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unmerged(49695)

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Oct 23, 2005
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exactly, ive heard of a case of a guy having 150 divs on transports in a game, waiting for days in the sea, then out of nowhere he landed them on bilbao just after allying spain! how is it possible only hours after allying spain, it already has supplies (ammo, oil, and all sorts of things) built for the kind of weapons they are using, stockpiled to feed those divisions, in a mountains terrain. Now how is this possible? logistics has to play a bigger role in all of this.

HoI2 is a great game, but it cant really be called a "grand strategy game" until some good logistic mechanics are implemented to actually have influence on decisions of players in a multiplayer game.
 

unmerged(58892)

Second Lieutenant
Jul 11, 2006
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LOGISTIC

That is a really simply idea to realize and could make the game more realistic.
Unit Logistic convoy with an effeciency range (80 Km base?).
Every unit in this range are supplied
To function (to give supplies) a logistic convoy must be supplied.
To supply troops will be necessary to set a logistic chain with those units (represent the many convoys going always back and again to the front.
The enemy will have the possibility to attack them to paralyze your front.
With technology the range gets better and better (until 160?)
Planes simulate the of the “logistic convoy” where they deploy their supply mission.
 

unmerged(110317)

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Logistics has to play a huge part in HOI 3, if they make the logistics system accurate, they may have well made the most historically accurate game ever.

Lets face it, supplies made an Army advance or fall back...........basically made it win the war or loose it

Take for instance the Allies after Normandy, if every allied Army had enough supplies it could have advanced much further and faster

Patton, Bradley and Montgomery always asked for one thing and one thing only... SUPPLIES

Who ever got the priority in supplies, got to advance, which is why they constantly fought with Eisenhover over it

Germanys whole defence plan in 44 in the west was to deny the allies ports for their supplies
The Russian Army had to wait just outside the gates of berlin for months due to lack of supplies

Unfortunately none of this was addressed in HOI2, where an army could easily over a very short period of time accumilate supplies, and thus constantly advance

Like a Strenght and Organisation bar, there should also be a Supplies or Ammunition bar which would deteriorate rapidly during battle and would take time to accumilate

This would explain how Rommel although at defence for months at El Alemein still had only limited supplies, and thus could not fight to its potential
This could never be made possible in HOI2, which I thought was one of biggest flaws of an otherwise excellent game

If this is addressed HOI 3 will just be an awesome game
 

choward

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Like the rest of you, I think a semi-realistic logistics system is the biggest gap in HOI. I'm also a fan of systems that allow you to tweak if you want to dive in, but for the most part, "just work".

The system that I'd propose is similar to Railroad Tycoon 3's economic model.

I'll explain based on how HOI2 works, since I can't map details to the unknown of HOI3. In particular, I want to avoid the factory vs IC debate as it's mostly orthogonal to this issue. I speak only of supplies here, but this method can be extended to the other resources, notably fuel.

Here's the proposal:

Units currently consume a certain amount of supplies each day. Change this a very small supply storage capacity to each unit that is consumed at different rates based on the units activity. For example, a unit with no mission vs anti-partisan vs moving vs fighting would consume supplies at different rates.

Each province that has IC produces supplies. The rate at which a particular province produces supplies is determined based on the amount of IC in that province.

In order to get supplies from factories to units we use "network flow". (Check it out in wikipedia if you're math inclined and transportation theory) Factories are sources and units are sinks. The supply stockpile unit proposed earlier in the thread would be both a source and a sink. (Although I don't know if I like the extra complexity that unit adds.) Each province is a node in the graph. Each day each factory puts some supplies into the network. Each day each unit consumes some supplies in order to keep its storage capacity full.

Supplies would have a speed with which they move through the graph. This speed would be affected by the infrastructure in the province. (Although note that the speed should really be along the edge of the graph, so the infrastructure here would actually be the quality of the connection between provinces) Supplies would be destroyed en route in a province with partisans. This implies that the amount of supplies produced does not correspond with the amount of supplies that all units receive!

Ports should be sources and sinks. This allows convoys to move goods from one port to another. In order to really convoy, there should be a setting to specify how big the "batches" are. In other words, are supplies always moving, or do they sit and wait to reach a critical mass before moving the next step along the graph. This system could be unified with movement across ground too. Would convoying across the ground minimize losses due to partisans? (Here I'd really want default settings for peace time and war time broken out by land vs sea. Perhaps allow the player to tweak if they really want to)

There would be a map mode that lets you visualize the flow of supplies. Railroad Tycoon 3 does this by showing cars full of supplies creeping from the sources to the sinks. An alternative would be to show the graph and colour each edge based on % of supplies lost or supply movement speed.
Offensive supply would simply temporarily increase the unit's supply storage capacity.

I haven't mentioned HQ units in here. They don't fit easily into this model. However, if you add a supply speed penalty for too many units stacked in a province (I can imagine that distributing supplies at the last mile when you've got 20 divisions fighting over the last case of bullets would be a nightmare), the HQ could reduce that penalty. Therefore the HQ is only effective when there are many divisions present. This seems reasonable to me.

The problem I have with the current system is that it's not discoverable. There's infrastructure, TC, ESE and some other stuff that gets combined in a way I don't understand (and don't want to understand!) The only way I observe the effects is if I win a battle or not.

With my proposal it's obvious. "Oh, this division is running low on supplies, I should put it in reserve to build up its supplies before I put it in combat. No supplies means no bullets, I get it." A naive player can just up his supply production rate and still succeed. An experienced player can see that he's overrunning his supply rate with his offensive in North Africa and pause while his really long supply line catches up. Meanwhile, Monty's short supply line is reinforcing his army... An expert player can dive in and discover that Warsaw (for example) has a high partisan rate, perhaps if he stations another Garrison there he can improve my efficiency and use those IC for new production instead. (Can partisan activity be related to province manpower? Putting a large garrison in Warsaw makes sense, other provinces, not so much)

As a bonus, the "magic numbers" ESE and TC are no longer needed! The player now also has a strong incentive to improve the infrastructure in key provinces. The faster the supplies move, the fewer there are in transit, which means less time for loss and more time for consumption. An encircled army is also possibly still in supply. As long as there's a heavy production centre inside the encirclement, some amount of supplies can still be produced and delivered to the trapped army. However, those supplies cannot get out. This (mostly) fixes the encircling of the capital problem.

The big problem I see with my proposal is the computational complexity. Optimizing network flow is a hard problem. It's probably doable as you can make several approximations, but there's a trade-off between this and other features when it comes to CPU time. Personally, I'd prefer to see more CPU time spent on logistics, but I'm biased. :)

In some other thread, I saw a suggestion for a food resource. That would fit nicely in with this model too. Infantry needs food and supplies. Armour needs food, supplies and fuel. Same with a carrier (don't forget about the navy and their supply lines!) How cool would it be if a fleet met up with a convoy (you can see the movement of supplies in that map mode, remember?) and restocked its fuel from the convoy?

I'd also like to make the observation that optimizing supply networks can be fun. Try Settlers 2 some time (or the open source remake, Widelands).
 

von_Manstein11

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Im curious if any of the Devs of the game have been reading this thread and what they think of this?

is there any hope in this being adressed?
 

LaDoncella

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choward said:
really long post

so more or less, you are propossing a system where:
1- factories produce supplies on provinces (instead of the capital) [so it would be desirable that resources are consumed in those provinces instead of capital]
2- units have supply stockpiles
3- supplies have to reach units from factories


I like the idea,
additionaly it would be interesting to be able to concentrate supplies on some provinces
 

QuinnDexter

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While playing HOI2 I was never able to actually get depots manually set up. I am not one of those types who adjusts the code of the game nor do I wish to. I only wanted to state that I was unable to set up forward based stockpiles of whichever/how much resource I wanted manually. The game seemed to handle it automatically really well. However there were times when I wished to place some stockpiles foward. Hopefully HOI3 will allow this minor tweaking ability without having to go totally manual supply. Just my two cents for this topic :p
 

unmerged(42324)

Second Lieutenant
Mar 30, 2005
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choward said:
long choward post

I just must say i second this. A system like this will very much be automated and therefore less micromanagement for the player which always is good. IMO this is a good compromise between a more detailed and important logistical system and the fear of more micro management
 
Aug 26, 2008
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I like the idea
ok and supply should also be stored in Regions not only in Capital.
Another nice thing could be usage of suplies by units effecting their combat.
Options to choose (or make it auto as u wish):
- limited usage (if encircled or generally low on suplies)
- normal usage
- max usage (offensive etc)
Name it as u wish
 

unmerged(34324)

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choward said:
Like the rest of you ... etc, just that very long post :)
I'd also like to make the observation that optimizing supply networks can be fun.

No doubt about that, for any WW2 game of this scale the good logistics system is crucial.

Great suggestions, but I'm afraid you are right - this seems to be MUCH CPU-time-demanding for the wargame like this. As you wrote, optimizing supply networks can be fun - actually, fun enough for separate game. Some degree of simplification would be necessary.

My thoughts was much more simple: instead of actual supply flow, calculate just overall supply efficiency for every region (sea or land) and then apply some "supply line disruption" penalty - which can be negated by
"supply line protection" modifier - i.e. whole naval warfare (except "the decisive battles") will be abstracted - instead of stacks of 30 U-boots and 60 destroyers wandering in north Atlantic with some chance to meet :) . Similar for land supply issues and air operations. This determine amount of supply delivered to particular unit, undelivered supplies are lost.

Every unit has new Supply rating (representing supply reserves of unit, full is 100, it can be lifted up, but it's expensive). Then, if the unit get more supplies than needed, its Supply rating goes up, if less, it goes down somewhat (depending on many modifiers - but unit entirely out of supply in desert vanish in 1 week!) If the Supply Rating goes below 100, it hurts combat (similar to ESE now), if it goes below x, it cannot attack; lower - it cannot defend; even lower - it cannot move; if it sinks to zero, unit is destroyed. Works in typical Pdox style - simple rules, simple counts, lots of modifiers to play with :) .

I'm not saying these ideas are good or original, but some of them would be perhaps useful.
 

bbasgen

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Several people have proposed some interesting ideas. von_Manstein11, I suggest you use your first post in the thread to consoladate all the suggestions in your post. Put them in bullet form with a simple description that links to the post.

One of the things I think we have neglected to do is fully identify *what* we want to see accomplished, rather than *how* we think it could be accomplished. So, to start a second list for von_manstein to include in his first post as well:
  • Prevent massive army build up in remote provinces
  • Enable historical strategies (such as hedgehogs or partisan activity)
  • Avoid extreme expansionism in normal gameplay
 

unmerged(29126)

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choward said:
I haven't mentioned HQ units in here. They don't fit easily into this model. However, if you add a supply speed penalty for too many units stacked in a province (I can imagine that distributing supplies at the last mile when you've got 20 divisions fighting over the last case of bullets would be a nightmare), the HQ could reduce that penalty. Therefore the HQ is only effective when there are many divisions present. This seems reasonable to me.

I like the network-flow idea.

From what I understand we're going to have a proper chain of command (Armygroup/Army/Corps/Division) this time around. Not sure whether actual HQ units will be on-map or just abstracted into some game-menu. In any case I would imagine a tiered supply system with every Armygroup-HQ being a primary sink and simultaneously a source for the next level down. Should reduce the network-complexity (number of connections/pipelines being calculated) somewhat instead of calculating the connections from X number of sources to Y number of units.
 

Bullfrog

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Disgustoid said:
I like the network-flow idea.

From what I understand we're going to have a proper chain of command (Armygroup/Army/Corps/Division) this time around. Not sure whether actual HQ units will be on-map or just abstracted into some game-menu. In any case I would imagine a tiered supply system with every Armygroup-HQ being a primary sink and simultaneously a source for the next level down. Should reduce the network-complexity (number of connections/pipelines being calculated) somewhat instead of calculating the connections from X number of sources to Y number of units.
How do you personally take the customized divisions into account with your suggestion?
 

unmerged(29126)

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Bullfrog said:
How do you personally take the customized divisions into account with your suggestion?

With a lot of processing power I guess.

Just like every division has an individual str/org parameter that is being kept track of, and will probably have an individual softness/air/soft/hard attack value (the sum of all the brigade'/regiments' values) each division could have an individual maximum supply/oil level determined by its components (i.e. a max 120 for four inf brigades, 200 for four armour brigades, 90 for three inf brigades, 2x30 + 2x50 for 2 Inf/2 Arm Bdes etc.) and a daily supply/oil use while stationary/moving/defending/attacking (i.e. -1 supply -0.5/oil while stationary, -10 supply, -20 oil while attacking, differs per brigade composition).

No combat penalty for supply within the 70-100% range of max. supply/oil, an then stepwise the combat penalties would increase, rather than the drastic in supply/out-of-supply situation (sometimes alternating daily) we have now.

Rather than having a TC-mediated combat penalty across the board the source-to-sink pipeline idea suggested by choward could be used to assign transport capacity asymmetrically via prioritization.

In practise the lowest tier of unit would be the "counter" (whether it comprises one or 12 divisions) anyway, so that would reduce complexity even further ...
 

daemonofdecay

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Disgustoid said:
With a lot of processing power I guess.

Just like every division has an individual str/org parameter that is being kept track of, and will probably have an individual softness/air/soft/hard attack value (the sum of all the brigade'/regiments' values) each division could have an individual maximum supply/oil level determined by its components (i.e. a max 120 for four inf brigades, 200 for four armour brigades, 90 for three inf brigades, 2x30 + 2x50 for 2 Inf/2 Arm Bdes etc.) and a daily supply/oil use while stationary/moving/defending/attacking (i.e. -1 supply -0.5/oil while stationary, -10 supply, -20 oil while attacking, differs per brigade composition).

No combat penalty for supply within the 70-100% range of max. supply/oil, an then stepwise the combat penalties would increase, rather than the drastic in supply/out-of-supply situation (sometimes alternating daily) we have now.

Rather than having a TC-mediated combat penalty across the board the source-to-sink pipeline idea suggested by choward could be used to assign transport capacity asymmetrically via prioritization.

In practise the lowest tier of unit would be the "counter" (whether it comprises one or 12 divisions) anyway, so that would reduce complexity even further ...

It sounds workable, and I doubt it would require that much processing power to impliment.
 

Bullfrog

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Has anyone mentioned a reinstatement of limited strategic redeploy, as in HOI 1? There are only so many trains available at one time. It should not be possible to SR 200 divisions simultaneously. The max could be somewhat increased from HOI's relatively restrictive SR limit.
 

unmerged(49695)

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bullfrog idea sounds good aswell, but i think that in hoi2 theres an system to compensate for it isnt it? TC overload, so it takes more time to redeploy something, because there isnt enough transport capacity to do everything at the same time.
 

Bullfrog

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Colonel_General said:
bullfrog idea sounds good aswell, but i think that in hoi2 theres an system to compensate for it isnt it? TC overload, so it takes more time to redeploy something, because there isnt enough transport capacity to do everything at the same time.
yes it kills TC, but it all happens simultaneously. This is usually something done in peacetime...unless (HOI2) we are talking about the Soviet Union AI, which seemingly SRs its whole army to siberia as soon as the Germans attack.
 

unmerged(49695)

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well, i think the game should be built based on Human experience, not AI. Built for Multiplayer. A decent human wouldnt strat deploy everything to siberia and leave himself open to be bitter peaced.

But the amount of time it would take to redeploy all their troops is just insane if u do it as SU. The only way of turning it around would be limiting it yes to your actual TC, but as i said, its kinda simulated already