is only comparable to it's problems with colonisal warfare, I think we should aim for getting the final coloniser right from start, unless it was very short. The alternative is to cede provinces by events, which I don't like for these comparably unimportant cases. that will take some colonising burden off Spain, which has a lot to do anyways, and they will still take a few spots even in unassigned areas, when nothing else is seen, or if all Carribean is added to all nations late game, to fill up the empty spots.

Virgin Islands seem to have been Dutch, who later on lost their place to England, and Danish. I think it's best in the Enlish area, since we would either have a single-province area for Denmark, or Danish colonies where they shouldn't belong.

That would mean England in Jamaica for example.

 

[unmerged(6159)]

Virgin Islands should be Danish (besides, St Thomas was small but one of the most rich colonies of the region due to the wonderful soils for sugar cane and great natural harbor: it was givung 3 % of all Europe’s sugar in the 18th century). There never were any Dutch colonies here (only a couple of smaller unimportant islands in the east were colonized by the English in the 17th century and recently known as the British Virgin Islands).

In fact St Martin should be Dutch (half of it nowadays is French, but still).

From wikipedia, the Spanish had established a copper mine on Virgin Gorda in the early 16th century. The Dutch had a permenent colony on Tortoga in 1648. The Danes didn't establish themselves on St Thomas until 1672, which is the same year that the English conquered the current BVI from the Dutch. I think the Dutch should target it as should the Danes. The English took the Virgin Islands (BVI) by conquest. And I like the name "St Thomas" better anyway But Denmark should defintiely target it - all the big islands bar Tortoga are in the USVI.

As to St Martin, the first settlement was Dutch in 1631, but the island was conquered by Spain in 1633. The first slaves were introduced to the island under Spanish rule. The Dutch attacked the Spanish on the island repeatedly, but as the war neared it's end, after one final sucessful defense the Spanish agreed to abandon the island. The allies (France and Holland) then divided the island by treaty.

So it makes sense that it be targeted by both the French and Dutch.

Considering that the Ai's incompetence fot colonisation is only comparable to it's problems with colonisal warfare, I think we should aim for getting the final coloniser right from start, unless it was very short. The alternative is to cede provinces by events, which I don't like for these comparably unimportant cases. that will take some colonising burden off Spain, which has a lot to do anyways, and they will still take a few spots even in unassigned areas, when nothing else is seen, or if all Carribean is added to all nations late game, to fill up the empty spots.

That would mean England in Jamaica for example.

The Jamaica standard would certainly rule out the Spanish in St Martin, or, realistically the Dutch in the BVI.

But the cases of St Lucia and Trinidad are far more egregious that Jamaica. Jamaica was largely unsettled when it fell to the English in 1655. Trinidad was colonized by Spain in the 18th century, and did not fall to the British until 1797. This is close enough to game end that I think it can be ignored. It ought to be targeted by Spain. St Lucia was pretty much French until 1814. The English made repeated attempts to esablish themselves there, but failed. From 1723 to 1744 the island was neutral by treaty, but the colonists were overwhelmingly French. In 1744 the French re-occupied it. The British occupied it from 1762-1763, 1778-1781, 1781-1783, 1794-1802, and from 1803 on, but in all cases it was given (or taken) back to the French. It was finally ceded to Britain in 1814. It definitely should be targeted by France, although England made multiple attempts too.

(St Lucia link http://www.un.int/stlucia/history.htm)

Which mean that for my money we have the following chart for the Lesser Antilles:
Dutch 1.5 provinces (St Martin, maybe Virgin Islands)
English 3.5 provinces (Barbados, Antigua, Dominica, maybe St Lucia)
Danish 1 province (Virgin Islands)
Spanish 1 province (Trinidad)
French 5 provinces (St Martin, Guadaloupe, Grenada, Martinique, St Lucia)

So if the plan is to give all of the Lesser Antilles to one country (because they will not find the islands they need to find in a timely way) the obvious country to give the LA to is France. Perhaps England as well, and Denmark for the Virgin Islands (if it's free they should definitely go for it).

 

[unmerged(29041)]

If we don't want Spain to colonize something, the best way is to take it out of ToT, as Spain never colonizes out of ToT provinces (hardcoded). That at least will leave them open for the others, and the player Spain will not have the chance to steal them for free from France or a Catholic England.

 

[Herr Doctor]

Considering that the Ai's incompetence fot colonisation is only comparable to it's problems with colonisal warfare, I think we should aim for getting the final coloniser right from start, unless it was very short. The alternative is to cede provinces by events, which I don't like for these comparably unimportant cases. that will take some colonising burden off Spain, which has a lot to do anyways, and they will still take a few spots even in unassigned areas, when nothing else is seen, or if all Carribean is added to all nations late game, to fill up the empty spots.

Virgin Islands seem to have been Dutch, who later on lost their place to England, and Danish. I think it's best in the Enlish area, since we would either have a single-province area for Denmark, or Danish colonies where they shouldn't belong.

That would mean England in Jamaica for example.

The main islands taken by Denmark were not attempted colonized by Dutch. As Isaac Brock said there were only the smaller east (English) group of islands (BVI) and St Croix (where they had temporary settlement), which was switching hands dozens of times (much as Tobago). St Thomas and St John surprisingly were never attempted to be colonized by any power before Denmark.

IMO if to add them to anyone then for Danish (and perhaps English and French too) as the Dutch positions here were always weak.

 

[Herr Doctor]

Which mean that for my money we have the following chart for the Lesser Antilles:
Dutch 1.5 provinces (St Martin, maybe Virgin Islands)
English 3.5 provinces (Barbados, Antigua, Dominica, maybe St Lucia)
Danish 1 province (Virgin Islands)
Spanish 1 province (Trinidad)
French 5 provinces (St Martin, Guadaloupe, Grenada, Martinique, St Lucia)

So if the plan is to give all of the Lesser Antilles to one country (because they will not find the islands they need to find in a timely way) the obvious country to give the LA to is France. Perhaps England as well, and Denmark for the Virgin Islands (if it's free they should definitely go for it).

Regarding Trinidad (with Tobago in AGCEEP map setup) it should be perhaps added for almost all colonizing countries (including Spain, France, Dutch, English and Courland) as anyone potentially could take control of it during the years of struggle for both islands.

 

[Norrefeldt]

Regarding Trinidad (with Tobago in AGCEEP map setup) it should be perhaps added for almost all colonizing countries (including Spain, France, Dutch, English and Courland) as anyone potentially could take control of it during the years of struggle for both islands.

You can only include it in one group, I assume. So unless you clean out one group for this island only, or have a bunch of islands open to a larger group of countries, it's not possible. It's not possible to target a single province.

 

[Norrefeldt]

We could try

• Spain "Cuba" (including eastern Haiti),
• France "Haiti" perhaps including or two of their LA islands
• England "Bermuda" including Bahamas, Jamaica (will that work?), and some of their LA.
• The remaining "Antilles" could be trageted for all of the above, and Denmark and the Netherlands.

All the main colonisers would get some, and the rest would be up for grabs.

 

[unmerged(29041)]

Province conversion Central America and Carribean:

36-154 #Honduras
36-155
37-156 #Nicaragua
822-158 #Costa Rica
38-157 #Mosquitos
39-159 #Isthmus
1569-1359 #Bahamas
137-1352 #Havana
137-1353
138-1354 #Moron
138-1355
138-1356
139-1357 #Guantanamo
139-1358
140-1360 #Jamaica
141-1361 #Les Cayes
141-1363
142-1362 #Tortuga
142-1365
143-1364 #Barahona
143-1366
144-1367 #Puerto Rico
145-1368 #St Thomas
146-1369 #St Martin
147-1370 #Antigua
148-1372 #Dominica
149-1371 #Guadelupe
150-1373 #Martinique
151-1377 #Tobago & Trinidad
152-1375 #Barbados
153-235 #Curacao

 

[szmik]

I've read the discussion

I have bad feeling you're going to kill the mod with new map by heavy scripting. In fact English, Spanish, Dutch and French competed heavily and outcome could have been different easily. What you're going to do is to have colonization going historically in GC, which seems ridiculus to me. It seems you want all pity islands to be colonizaed by their historical owner. I'm shocked. o

Fortunately AI won't allow that I guess

 

[Norrefeldt]

I have bad feeling you're going to kill the mod with new map by heavy scripting. In fact English, Spanish, Dutch and French competed heavily and outcome could have been different easily. What you're going to do is to have colonization going historically in GC, which seems ridiculus to me. It seems you want all pity islands to be colonizaed by their historical owner. I'm shocked. o

Fortunately AI won't allow that I guess

You are so right. An AI will colonize wherever it can to fill it's expansion number, or above that as well. So even if they will aim for their historical islands first of all, the exact outcome in a game will differ by a big margin.