New gamer's perspective on Hearts of Iron4 (HOI4)

[omegacon4]

Thought I would share my perspective (coming from a casual gamer) on HOI4.

Just sat through a 7-part tutorial on Youtube which took 3+ hours of my life that I will never get back. All that just to get a basic understanding of how to play this complicated game.

I thought the GUI was fine. My issue is with how complex the game's mechanics are. I would have preferred the game had been more streamlined.

Then again, I am more interested in making "grand strategy" decisions, as opposed to min-maxing every variable in a game.

Decided not to waste any more of my free time on this game but may revisit at later on in life after I retire and have much more free time available to devote to a single game.

Not a total loss as I was able to buy this game on sale ($38 for 5 packs: Cadet Edition, Together for Victory, Death or Dishonor, Waking the Tiger, Man the Guns).

Moving on to Strategic Command WW2: World at War. Heard that that game's complexity falls between "Risk" and HOI4. At least that game looks like I don't have to spend hours watching tutorials just to learn the basics.

Forgot to add that I absolutely adore the HOI4 soundtrack. I think it is brilliant. If only the game matched the soundtrack in its ease of use for a casual gamer like me.

 

[kettyo]

It is not as horribly complex as it first seems unlike HOI3. And minmaxing is not a necessity. Hey speed 5 no pause games are a thing

 

[klinkvon13]

Moving on to Strategic Command WW2: World at War. Heard that that game's complexity falls between "Risk" and HOI4. At least that game looks like I don't have to spend hours watching tutorials just to learn the basics.

The learning curve of a game that claims to be "grand strategy" is obviously longer than a phone game.
It is unrealistic to expect a game to be able to last 400 to 2000 hours, or more, for many players to be actually perfectly understood and master in 2 hours.
For challenge to exists, a layer of complexity is required.

So, in the end, while obviously everything is perfectible, simplifying hoi4 is not an easy task. It is already one of the easiest-to-learn grand strategy game published by Paradox. For some players, in some regards it is already too simple to be smart. So any simplification might actually decrease it's value for initiated players.

 

[omegacon4]

It is not as horribly complex as it first seems unlike HOI3. And minmaxing is not a necessity. Hey speed 5 no pause games are a thing

Let's be honest here - any game that gives you control over as much details as HOI4 (or HOI 3 for that matter) EXPECTS you to min-max if you are serious about winning.

So while min-maxing may not be a necessity, gamers who are serious about winning while playing HOI4 min-max all day long.

 

[omegacon4]

The learning curve of a game that claims to be "grand strategy" is obviously longer than a phone game.
It is unrealistic to expect a game to be able to last 400 to 2000 hours, or more, for many players to be actually perfectly understood and master in 2 hours.
For challenge to exists, a layer of complexity is required.

So, in the end, while obviously everything is perfectible, simplifying hoi4 is not an easy task. It is already one of the easiest-to-learn grand strategy game published by Paradox. For some players, in some regards it is already too simple to be smart. So any simplification might actually decrease it's value for initiated players.

I have no interest in playing a phone game.

I also have no interest (at least at this point in time) in devoting my free-time learning to play a game where assuring victory requires that I determine the optimal division configuration,(40 vs 20), naval ship / sub configuration, civilian-to-military-factory ratio-to-convoy trading configuration,

For me at least, that is NOT grand strategy. That is micromanaging and min-maxing so that one does not have to focus on grand strategy.

To each, their own. For me, this is not a FUN game.

 

[Shetan]

Let's be honest here - any game that gives you control over as much details as HOI4 (or HOI 3 for that matter) EXPECTS you to min-max if you are serious about winning.

So while min-maxing may not be a necessity, gamers who are serious about winning while playing HOI4 min-max all day long.

That statement is true if we are talking about MP. In singleplayer game you can EASILY win without min-maxing.

 

[omegacon4]

That statement is true if we are talking about MP. In singleplayer game you can EASILY win without min-maxing.

Yes but that is mainly because the HOI4 AI leaves a lot to be desired in a singleplayer game.

And THAT is a topic for another day.

 

[Adolf - Finite War]

Well WWII was a very complex matter. Honestly I was quite disappointed cause I assumed way more complexity from what I heard about Paradox when I first started playing HOI4 - now there has been a lot of stuff added since then but the framework is still the same.

Btw if you don't artificially buff your enemies you'll do quite fine even if you don't use optimal templates. Just bring the right numbers & make sure the are supplied and you'll be fine even if you fail that as long as you manage to get a defense going you're still going to win as the enemies will grind themselves to death in stupid attacks most of the time.

 

[Simon_9732495]

For me at least, that is NOT grand strategy.

What IS grand strategy for you?

 

[omegacon4]

Well WWII was a very complex matter. Honestly I was quite disappointed cause I assumed way more complexity from what I heard about Paradox when I first started playing HOI4 - now there has been a lot of stuff added since then but the framework is still the same.

Btw if you don't artificially buff your enemies you'll do quite fine even if you don't use optimal templates. Just bring the right numbers & make sure the are supplied and you'll be fine even if you fail that as long as you manage to get a defense going you're still going to win as the enemies will grind themselves to death in stupid attacks most of the time.

Your tip works in singleplayer but only because the HOI4 AI is not as formidable as that of other strategy games.

But if you play MP (against other gamers), you must min-max most of HOI4's design elements if you are serious about winning.

 

[Vlad123]

I play normally in SP because not have the opportunity to organize MP for my IRL problem, but i prefer not use the Exploit of 40 CBW because for me is like cheat angaist a child...

 

[omegacon4]

What IS grand strategy for you?

For me at least, a grand strategy game is one where the game's mechanics are simple to learn (thanks to simplification of various systems) but coming up with a winning strategy is more challenging.

The game Chess is an example.

I readily admit that I have no interest in figuring out the optimal supply ratio for oil, rubber, etc. to optimal division configuration,(40 vs 20), naval ship / sub configuration, civilian-to-military-factory ratio-to-convoy trading configuration, etc.

I like how games like Strategic Command WW2: World at War simplifies the economy (economic growth / purchasing) to a single MPP metric. Leaves me to focus my time and effort on commanding my forces strategically to win the war.

 

[Shetan]

Yes but that is mainly because the HOI4 AI leaves a lot to be desired in a singleplayer game.

No it's because AI never min-maxing, so you don't need too. BTW if you only sat through tutorial, how did you know about AI.

 

[Shetan]

I like how games like Strategic Command WW2: World at War simplifies the economy (economic growth / purchasing) to a single MPP metric. Leaves me to focus my time and effort on commanding my forces strategically to win the war.

Ok, ok got it. Strategic Command WW2: World at War is the best strategic game.

 

[bitmode]

It is unrealistic to expect a game to be able to last 400 to 2000 hours, or more, for many players to be actually perfectly understood and master in 2 hours.
For challenge to exists, a layer of complexity is required.

So, in the end, while obviously everything is perfectible, simplifying hoi4 is not an easy task. It is already one of the easiest-to-learn grand strategy game published by Paradox.

The ideal for most games is "easy to learn, difficult to master". In my opinion hoi4 does rather bad on that metric. I have not really played any other Paradox GSG (two hours CK2), maybe they are even worse in that regard.

 

[Reman]

The ideal for most games is "easy to learn, difficult to master". In my opinion hoi4 does rather bad on that metric. I have not really played any other Paradox GSG (two hours CK2), maybe they are even worse in that regard.

I basically agree with this. Most GSGs end up being "difficult to learn, difficult to master". HoI4 can look like one of the easier PDS titles for a beginner, with things like the frontline system automating troop deployment and basic combat. But when that's not enough, it can be very difficult for a beginner to figure out what's going wrong. The best example of this is the division designer, which is an absolute delight for experienced players with lots of options for creative strategies. For a beginner, though, the division designer is practically inscrutable until you've reverse-engineered how all the stats end up functioning in practical circumstances.

 

[kettyo]

Let's be honest here - any game that gives you control over as much details as HOI4 (or HOI 3 for that matter) EXPECTS you to min-max if you are serious about winning.

So while min-maxing may not be a necessity, gamers who are serious about winning while playing HOI4 min-max all day long.

Depends on the type of game you play.

In competitive mutiplayer you have to minmax to help your team win the best you can.

In single player or co-op multiplayer minmaxing is not necessary as you can always beat the AI no matter what, so you can play how it's most fun to you. Even with Expert AI mod which improves the AI a lot minmaxing is still not necessary although you have to play sensibly otherwise you'll fail (no speed 5 no-pause there).

 

[Reman]

To the OP, the way your arguments are structured makes it sound like you just want to complain about the game in general rather than make any specific points.

As a newcomer, saying something like "this game has a poor tutorial, and many of the mechanics aren't explained well even by their own tooltips" is perfectly valid.

On the other hand, you're out of your depth when you start claiming you know how much micro or min-maxing is required to win, or how good the AI is relative to other games, or how much eco management is required compared to military control.

HoI4 has tons of flaws that become readily apparent when you start really understanding the game. As a newcomer, though, you should stick to criticizing things that immediately affect you.

 

[omegacon4]

To the OP, the way your arguments are structured makes it sound like you just want to complain about the game in general rather than make any specific points.

As a newcomer, saying something like "this game has a poor tutorial, and many of the mechanics aren't explained well even by their own tooltips" is perfectly valid.

On the other hand, you're out of your depth when you start claiming you know how much micro or min-maxing is required to win, or how good the AI is relative to other games, or how much eco management is required compared to military control.

HoI4 has tons of flaws that become readily apparent when you start really understanding the game. As a newcomer, though, you should stick to criticizing things that immediately affect you.

When one states that one has to go to YouTube to watch video tutorials just to learn the basics of HOI4, then one implies that the ingame tutorial is lacking and fails in its objective to teach newcomers how to play the game.

As for the rest of your thread, I do not need to drive a car off a cliff to know that doing so is detrimental to my health.

I made my points already. You probably did not think they were as detailed or defined to your liking. I am not surprised as you are used to playing games like HOI4 where every detail is min-maxed to your heart's content.

I've seen enough tutorials and lets' play HOI4 videos on YouTube to know that I am correct in my assessment of the game from my perspective as a casual gamer.

I also can tell when gamers devoted to HOI4 leap to its defense. And I am OK with that. Everyone is entitled to their perspectives.

I can also tell when gamers (who have devoted hundreds, if not thousands, of hours playing a game) do not want the game developers to listen to feedback from other gamers if it threatens the gameplay that they have spent their lives playing. I get it. I really do.

Just sharing a newcomer's perspective on HOI4 and why you will not find me playing MP with you or anyone else anytime soon (or singleplayer for that matter).

Forgot to add that I absolutely adore the HOI4 soundtrack. I think it is brilliant. If only the game matched the soundtrack in its ease of use for a casual gamer like me.

 

[Constans337]

For me at least, a grand strategy game is one where the game's mechanics are simple to learn (thanks to simplification of various systems) but coming up with a winning strategy is more challenging.

The game Chess is an example.

I readily admit that I have no interest in figuring out the optimal supply ratio for oil, rubber, etc. to optimal division configuration,(40 vs 20), naval ship / sub configuration, civilian-to-military-factory ratio-to-convoy trading configuration, etc.

I like how games like Strategic Command WW2: World at War simplifies the economy (economic growth / purchasing) to a single MPP metric. Leaves me to focus my time and effort on commanding my forces strategically to win the war.

Welcome to the forum.

HOI4 is a far more nuanced game than SC:WAW and after playing the former I can't go back to the latter. But more nuance requires more degrees of freedom and that comes at the price of more mechanics and complexity. The whole resource-industry-research-equipment-division-conquest nexus/loop is a facinating wargaming strategic problem to wrestle with in different national contexts. It brings rich reward for the time invested and that doesn't mean watching hours of videos but just getting stuck in and learning from mistakes and restarting. The game isn't nearly as complex mechanically as it looks (the way some of the UI options are set out, particualry with the navy, doesn't help with initial impressions).

I take your point about grand strategy and only making decisions at the most abstract level but pretty much all WW2 grand strategy games, using your definition, feel very samey to me because of the limited number of degrees of freedom you have to operate in because of this abstraction. On the other hand, HOI4 games feel fresher and the effort put into alt history is unsurpassed. If you're just starting out in strategy wargaming then I can see SC:WAW might be more your speed but for me it doesn't offer nearly as rich or varied an experience.