New Italian and German territorial claims

[unmerged(51143)]

Nearly you all are wrong, or not correct, about Adriatic Easterna Coast, or Dalmazia/Dalmatia.
Illirian Province was Roman (Italian) for centuries, but at the contrary of Istria was never "annexed" to Italy and remained a "foreign" province.
From Middle Ages to 1797 Dalmazia was a loyal and national province of Venetian Empire. After it passed to Austria (Campoformido Treaty), then to France Enpire (Illirian Provinces), then newly to Austria, and to the Reign of Hungary after 1848.
It was claimed by Italy in 1918-1919, but Italy in the end took only the city (nearly all Italian inhabited) of Zara, city destroyed by air bombing during WW2 and loss in 1945-1947. Dalmazia during war was divided between Italy and Croatia.
Until Tito's Jugoslavia and, overall, Tudjamm's Croatia, Dalmazia was NOT a Croatian region but a particular region: they spoke their own language, which some believe to be an Italian dialect not far from Venetian dialects (spoken to Verona to Istria, and well known in Dalmazia too), other believe it to be a language itself, and Dalmazia had its own culture referring to ancient Venetian Empire. It was inhabited by Dalmatians, or Schiavoni in Venetic, a mix of descendants of old Illirians, Croatians, Italians and Serbs.
Tito made ethnical cleaning of Italians, Tudjman and Gotovina of Serbs.

 

[unmerged(51143)]

AFAIK Hitler could have laid claim to the region of Trentino, as it had a strong Austrian minority, but did not because of Mussolini's support during the Munich Conference (I think?), which he said he would never forget. It probably belongs in an event, Germany may choose whether to lay claim to it or not

It was Mussolini's support to Anschluss that Hitler "would have never forgotten".
Germany annexed Southern Tyrol after RSI formed.

 

[unmerged(51143)]

Considering the Italian name for the city of Rijeka is actually Fiume why not?

There is a big difference between the city of Fiume/Rijeka, and what is the province with the same name in HoI.
In 1925 an Italo-Jugoslavian agreement assigned the city of Fiume to Italy (from 1919 it was a "free city" like Danzig) with the thin coastline connecting it to Istria, while surrounding region remained Jugoslavian (and that region is called "Rjieka" in the game).

 

[unmerged(26501)]

Listen

The whole Dalmatian Coast should go to Italy, especially the Rijeka Province, which is a ridiculous province anyway. Before 1945 Rijeka did not exist it was Fiume. So the naming of the Province Rijeka was stupid in the first place. Anyway the main thing that stopped them from Annexing the whole region historically was German pressure, because Croatia they said needed a port. Historically they took what would be the provinces of Split, Mostar, Podgorica. Thea area of Dubrovnik was not taken, but in game terms it would have to go to Italy because it would not be connected to Croatia. But historically the area was claimed by Italy and it had strong ethnic, culture, and historic ties to Italy. The Option should be given whether or not to set up Montenegro in Podgorica, even though Italy had the Cattaro bay, which would be about half of the province, but this cannot be done in game terms. Also after Italy occupied Albania in 1939, the Albanian Puppet Government officially laid claim to Parts of Yugoslavia and Greece with Italian backing, thes areas being Pristina, Skopje, and Ionnina. So when Italy annexes Albania they should inherit these claims.

 

[MateDow]

I question whether there really is all that much claim by Italy to those areas. During the negotiations for the Versailles Treaty, the Italians weren't able to convince the other countries that they had a legitimate claim to anything but very small areas on the Yugoslav coast and those claims were considered very weak and they certainly weren't as large as any of the HoI2 provences.

I would question whether they should get any claim to those territories, and if they do, I really don't think that they should be considered national provences in terms of revolt risk and production.

If we do decide that Germany and Italy get these ahistorical claims, it should be REALLY rare in terms of occurance. MDow

 

[Sir Humphrey]

What about the former territories of the German colonial empire?

 

[unmerged(51143)]

I question whether there really is all that much claim by Italy to those areas. During the negotiations for the Versailles Treaty, the Italians weren't able to convince the other countries that they had a legitimate claim to anything but very small areas on the Yugoslav coast and those claims were considered very weak and they certainly weren't as large as any of the HoI2 provences.

I would question whether they should get any claim to those territories, and if they do, I really don't think that they should be considered national provences in terms of revolt risk and production.

If we do decide that Germany and Italy get these ahistorical claims, it should be REALLY rare in terms of occurance. MDow

Dalmazia was a melting-pot of ethnic groups and cultures, which the only real representative and accepted (by the whole population) state was Venice Republic.
Italy did not convince other Nations in Versailles 1919 because of 2 things: American support to Jugoslavia, and because in the end Italy did not want "a new Ireland". Italian population was in majority only in Istria, in some islands and in the cities of Fiume and Zara, all territories that from 1919 to 1925 were assigned to Italy [after the loss of the most part of its Italian territories, in 1859-1866, Austria-Hungary began to support Slavic nationalist elements and instigate them against Italians, and the hate began then (hate that is still alive today)]: but this did not mean that from Quarnero region, to cities like Spalato/Split, Sebenico/Sibenik and Ragusa/Dubrovnik, to Cattaro bay there were not Italian minorities, as there were Serbs, Montenegrins, Albanians, Bosnians, Croatians etc. overall, old and dominant culture and language still came from Venice.
Italian Queen, Elena, was from the Royal Family of Montenegro, so Italy should choose to make newly Montenegro (Podgorica) free or to annex it with the support of local population.
Since 1941, Kosovo (or Cossovo as it could be written in Italian) and Ioannina region were annexed to Albanian Kingdom (which had its own representatives chamber, but which King was Vittorio Emanuele III and which Army and bureaucracy were absorbed by Italy).

 

[unmerged(51143)]

What about the former territories of the German colonial empire?

In the CORE for HoI they were claimed by Germany, as Tunisia by Italy, and these things are historical. I hope them to be proposed again.

 

[Sparrow]

I question whether there really is all that much claim by Italy to those areas. During the negotiations for the Versailles Treaty, the Italians weren't able to convince the other countries that they had a legitimate claim to anything but very small areas on the Yugoslav coast and those claims were considered very weak and they certainly weren't as large as any of the HoI2 provences.

I would question whether they should get any claim to those territories, and if they do, I really don't think that they should be considered national provences in terms of revolt risk and production.

If we do decide that Germany and Italy get these ahistorical claims, it should be REALLY rare in terms of occurance. MDow

And it was no small part that Italy was rebuked at Versailles that led Italy down the road to joining Germany in world war 2. There was much bitterness over the treatment Italy received during this process, if you are to be doing a comprehensive mod I would hope knowledge of such a simple thing would be known by someone on your team. And hopefully any of the exploits by Italians in the inter-war period to bring portions of Italia Irredenta unclaimed into the fold. Rijeka simply by being Fiume should belong as an Italian claim. Oh well I guess I should be happy thattParadox managed to get the flag displayed properly in game this time.

 

[McNaughton]

And it was no small part that Italy was rebuked at Versailles that led Italy down the road to joining Germany in world war 2. There was much bitterness over the treatment Italy received during this process, if you are to be doing a comprehensive mod I would hope knowledge of such a simple thing would be known by someone on your team. And hopefully any of the exploits by Italians in the inter-war period to bring portions of Italia Irredenta unclaimed into the fold. Rijeka simply by being Fiume should belong as an Italian claim. Oh well I guess I should be happy thattParadox managed to get the flag displayed properly in game this time.

You are confusing CLAIMS with CORE PROVINCES. It was one thing for Italy to see these territories as 'cores', but more importantly, what the people who lived there (the majority of people) thought of being a part of Italy. Italy could have fumed and screamed at the fact that these territories were lost to them at Versailles, but it doesn't matter one bit.

Most importantly, we must see how the people of the region would react to an Italian occupation.

 

[Captain Frakas]

what the people who lived there (the majority of people) thought of being a part of Italy.

IMO, not the majority, but at least a good part of it...

 

[Herr Doctor]

I question whether there really is all that much claim by Italy to those areas. During the negotiations for the Versailles Treaty, the Italians weren't able to convince the other countries that they had a legitimate claim to anything but very small areas on the Yugoslav coast and those claims were considered very weak and they certainly weren't as large as any of the HoI2 provences.

I would question whether they should get any claim to those territories, and if they do, I really don't think that they should be considered national provences in terms of revolt risk and production.

If we do decide that Germany and Italy get these ahistorical claims, it should be REALLY rare in terms of occurance. MDow

You are right of course. But according to your logic all claims (including those of Poland and Germany) should go.

 

[Herr Doctor]

You are confusing CLAIMS with CORE PROVINCES. It was one thing for Italy to see these territories as 'cores', but more importantly, what the people who lived there (the majority of people) thought of being a part of Italy. Italy could have fumed and screamed at the fact that these territories were lost to them at Versailles, but it doesn't matter one bit.

Most importantly, we must see how the people of the region would react to an Italian occupation.

Do you know any big partisan activities in Tunis, Fiume, Corsica or Savoy? Or even Albania?

 

[Captain Frakas]

Do you know any big partisan activities in Tunis, Fiume, Corsica or Savoy? Or even Albania?

I don't know for Fiume or Albania, but :

Tunis is a colony, and colony have less partisan activity, no need of core provinces for that, but adding cores provinces also have effects on productivity. But if you said that there where a big minority of italian people in Tunis, i'm not against cores here.

Corsica, yes, there where big partisan activities (as in the other parts of France). They never liked the italian occupations and joined the maquis. In september 1943, Corsica was liberated by partisan uprising (and the help of some commandos)

In Savoy, in January 1944, 500 partisan uprising, but they wheres defeted by some thousand of german soldiers and a same number of vichy millician...

 

[Sparrow]

What am I confusing? Fiume should be a claim if not a core. I was just expanding on the subject a bit, is this not allowed?

 

[Captain Frakas]

For the game engine, claimed provinces are non owned coreprovinces

 

[unmerged(51143)]

I don't know for Fiume or Albania, but :

Tunis is a colony, and colony have less partisan activity, no need of core provinces for that, but adding cores provinces also have effects on productivity. But if you said that there where a big minority of italian people in Tunis, i'm not against cores here.

Corsica, yes, there where big partisan activities (as in the other parts of France). They never liked the italian occupations and joined the maquis. In september 1943, Corsica was liberated by partisan uprising (and the help of some commandos)

In Savoy, in January 1944, 500 partisan uprising, but they wheres defeted by some thousand of german soldiers and a same number of vichy millician...

Corses were (and are) revolting from centuries against any occupier, Genoa as France as Italy; but for language (dialect) and tradition they are ethnically Italian, original Corses not French immigrants of course. I know a former Italian officier who occupied Corsica in 1942-43 and he confirmed Italian troops had a warm welcoming and no language problem. Probably there were some "maquis" teams (not from indipendentist side), but they never were a serious matter. Corsica was never free by any partisan uprising, but was kept by Italian troops and some local partisans, latter reinforced by Free France troops, on september 1943 against landing Reichsfuehrer-SS mechanised brigade and the 90th armoured division, under the command of von Senger und Etterlin; Germans had 4,000 losses, while Italians had 637 dead and 2317 wounded men. It was one of the few real Italian victories against Germans and in the whole war.

Savoy-1944 was surely not an Italian matter!