I was thinking it would be nice to see a slightly more fleshed-out overlord system in Stellaris -- one with at least one more styles and dynamic of overlordship, taking into account all of the different ways empires have been and are maintained. Of course, we already have the 'tributary' and 'vassal' system of overlordship. Both of these, while different in some ways regarding their actual degree of sovereignty, ultimately amount to paying out taxes or taxes/'levies' to their overlord. These were the systems we saw from the Imperial Roman days through medieval times.
There are then colonies which, unlike in EU4 (where the systems, controls, sovereignty and relationships were appropriately modeled after the British, Spanish, and French empires), are much more integrated into your main empire in Stellaris and there is far less to no virtually overlord relationship that takes place, except to a slight extent putting them under 'Sectors' and the controls (and autonomous separation, revolt risk, etc) that come with that. While it would have been nice to see some more interesting dynamics leaning slightly more towards EU4 wrt 'colonies' (degrees of autonomy vs taxation, choosing governors, liberty desire, etc), I think I (thematically) understand why they opted for more direct control with an interstellar empire despite there being arguments on both sides regarding that. But I digress.
My idea is thus...
... there should also be another very different style of overlordship -- one that is far more secretive and indirect. It would maintain a 'kind of' legal sovereignty of the original rulers/government of the puppet empire from their 'overlord', while there remains a degree of significant financial dependance upon said overlord. This is a much more modern kind of indirect imperialism and political control (and I don't mean to make the discussion political or detract from what I'm suggesting, but one might argue similar to how the United States controls/has controlled governments around the world, especially dictatorships).
This style of overlordship, for now let's call it a 'Proxy' or, better yet, a 'Puppet' government, could be attained after conquering an enemy in war. It could look to other enemies/allies/neutral empires as if the conquered in the war was set free, but only the conquering government would know/see that they're actually their puppet. A puppet could also be attained if some other kinds of political intrigue dynamics were used over a greater or lesser dedication of time and/or resources to engage in a coup, especially over a much smaller and/or weaker government system, although this method of attain a puppet might require a DLC or more intrigue systems added in (though it could be a slightly different way it's currently done with inferior, non space-faring lesser races). I also don't see why this couldn't be another kind of evolution from positive diplomatic relations over time where someone may ask or be asked to become a 'puppet'.
Instead of regularly receiving taxes/levies like from a vassal/tributary, depending on the size and government style (and maybe other factors) of the desired puppet empire, such a relationship would require a regular *contribution* (in the form of 'maintenance') of resources (at least energy, possibly also some minerals) from their overlord to the puppet. In return, the overlord would receive 'hidden' (from other empires') access to any/all of their strategic resources, along with having a degree of control over the kind of policies the puppet is to put into place, a lifted fog of war and complete access to their interstellar map at all times, and ability to see any of their other diplomatic arrangements, past and present. If additional incentive is needed for the overlord, perhaps the puppet would share some of the technology advancements they also make that the overlord doesn't have. Also, puppets may engage in their own otherwise completely sovereign diplomatic relationships, but would have some of their options restricted (or auto denied / grayed out) if it were to interfere with this puppet relationship. In addition, they may be a hidden ally as well, but they could freely accept or turn down the request of their overlord for assistance in war, just as the overlord may accept or turn it down.
Any 'hidden' relationships/exchanges/etc between overlord/puppet would not be stated anywhere in the game to empires outside of this relationship, though it's possible such a relationship might be deduced (though perhaps with plausible deniability, of course!). And though you may be able to deduce that n empire may be 'a puppet' -- you don't necessarily know who the overlord is. And though you may be able to deduce that an empire is an overlord of a puppet(s), it could be harder to deduce who those puppets actually are. All of this is just the nature of the beast.
Of course, the 'maintenance' in energy (and again, maybe also minerals) would make it increasingly difficult to maintain or even initially attain a puppet beyond a certain size relative to the size of your empire, unless you're particularly wealthy as a more medium or smaller sized empire. This could especially lend itself to empire players and/or AIs who are using more of a 'growing tall' vs 'growing wide' economic and military strategy. It would add another interesting way to play, making yourselves more of a 'behind the scenes' or 'man behind the curtain' style of play, building very tall while maintaining control and influence through sheer dependence on your highly efficient economic might, and will lead to a less military/war styled play of conquering the galaxy vs more of a kind of constant internal/political management of your empire and that of your puppets (which you might want to maintain or influence to shift as monarchies or dictatorships, as they'd be easier to directly control and minimize revolt risk, etc).
At the same time of this, while the overlord will definitely get a good amount of, though not total, control, influence, and access to strategic resources over these puppets, the puppets would get something out of the deal as well -- much more resources than they'd otherwise be getting, while still maintaining more direct control than they'd otherwise have. They could much more easily throw off puppet governments through revolt if they're increasingly unhappy, or even the rulers/government itself could throw off the overlord, but they may end up cutting their energy (and perhaps mineral) income in half, or more. These additional resources will make them want to stay puppets, but only for as long as they feel they have gotten big enough where the overlord can't satiate their size, any more, before throwing them off.
Yes, there are ways to 'model' a lot of what I'm talking about in such a relationship with current, in-game mechanics and diplomatic arrangements, but it would be very tedious and require constant revisiting between the empires. If anything, though, I see this as an argument as to how relatively easy it could be to implement for the devs since it wouldn't require adding in a whole bunch of new game mechanics, anywhere near as much testing, balancing, etc.
Thoughts? Suggestions of other additions, ideas, criticisms, balance issues to be hashed out? I think this is something that, if fleshed out a bit more could really add a nice,much needed additional layer and different style of gameplay to the game.
There are then colonies which, unlike in EU4 (where the systems, controls, sovereignty and relationships were appropriately modeled after the British, Spanish, and French empires), are much more integrated into your main empire in Stellaris and there is far less to no virtually overlord relationship that takes place, except to a slight extent putting them under 'Sectors' and the controls (and autonomous separation, revolt risk, etc) that come with that. While it would have been nice to see some more interesting dynamics leaning slightly more towards EU4 wrt 'colonies' (degrees of autonomy vs taxation, choosing governors, liberty desire, etc), I think I (thematically) understand why they opted for more direct control with an interstellar empire despite there being arguments on both sides regarding that. But I digress.
My idea is thus...
... there should also be another very different style of overlordship -- one that is far more secretive and indirect. It would maintain a 'kind of' legal sovereignty of the original rulers/government of the puppet empire from their 'overlord', while there remains a degree of significant financial dependance upon said overlord. This is a much more modern kind of indirect imperialism and political control (and I don't mean to make the discussion political or detract from what I'm suggesting, but one might argue similar to how the United States controls/has controlled governments around the world, especially dictatorships).
This style of overlordship, for now let's call it a 'Proxy' or, better yet, a 'Puppet' government, could be attained after conquering an enemy in war. It could look to other enemies/allies/neutral empires as if the conquered in the war was set free, but only the conquering government would know/see that they're actually their puppet. A puppet could also be attained if some other kinds of political intrigue dynamics were used over a greater or lesser dedication of time and/or resources to engage in a coup, especially over a much smaller and/or weaker government system, although this method of attain a puppet might require a DLC or more intrigue systems added in (though it could be a slightly different way it's currently done with inferior, non space-faring lesser races). I also don't see why this couldn't be another kind of evolution from positive diplomatic relations over time where someone may ask or be asked to become a 'puppet'.
Instead of regularly receiving taxes/levies like from a vassal/tributary, depending on the size and government style (and maybe other factors) of the desired puppet empire, such a relationship would require a regular *contribution* (in the form of 'maintenance') of resources (at least energy, possibly also some minerals) from their overlord to the puppet. In return, the overlord would receive 'hidden' (from other empires') access to any/all of their strategic resources, along with having a degree of control over the kind of policies the puppet is to put into place, a lifted fog of war and complete access to their interstellar map at all times, and ability to see any of their other diplomatic arrangements, past and present. If additional incentive is needed for the overlord, perhaps the puppet would share some of the technology advancements they also make that the overlord doesn't have. Also, puppets may engage in their own otherwise completely sovereign diplomatic relationships, but would have some of their options restricted (or auto denied / grayed out) if it were to interfere with this puppet relationship. In addition, they may be a hidden ally as well, but they could freely accept or turn down the request of their overlord for assistance in war, just as the overlord may accept or turn it down.
Any 'hidden' relationships/exchanges/etc between overlord/puppet would not be stated anywhere in the game to empires outside of this relationship, though it's possible such a relationship might be deduced (though perhaps with plausible deniability, of course!). And though you may be able to deduce that n empire may be 'a puppet' -- you don't necessarily know who the overlord is. And though you may be able to deduce that an empire is an overlord of a puppet(s), it could be harder to deduce who those puppets actually are. All of this is just the nature of the beast.
Of course, the 'maintenance' in energy (and again, maybe also minerals) would make it increasingly difficult to maintain or even initially attain a puppet beyond a certain size relative to the size of your empire, unless you're particularly wealthy as a more medium or smaller sized empire. This could especially lend itself to empire players and/or AIs who are using more of a 'growing tall' vs 'growing wide' economic and military strategy. It would add another interesting way to play, making yourselves more of a 'behind the scenes' or 'man behind the curtain' style of play, building very tall while maintaining control and influence through sheer dependence on your highly efficient economic might, and will lead to a less military/war styled play of conquering the galaxy vs more of a kind of constant internal/political management of your empire and that of your puppets (which you might want to maintain or influence to shift as monarchies or dictatorships, as they'd be easier to directly control and minimize revolt risk, etc).
At the same time of this, while the overlord will definitely get a good amount of, though not total, control, influence, and access to strategic resources over these puppets, the puppets would get something out of the deal as well -- much more resources than they'd otherwise be getting, while still maintaining more direct control than they'd otherwise have. They could much more easily throw off puppet governments through revolt if they're increasingly unhappy, or even the rulers/government itself could throw off the overlord, but they may end up cutting their energy (and perhaps mineral) income in half, or more. These additional resources will make them want to stay puppets, but only for as long as they feel they have gotten big enough where the overlord can't satiate their size, any more, before throwing them off.
Yes, there are ways to 'model' a lot of what I'm talking about in such a relationship with current, in-game mechanics and diplomatic arrangements, but it would be very tedious and require constant revisiting between the empires. If anything, though, I see this as an argument as to how relatively easy it could be to implement for the devs since it wouldn't require adding in a whole bunch of new game mechanics, anywhere near as much testing, balancing, etc.
Thoughts? Suggestions of other additions, ideas, criticisms, balance issues to be hashed out? I think this is something that, if fleshed out a bit more could really add a nice,much needed additional layer and different style of gameplay to the game.
