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BloodAsp

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Hi,

I am quite new to HOI 3 (played HOI 2 A LOT). Can someone please help with few questions I have?

  1. Upgrading - when you have outdated 1918 equipment, and researched 1940 - would divisions get 1940 stuff automatically, or I have through 1936, 1938, etc? In HoI 2 you had to leapfrog, but it was cheaper so I only upgraded just BEFORE the war.
  2. What part of ships I can upgrade? AA, Radar and Torpedoes only?
  3. Will upgrading Inf to Mot give me Mobile Unit practical?
  4. And most important I could use some advice on division building. So we are assuming I am a noob and only play strong countries without resource/IC problems, latecomers to war (US and USSR). Here are my division compositions:
    a) Basic INF - 3xINF + Art, + AT after superior firepower. No surprises there.
    b) Motorized Mutant - supposedly motorized division - 1LA +2XMot + 1SPART\1SPRART + 1 TD after SF. Not sure if that one is efficient...
    c) Armour - 1HA + 1ARM + 1MECH + 1SPART+ 1TD after SF
    d) Marines? How many should I haver per div, and how many divs should I build for single landing?
    I like HA, sounds cool (slow but cool), but not sure if they are worth it (4 extra research slots to keep up, good thing they share with rest of tanks). I never use Mountain, AC or ENG - just disband. I always upgrade GAR to INF, and CAV to MOT/LA - should I disband them instead and build from scratch?
 

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Mountaineers have a tiny bit more defensiveness than regular infantry. This can help your defense a bit. I like mixing a Guard unit (for Russia) with 2xMTN to add a little offensive punch. And if I put an infantry brigade with a HQ unit, it's almost always a Mountain brigade.

Engineers are great in urban areas, both defensively and offensively.

Marines are generally good for offensive thrusts. They have the tiny bit more Toughness than regular infantry, so they can push an attack. I *think* they operate a bit better in urban areas, too.

When you upgrade tech, the new tech doesn't come in automatically for equipment. Doctrines do. When you upgrade an 'equipment' tech (Small Arms for Infantry), the existing units will increase the IC needed for Upgrades (on the Production Screen). Any unit already in the production queue will build the older gear. Only a new unit added to the queue after the tech upgrade actually has the latest and greatest. Basically, when you add something to the production queue, it gets the best money can buy (unless you specifically select older technology). The cost of the unit reflects the hardware costs it is built with, so you can see a 3xINF+ART in the queue with one cost, and another 3xINF+ART with a different cost -- the two were put into the queue with different technology.

Disbanding. I don't precisely know, but I think that is generally not a good idea. Unless you're doing a custom start (I wouldn't recommend until you've messed with HOI3 a bit), disbanding a unit doesn't return the MP to your manpower pool. Quite a few countries are MP dependent. Maybe someone else will offer a better understanding.

One other thing about HOI3. A defensive war is extremely frustrating to play. It's demanding, and requires knowledge of the mechanics of the game in order to hold your own. Even then, the ORG of a unit will eventually fall, and the aggressor will simply push you around the map. France, Russia and China fall into this category; I wouldn't recommend either of those for your first game.

I'm currently working a 7th or 8th try at Russia. I've used variations of your motorized unit heavily. The LARM really doesn't add much, and the LC for upgrading to SPART is pretty extensive for the Russians. You might experiment with 3xMOT+support units. I'd rather work on the disciplines and learn SPRART to put my research into better areas. (MOT is the most research intensive unit I've found -- it's affected by regular infantry techs, and LARM techs with a pair of dedicated disciplines).

And there's not much faster than an LARM+AC. Good for exploiting your own breakouts and the inevitable leaky spots in your line.
 

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1. They have to go through the previous upgrades, but I believe it is a little faster to upgrade them after you have the next update.

2. That's right.

3. Yes.

4.
a) Nothing wrong there, as the Soviets I tend to put the third INF brigade in after Superior Firepower, so I have Piercing right at the beginning of the war, but it's definitely micro-hell to rearrange everything.
b) TD in that division slows it way down, I'd either drop it or go with ARM instead of LA.
c) Nothing wrong there, it's probably not optimal to have to research another 3 or 4 tank techs (IIRC one of the HARM techs also improves TD), and the HARM is going to slow it down, but it's going to be sturdy as hell.
d) 1 corps of 3x MAR is fine for all but the most fortified of landings, you can go 4x MAR or 5x MAR also, and some people like 4x MAR + 1x ENG but I personally don't think that the fuel costs are worth it, it sucks having your Marine divisions getting bogged down because of bad infrastructure when you want to pull them off the front for another amphibious landing.

I think upgrading brigades is basically always better than disbanding them: it's faster to upgrade than to build them for scratch, and I think you get the same practicals, and you keep any unit experience. The only hypothetical scenario that I can think of to disband and build divisions from scratch is if you have effectively unlimited time before the war, low experience units that you can improve on with a better training policy, or if you need to convert regular brigades to reserve brigades for the CG savings. I don't think I've ever felt the need to disband brigades just to rebuild them.
 

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A few clarifications:

2. Add ASW for escorts to the list, otherwise it's just AA and radar for capital ships, and those and torpedoes for subs.

3. Upgrading INF to MOT will provide some mobile practical, but less than if you built the MOT from scratch. If you have a highly experienced INF division, it may be worth upgrading, otherwise I'd build a fresh division.

4. Division design is a complex issue, depending heavily on what country you're playing and who you're fighting. Normally you'll want at least 2 INF brigades in an INF division for the higher toughness and defensiveness. For most of my games, I run 3xINF+ART, with a few divisions of 2xINF+ART+AT to deal with enemy armor. If you're playing Japan and fighting against China, for example, you don't need the AT. If you're playing Germany facing the Soviets, or vice versa, it's essential, although not necessarily in every division. Be mindful that AT has very weak Soft Attack, and is the worst thing besides MPs that you can put in a division that's facing an infantry division. Since MOST of the divisions you'll fight will be INF, putting AT in every last division costs you a lot of firepower and a division slot that might have been better used in something like half of your divisions. ART will offer more sheer firepower than another INF brigade, but provides less Toughness and Defensiveness, and costs more IC but less Manpower, so your choice will depend on what you can afford and what you're facing.

4b. Armored divisions only need ONE armor division of some kind to provide the division's Armor rating (which can be defeated by the opponent's Piercing stat), that provides a large set of penalties for any opposing divisions unable to pierce it. Armor is expensive to build, and expensive to supply, so you don't want to put 2 in a division if one will do the job. If you build the division with Light Armor, its main advantage is speed, so you want fast brigades to go with it for exploitation purposes: MOT and Armored Cars. If you use ARM, then it's got better Armor and Piercing stats, and is better suited to attacking, not outmaneuvering, and you can saddle it with SPART or TD without losing much speed. HARM is a specialty unit, slow and VERY expensive to build and supply, but VERY powerful, so you want to maximize its primary strength of low softness by accompanying it with MEC and SPART, which have decent hardness of their own.

ENG, AC, MTN, and GAR have their places as specialty units, but aren't something you want in quantity. I generally try to put one ENG brigade in one division per Corps, because they're clearly superior against fortifications, river crossings, and dense woods, but as pathetically awful in the open plains as AT is against infantry. They're something that you really want to have one where and when it's needed, but more than a handful or so in your army is a waste. AC provides a speed bonus to its entire division in several types of terrain, so a fast exploitation division (Light Armor) can benefit greatly, and it helps lower the division's overall softness. Basically, it's a cheap filler brigade for a LARM division, especially before SPART is available. I also use them with MOT or CAV to park on airfields (AC is a "support" brigade, like ART, AT, HQs, and SHARM, and can't fight without being combined with a "line" brigade), to insure a supply of fuel BEFORE I rebase aircraft there, and to chase down occasional Partisans. MTN and MAR are great for their respective Mountain and Amphibious Assault bonuses, and have slightly higher ORG than normal INF, but their higher cost prohibits fielding them in large numbers. They also fare badly against Armor. GAR are best parked in ports or occupied/annexed cities that you can't afford to lose, and reduce Revolt Risk slightly in the surrounding provinces. They cost slightly less than INF, use 1/3 the officers, eat considerably less supply, and hold the province defensively almost as well as INF.....just don't ask them to go on the offensive or go anywhere quickly. MIL moves a bit faster, fights offensively somewhat better (still considerably worse than INF), defends worse than GAR, and provides no suppression of revolts, but uses 1/10th the officers of INF, is somewhat cheaper, and is frugal with supplies: best used in areas of really pathetic Infrastructure where regular INF will suffer shortages, or in huge waves that overwhelm by sheer numbers to offset their limited combat value.

A fifth brigade can be a helpful addition to a division, or a needless extra expense to supply where a 4 brigade division will do the job. I use them sparingly, if at all.
 
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BloodAsp

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Thank you all for advice.
Since we have such supportive community here I have few more things that come to my mind:
1. What is the use for special units? Waffen SS ok, I will use MOT anyway... But guards for example? They look like regular inf, just more expensive, and require additional doctrine to be usefull - Special Forces - whixh I don't think I will need as SU... What is the limit on theese brigades? 10? 15?
2. I am still not sure how many marine BRIGADES I should build. Full corps? That would be 5 divs x 5 brigades each = 25? I know I might be annoying here, but in HOI 2 there was very hard cap on them - attacking with more than 4 incurred major penalties.
3. Should I include my HQs (corps) in battles?
4. Regular artillery vs rocket - ART wins due to being accessible earlier. What about SPART vs SPRART?
 

marxianTJ

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1. Special units tend to be a lot hardier in combat - for example guards units have incredibly high morale (the highest of any land unit IIRC) and the highest defense modifier in the game next to Heavy Armor and Super-Heavy Armor. What that all ends up meaning is that they will recover their org *extremely* quickly after a battle and any attacking force will be less able to hit them than they would say a regular INF brigade. So they're really good at defending hard targets (cities) or being used as your attack initiators (since they recover org faster than your other infantry type units they'll be ready to fight again sooner if you put them in a hard battle). Most nation's special units have those "special case" uses.

2. It depends on the country for marines. If you're playing a major it's always nice to have at least 2-3 because they not only are the best for naval invasions, but they fight really well in some awful terrain types lol. So if you end up fighting in marshes or jungles it's nice to have some marines on hand to send there. If you intend to do a LOT of fighting in poor terrain types it's better to have even more marines (Japan for example who will do lots of naval invasions and quite a bit of jungle/marsh fighting).

3. Some people like to include combat units with their HQs and the benefit is that your whole OOB will gain experience faster, but I prefer just to leave my HQs out of it because it's a little more micro when building divisions to attach units to your HQs and I'm lazy.

4. Regular ART is preferred by most players because you can build it a lot earlier and upgrade it much earlier. If you wait for the rocket units, the advantage is that they draw less supply than regular art units do (but do slightly less damage). So, I would only advise building them at all if you have a huge surplus of leadership available for research, and also intend to do a lot of fighting in areas that have very poor infra (so you can put marginally more divisions into said poor infra with more firepower without eating all of your supplies). But if you have a *lot* of very poor infra it's still not worth it - for example if you're playing a Chinese faction, it's pretty tough to include any ART at all without risking major supply problems.
 

Palmerdale

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If you're building large numbers of Marines, you are going to want Special Forces. That covers Marines, Mountaineers and Airborne troops, plus the all of the special infantry units like Guards, Waffen, Alpinas, Rangers, etc. Putting troops in the field without the technology or disciplines to support them just seems wrong. That's WWI all over again.

As for Russian Guards, the number seems to start out at 14, but grows as the game progresses. My guess is that the number of specialists a country can field is related to the National Unity or something. In my current Russia experiment, I think I have 22 guards units on the map or in production in June 41. All of the special infantry units are basically a combination of both the Defensiveness of Mountaineers with the Toughness of Marines. This makes them adept at both offense and defense. I'm hoping that units of 1xGRD, 2xMTN, ART, AT backed by 3xMTN, ART will stump the German advance a bit better than previous attempts.
 

Count Blue

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As for Russian Guards, the number seems to start out at 14, but grows as the game progresses. .

From the Wiki:
"The latest "Their Finest Hour" expansion introduced elite units for the seven major powers. These units are unique for each country and each has special bonuses. Due to their elite status, each nation is able to build a limited amount of elite units, with a minimum of 6 brigades and a maximum of 4% of total infantry brigades."

;)
 

Palmerdale

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From the Wiki:
"The latest "Their Finest Hour" expansion introduced elite units for the seven major powers. These units are unique for each country and each has special bonuses. Due to their elite status, each nation is able to build a limited amount of elite units, with a minimum of 6 brigades and a maximum of 4% of total infantry brigades."

;)
Sorry, but the wiki is wrong on that point. And it's painfully easy to test. Start a Russian campaign game. On Jan 1, 1936, build some Guard brigades. It lets me build 14 Guard brigades, but not 15. A quick search through the OOB shows no Guard units on the map. So that's a total of 14.
 

marxianTJ

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Well raw infantry divisions only it should only allow 12 guards divisions at game start (if you round up) - so perhaps it also counts some combination of MTN/GAR/CAV/MOT as infantry too towards its calculation of allowable guards units. That or it's not 4% and is actually a different %.

If I had to hazard a guess it's that its counting GAR and MTN as infantry too as the USSR starts with 9 GAR brigades IIRC and somewhere around 30 MTN brigades - and adding that to the total of 294 INF brigades x.04 will net you 13.32 allowable brigades - so perhaps it just automatically rounds up to from there to 14 and thus is 4% + rounding up.
 
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Count Blue

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Sorry, but the wiki is wrong on that point..

Not really....What marxian said.... 4 % of the russian army is quite a lot. And yes all inf units count MTN CAV MIL....all
 

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Not really....What marxian said.... 4 % of the russian army is quite a lot. And yes all inf units count MTN CAV MIL....all

'Minimum' is clearly wrong. Russia starts with 0 Guards deployed or in production. A more accurate statement would be "A country can field a total of 4% of their base brigades as Elite brigades."

But from this discussion, I've learned that building 25 regular INF brigades will allow you to build 1 extra Elite brigade. But I do have one final question on this -- does the 4% include all brigades affected by the Infantry technologies (INF, MTN, MAR, AIR, MOT, MEC and CAV) or is this a hybrid list only including including INF, MTN, MAR, AIR, GAR and MIL (excluding the mobile units)? The GAR and MIL aren't affected by the base Infantry technologies. It seems odd that the developers would have done so much to segregate the Militia, Mobile and Infantry techs, but then lump some of them into a special category that determines something else (# of Elite brigades). I suspect that a late night during development caused a minor confusion resulting in this inconsistency.
 

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I think you're misreading the statement. It means that you can build 4% of your brigade total as guards OR a minimum of 6 - whichever number is greater (for example if you deleted all of the USSR's land brigades at game start, it would still allow you to build 6 guards brigades). I suspect it might actually just be total land brigades, but that would require me to build a ton of armor brigades to test it out lol.

It is really strange either way - nobody can tell what they were thinking with making CAV/MIL separate from INF or the wacky way the 3 armor trees influence mobile units lol.
 

Phili

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2. I am still not sure how many marine BRIGADES I should build. Full corps? That would be 5 divs x 5 brigades each = 25? I know I might be annoying here, but in HOI 2 there was very hard cap on them - attacking with more than 4 incurred major penalties.
3. Should I include my HQs (corps) in battles?


2. I like to use 3 Marines to a Division some with an Engineer. 3 Marine Divisions to a Corps and 2 additional Divisions that compensate for the Marines weaknesses like lack of AT firepower.

3. I like to include 2Inf + Art with my infantry HQ's and 2Mot + AC with my Panzer or Armour HQ's. It gives my HQ Leaders a chance to gain levels especially those with more than one trait who might make good Army or Army group leaders later on. For an Army as big as the Soviets that could be expensive.
 

BloodAsp

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Thank you all for your help (again :) )
Few more coming:
1. Which AIR doctrines are worth taking for TAC and INT? Ground Crew Training & Pilot Training look promising... What about Interception Tactics? Also will Ground Attack Tactics be applied to TAC as well(it is in CAS tree)? What Tactical Air Command is really doing? I used to have pokemon approach to them (gotta catch them all), just recently I started READING what they all do, and found out that most of them are really BAD (like targeting ones).
2. Battleflett composition tactics - so I read that there are ideal battle groups.... But let's face it: it is 1941, I play US, Day of Infamy just happened. What is stopping me from amalgamating my WHOLE US fleet into 1 stack of reconning and heading for Japan to deal with them Cushima style (except for range, but let's not consider that for a moment). In HOI2 I used massed fleets and they never failed me....

Also do you know that Light Bomb repeating tech is not empowering TAC? Reading is awesome :)
 

Mebsuta

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With permission of the host I would like to take over for a bit and ask advice myself. Currently on my work break, but as soon as I get home I will resume what is so far my most successful game in my about two or less weeks playing. As some of you may already know I'm playing on very easy because this is my first Paradox game and one can't just say "ah fuck it I'll go hard on first try 'cuz Dark Souls memes". I'm playing as Axis Finland. It is just about Oct'43. I would say I am in a very tough situation right now. Germany, Hungary, Slovakia and Italy have been trying to invade Russia for two years now and can not get past Leningrad. Japan, Manchukuo, Siam and that other Japan puppet are trying to take India, Malasya, Indonesia and Australia.

I went bold and after almost starving two corps by rebasing them to Madagascar I was able to finally launch my assault on eastern Suez. Conquered Iraq, Oman and Yemen. Puppeted Saudi Arabia. Liberated the occupied Vichy France area between Turkey and Persia which eventually became their new capital as USA attempted to conquer them. Now I had to stop as I attempted to cross west. There is just a lot of shit there. Belgium troops, Netherlands troops, Canada, UK, South Africa... I am basically the only axis member attempting to take Africa and I am not insane enough to send reinforcements from the continent so that the Soviets decide to swarm me in a surprise DoW.

What troops should I buy or build at this time and situation for which front? And much more importantly... How the hell do I manually deploy troops straight off in the Middle East instead of having to drop them on Oslo or Malmö to transport them all the way to the Suez, risking getting them killed by UK and USA navy? Also, how do I help my Saudi puppets to stop sucking balls :mad:?

Oh and one more thing. Is it true that on Jan'48 the game ends as is and I can no longer do anything?
 

Palmerdale

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<snip>
How the hell do I manually deploy troops straight off in the Middle East instead of having to drop them on Oslo or Malmö to transport them all the way to the Suez, risking getting them killed by UK and USA navy?

Sorry, all troops must be deployed to a province in direct land-based supply with your capital. In the case of Finland, that would be Helsinki. The only way to deploy into the Saudi area is to ensure a land-based route from Helsinki to the destination province. This can run through faction member territory, so that helps. I'm guessing that if the Germans aren't doing well in Russia, Turkey is not in the Axis (or hasn't been conquered by the Axis), and that is blocking the deployment.

You've probably gotten a relatively passive Germany AI that hasn't pushed into Turkey. (Check for loads of German troops in Norway -- the AI is noted for that). My suggestion would be to take out Turkey to connect your remote invasion back to Helsinki. Go overland through German/Hungarian/Romanian territory and attack that way. I'd avoid reinforcing the invasion force until you link up.
 

Mebsuta

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Sorry, all troops must be deployed to a province in direct land-based supply with your capital. In the case of Finland, that would be Helsinki. The only way to deploy into the Saudi area is to ensure a land-based route from Helsinki to the destination province. This can run through faction member territory, so that helps. I'm guessing that if the Germans aren't doing well in Russia, Turkey is not in the Axis (or hasn't been conquered by the Axis), and that is blocking the deployment.

You've probably gotten a relatively passive Germany AI that hasn't pushed into Turkey. (Check for loads of German troops in Norway -- the AI is noted for that). My suggestion would be to take out Turkey to connect your remote invasion back to Helsinki. Go overland through German/Hungarian/Romanian territory and attack that way. I'd avoid reinforcing the invasion force until you link up.
Not viable. Neither Romania nor Bulgaria have joined the Axis and that too would block my deployment.

Germany isn't in Norway. I took Norway and Sweden in 38'-39' myself. That is why I suggested a deployment in Oslo and Malmö. But there is no way all the convoys will reach the eastern Suez. UK and USA patrol the mediterraneum and the surrounding waters of England.

So far the soviets aren't at war with me and I would like to keep it that way. However if I can not cross to the western Suez I would not mind helping against Russia. The axis army is right beneath me. All I have to do is push east. But I fear losing. I don't have much gaming experience raiding such a major power even tho I am 10 IC shy of becoming one myself.

Also worth noting... The only two corps I have in the middle east are all holding eastern Suez from allied retaliation. I left no troops on Iraq or the Vichy France new capital. Saudi troops are coming my way and both Turkey and Persia are potential allies, if not just meat shields against british forces in India and southern soviet forces... So not only do I not find it viable to invade them and Romania and Bulgaria... I also have no troops in that area. If I leave the eastern suez without supervision it will be retaken all the way up to Tel Aviv or Iraq all over again. And this time it won't be just UK and Iraq. It will be them, and every allied force in Africa trying to get a piece of cake.
 
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Palmerdale

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What about Greece? Did Germany or Italy take Yugoslavia and Greece? If that's not a viable route to Turkey, you might be in for a real problem -- either fight Russia or risk the Uk/US fleets.
 

Mebsuta

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What about Greece? Did Germany or Italy take Yugoslavia and Greece? If that's not a viable route to Turkey, you might be in for a real problem -- either fight Russia or risk the Uk/US fleets.
I do not remember. But you're right. I forgot that Turkey has borders not only with USSR, Persia, Romania and Bulgaria but also Greece. If Greece is taken then maybe reinforcements could be routed trough Albania or Yugoslavia if those have been taken too.

Can I deploy forces near Israel if Turkey gives me transit rights? Or do the HAVE to be axis for it to work? I really do not fancy losing all that I have gained on the east Suez and possibly even having allied forces swarming the Saudis because I relocated my corps to the north.

Is there no quick n' easy not savescum way to get my transport trough the allied navies? Is there no cheap navy I could buy to protect my transport? Or are navies uncapable of escorting transports?

My main question still remains what units would be better for which front. That remains unanswered and is perhaps my biggest issue. Getting an opening trough Turkey to take Africa is useless if I do not know what to build. It's a huge force that waits me there. I had never lost as much battles as when I tried to cross west yesterday night and the subsequent retaliation for doing that.

And also, you haven't answered wether or not the game will end in Jan'48. There are no victory coditions that I know of for the Axis on Africa. If I only have 4 years left I might as well push into the USSR so I can focus on UK and Hawaii later.
 
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