Pomerania Prince said:
But those are hardly the important countries.
We're talking large-scale war...even though that was one of the few player-country wars we've had.-
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But those are hardly the important countries.
We're talking large-scale war...even though that was one of the few player-country wars we've had.
Taelyn said:
Excellent point Taelyn, it is more fun not to have two concrete mega alliances squaring off against one another.
I know you weren't slamming Spain. In case we gave any non-game readers
I was explaining why Spain wasn't WAY out in front in income.
Hmmm, i have been a bad bad boy.... That's what happens when you decide to test-run your new weapons on African nations.
Dead, could you edit Louga and Senegal to the Papal States? Thanks.
That's what happens when you decide to test-run your new weapons on African nations. Dead, could you edit Louga and Senegal to the Papal States? Thanks.
Pomerania Prince said:
And then there was England+AI Spain vs netherlands-france-pope. Just a bit of action, but quite some tension
Hyzhenhok said:But those are hardly the important countries.
Are you trying to say that Austria, OE, Russia are not important???!!!
Even Persia which at that time was still run by human was big.
Wars
I think Hyz meant that there have been no global wars. That war, despite involving several players, was entirely confined to the Eastern part of Europe. In my Tuesday game, we had a war that was Ottomans, Mughals, Sweden, and France vs. Austria, England, Poland, Russia, Spain, and Portugal (with Brandenberg fighting on both sides at one point or another) in the early 1600s. There was fighting on every continent, even Australia.
Look at Mach II. I believe they're currently in a war that involves everyone but Russia as their two goliaths (France and Poland) duke it out across Europe.
Our Friday game has had nothing of that scale. Minor regional conflicts perhaps, but never anything global.
I think Hyz meant that there have been no global wars. That war, despite involving several players, was entirely confined to the Eastern part of Europe. In my Tuesday game, we had a war that was Ottomans, Mughals, Sweden, and France vs. Austria, England, Poland, Russia, Spain, and Portugal (with Brandenberg fighting on both sides at one point or another) in the early 1600s. There was fighting on every continent, even Australia.
Look at Mach II. I believe they're currently in a war that involves everyone but Russia as their two goliaths (France and Poland) duke it out across Europe.
Our Friday game has had nothing of that scale. Minor regional conflicts perhaps, but never anything global.
Gentlemen, I am beginning to reconsider moving to another country.
The Papal States is weak. Owning Venice or Genoa would do wonders for me, but with Venice allied to Austria, and Genoa having a CRT and a higher support limit, and a French vassal, my expansion optoins are limited. My economy is in shambles, and I have no idea how that happened, since I'm sure it was stronger three sessions ago. I'm pretty sure my inflation wasn't in the 20's either. Last session, I was appalled to find the AI had destroyed my vassalisations and my alliance, weakening my diplomatic position in Italy (which resulted in my attack and large gain in naughty chile points).
The Pope is hardly in any position to have any effect in this game. I've looked at the save, and apparently Brandenburg would be in the best position for player take-over. I'd like to take them over, unless we can somehow agree to editing removing Papal inflation and helping with tech, which is almost cheating...event though we did at some point remove Ottoman AI loans, if I remember correctly? The Papal lag in tech is a result of low Centralization and Innovativeness, which somehow I haven't been able to fix. Brandenburg also has attrotiously low Centralization, but at least they aren't down a CRT.
Anyway, if everyone disagrees I'll stick with a backward Pope, but.... Thoughts?
The Papal States is weak. Owning Venice or Genoa would do wonders for me, but with Venice allied to Austria, and Genoa having a CRT and a higher support limit, and a French vassal, my expansion optoins are limited. My economy is in shambles, and I have no idea how that happened, since I'm sure it was stronger three sessions ago. I'm pretty sure my inflation wasn't in the 20's either. Last session, I was appalled to find the AI had destroyed my vassalisations and my alliance, weakening my diplomatic position in Italy (which resulted in my attack and large gain in naughty chile points).
The Pope is hardly in any position to have any effect in this game. I've looked at the save, and apparently Brandenburg would be in the best position for player take-over. I'd like to take them over, unless we can somehow agree to editing removing Papal inflation and helping with tech, which is almost cheating...event though we did at some point remove Ottoman AI loans, if I remember correctly? The Papal lag in tech is a result of low Centralization and Innovativeness, which somehow I haven't been able to fix. Brandenburg also has attrotiously low Centralization, but at least they aren't down a CRT.
Anyway, if everyone disagrees I'll stick with a backward Pope, but.... Thoughts?
I think moving to BB will be a good idea. There is still some german minors to annex, and we can help you with the Prussia events (if everyone agrees).
I do worry however about the italian lands, no italian player means that those lands will be for grabs by either france or austria, which is not a good thing IMHO (even worse, they may decide to divide it between them)
Also, my ally, spain has already given up her italian lands, and we will support any of her claims on those lands, without validating anyone else's claims there.
I do worry however about the italian lands, no italian player means that those lands will be for grabs by either france or austria, which is not a good thing IMHO (even worse, they may decide to divide it between them)
Also, my ally, spain has already given up her italian lands, and we will support any of her claims on those lands, without validating anyone else's claims there.
I have no problem with someone wanting to move. I want Lombardia back and Naples as vassal. I would never have given them up for the AI.
Plz do not take it wrong way but I think that it is not fair to the rest of us.
I am definitely opposed to editing inflation or tech for anyone. That I will consider cheating. I was strongly opposed to OE editing and Hojo did moderate his needs for editing. It was only cash problem. If the Pope will get lower inflation of tech by editing than I will demand the same for Russia. I am not trying to be nasty or mean but I do believe that it is unfair to me and everyone else that was present every Friday to play. The fact that AI destroyed your economy is not our fault. We had this discussion before we started this game about subs, AIs and missing sections. I feel very strongly about this and it would definitely influence my decision to stay or to start playing crazy Russia(attack everyone no matter what cost and then ask for edit)
As to changing nations option. I believe that is better than than editing but still not a good one. I find it very discouraging to know that player can change nations every time AI did a mistake when he was out. I had a problem with change of nations by former Persian player but figured that was one time thing and OE is needed more. It was frustrating for me to find out that I will have AI running Persia. (it is not as much fun as a human player) specially after I had a war with him. In the event of the switch I believe that Spain should get back its Italian lands. I definitely will not support any help for Prussia but I am willing to add some $$ to the Pope(similar situation to the Hojo OE). I would suggest France and Austria giving up vassals in Italy and allowing Pope to attack them but by regular war not a edit. This is their decision if they wish to do it.
I am sorry that for taking such a strong stance on this issue but I feel that it can ruin my motivation to play.
I am definitely opposed to editing inflation or tech for anyone. That I will consider cheating. I was strongly opposed to OE editing and Hojo did moderate his needs for editing. It was only cash problem. If the Pope will get lower inflation of tech by editing than I will demand the same for Russia. I am not trying to be nasty or mean but I do believe that it is unfair to me and everyone else that was present every Friday to play. The fact that AI destroyed your economy is not our fault. We had this discussion before we started this game about subs, AIs and missing sections. I feel very strongly about this and it would definitely influence my decision to stay or to start playing crazy Russia(attack everyone no matter what cost and then ask for edit)
As to changing nations option. I believe that is better than than editing but still not a good one. I find it very discouraging to know that player can change nations every time AI did a mistake when he was out. I had a problem with change of nations by former Persian player but figured that was one time thing and OE is needed more. It was frustrating for me to find out that I will have AI running Persia. (it is not as much fun as a human player) specially after I had a war with him. In the event of the switch I believe that Spain should get back its Italian lands. I definitely will not support any help for Prussia but I am willing to add some $$ to the Pope(similar situation to the Hojo OE). I would suggest France and Austria giving up vassals in Italy and allowing Pope to attack them but by regular war not a edit. This is their decision if they wish to do it.
I am sorry that for taking such a strong stance on this issue but I feel that it can ruin my motivation to play.
If Hyz switches nations then i want Louga and Senegal back. Or atleast not edited to The Papal States.
Wow! I opened this folder and the controversy just attacked me In all seriousness, while I agree with PP on alot of points, I think something can be arranged to satisfy everyone.
If Hyzhen decides to stay Pope, I will drop the vassalization with Venice and have them leave my alliance even though I think they are out of it at the moment. Maybe a solution would be to edit the Pope's relations up to 200 with Venice and give him a chance to draw them into an alliance.
I also have no problem with Hyzhen in BB. It would make for a very interesting Northern Europe.
To be honest, when Hyzhen picked Papal States, I wondered how well he would do. I knew that would be a serious challenge considering all the large countries around him. I would say to PP that if we do not do something, Hyzhen may decide it is not worth the time on Friday. I myself would prefer him to be here instead of somewhere else.
In all seriousness, while I agree with PP on alot of points, I think something can be arranged to satisfy everyone. If Hyzhen decides to stay Pope, I will drop the vassalization with Venice and have them leave my alliance even though I think they are out of it at the moment. Maybe a solution would be to edit the Pope's relations up to 200 with Venice and give him a chance to draw them into an alliance.
I also have no problem with Hyzhen in BB. It would make for a very interesting Northern Europe.
To be honest, when Hyzhen picked Papal States, I wondered how well he would do. I knew that would be a serious challenge considering all the large countries around him. I would say to PP that if we do not do something, Hyzhen may decide it is not worth the time on Friday. I myself would prefer him to be here instead of somewhere else.
Papal States
Hyz,
I don't think the Pope suffers from anything that can't be solved in-game. I think you can exploit your diplomatic situation better than you have up until now. Most of the Catholic nations acknowledge that Genoa and Venice are within your zone of control. I bet Spain, Portugal, and Austria would even provide military or financial support in your conquering/annexing Genoa, and France would probably bend to international pressure to allow it.
Does Venice or Genoa still own islands? If so, I bet you could convince Austria, Spain, Portugal, or even the Ottomans (actually I think even Poland's navy is large enough to manage this) to conquer the islands so you can annex Venice.
As for cash, all of the Catholics should be helping out a bit (yeah, I've been naughty too). Even though you're a CRT behind, your manpower is substantial enough for you to be a force to be reckoned with (with funding..ahem Portugal and Spain). The Iberians donations to you give you the beginnings of a colonial empire, that should bring in a small amount of additional cash.
And while its true that Brandenberg is marginally stronger, its diplomatic situation is far, far worse. It borders three major nations, two of which don't want to see any parts of the HRE annexed and don't like Brandenberg's Protestantness. You'll also have a major struggle in winning back Prussia, which you need for the Prussian inheritance to fire. You may end up stuck as Brandenberg throughout the 1700s. No leaders, no great monarchs, no great events. Ick. Brandenberg's no easier than the Pope.
I suggest you stick with it in Italy. Speak up more, and I'm sure the others will lend a hand. Don't just complain, tell us what you want. You want me to stop blathering? Right then,
Edit: I don't think editing is a good solution for any of this. All of the problems here can be solved in game. Inflation and BB can be lowered over time, relations with Venice/Genoa can be improved with donated cash, and so on.
Hyz,
I don't think the Pope suffers from anything that can't be solved in-game. I think you can exploit your diplomatic situation better than you have up until now. Most of the Catholic nations acknowledge that Genoa and Venice are within your zone of control. I bet Spain, Portugal, and Austria would even provide military or financial support in your conquering/annexing Genoa, and France would probably bend to international pressure to allow it.
Does Venice or Genoa still own islands? If so, I bet you could convince Austria, Spain, Portugal, or even the Ottomans (actually I think even Poland's navy is large enough to manage this) to conquer the islands so you can annex Venice.
As for cash, all of the Catholics should be helping out a bit (yeah, I've been naughty too). Even though you're a CRT behind, your manpower is substantial enough for you to be a force to be reckoned with (with funding..ahem Portugal and Spain). The Iberians donations to you give you the beginnings of a colonial empire, that should bring in a small amount of additional cash.
And while its true that Brandenberg is marginally stronger, its diplomatic situation is far, far worse. It borders three major nations, two of which don't want to see any parts of the HRE annexed and don't like Brandenberg's Protestantness. You'll also have a major struggle in winning back Prussia, which you need for the Prussian inheritance to fire. You may end up stuck as Brandenberg throughout the 1700s. No leaders, no great monarchs, no great events. Ick. Brandenberg's no easier than the Pope.
I suggest you stick with it in Italy. Speak up more, and I'm sure the others will lend a hand. Don't just complain, tell us what you want. You want me to stop blathering? Right then,
Edit: I don't think editing is a good solution for any of this. All of the problems here can be solved in game. Inflation and BB can be lowered over time, relations with Venice/Genoa can be improved with donated cash, and so on.
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PP - I would agree with you, except the issue is Italy not the Lowlands. The Lowlands were effected by the AI taking Spain.
I willingly gave for free Milan to Hyz the Pope. I did this under pressure from everyone that the Pope should unifiy Italy. Same with Naples, I quit my attempt there at dipo-annexing for the Pope to expand in Naples.
Please get your facts straight before blaming my missing one frikking session.
I am getting really tired of accommodating others only to have come back and bite me in the ass at a later date.
Let me rephrase this - If Hyz wants to move - I demand Milan back. I gave to him when I was here, and I wouldn't have given it to AI Pope. Looks like I'll have to war with AI Pope over Naples (no editing possible.)
...and no there are no smilies in my post for a reason.
I willingly gave for free Milan to Hyz the Pope. I did this under pressure from everyone that the Pope should unifiy Italy. Same with Naples, I quit my attempt there at dipo-annexing for the Pope to expand in Naples.
Please get your facts straight before blaming my missing one frikking session.
I am getting really tired of accommodating others only to have come back and bite me in the ass at a later date.
Let me rephrase this - If Hyz wants to move - I demand Milan back. I gave to him when I was here, and I wouldn't have given it to AI Pope. Looks like I'll have to war with AI Pope over Naples (no editing possible.)
...and no there are no smilies in my post for a reason.
Game
Calm down everyone. I'm sure we'll be able to sort this out tonight. Speaking of which, is there anyone that can't make it? Sounds like Stonewall will show up to play something. Is Hojo able to make it too? Daedalus, things still looking good for you?
See yall tonight.
Calm down everyone. I'm sure we'll be able to sort this out tonight. Speaking of which, is there anyone that can't make it? Sounds like Stonewall will show up to play something. Is Hojo able to make it too? Daedalus, things still looking good for you?
See yall tonight.
Taelyn,
Let me take a shot at defusing a few things. This is what I propose. Since I am in a position to do so, I will annex Venice. Pope can then take Venice from me(as long as he gets a fleet. To placate the obvious nervousness this will cause OE, OE can then immediately take Cyprus(Venetian possesion) off of my hands. I hope this can placate everyone. The lack of a CoT for me has reached the point where I was almost going to annex Venice anyway. I would like to hear from OE as well as France. Russia, I am sure the thought of me taking most Italian lands if Hyzhen moves doesnt appeal to you either. Let me know what you guys think.
Let me take a shot at defusing a few things. This is what I propose. Since I am in a position to do so, I will annex Venice. Pope can then take Venice from me(as long as he gets a fleet. To placate the obvious nervousness this will cause OE, OE can then immediately take Cyprus(Venetian possesion) off of my hands. I hope this can placate everyone. The lack of a CoT for me has reached the point where I was almost going to annex Venice anyway. I would like to hear from OE as well as France. Russia, I am sure the thought of me taking most Italian lands if Hyzhen moves doesnt appeal to you either. Let me know what you guys think.
I am and have always been in favor of helping the Pope unify Italy (please don't hit me with any of that "why should the ottomans/muslims care" crap) because, after my experience with Persia, I can understand perfectly the feeling of being weak and boxed in - though Persia was even worse due to the tech handicap. Really, I would have taken Brandenburg off the bat if I had realized what the muslim tech penalty would mean in the context of a serious MP game with competent human players. If people want to see more conflict and tension, allowing Italy to develop into a major regional power is the way to do this.
It may seem a bit unfair to ask people to give up provinces (even in the case of very rich nations and relatively poor provinces... see Spain/Sicily), but we're not in a serious cutthroat ladder game here, if some huge empires have to give up 1 or 2 provinces so hyz can have a reasonably entertaining game then so be it.
Specifically I don't think it's unreasonable to see Sicily and Sardinia given to the Pope, and the vassalizations/alliances with Genoa and Venice cancelled.
Edit: CC, that sounds good, as long as you let me grab as many of Venice's islands as I can
It may seem a bit unfair to ask people to give up provinces (even in the case of very rich nations and relatively poor provinces... see Spain/Sicily), but we're not in a serious cutthroat ladder game here, if some huge empires have to give up 1 or 2 provinces so hyz can have a reasonably entertaining game then so be it.
Specifically I don't think it's unreasonable to see Sicily and Sardinia given to the Pope, and the vassalizations/alliances with Genoa and Venice cancelled.
Edit: CC, that sounds good, as long as you let me grab as many of Venice's islands as I can
Portugal would be more then willing to aid the Pope financialy. The kings of Portugal have been bad, bad boys and i believe that being on good terms with His Holiness would speak in their favour when standing in front of the Gates of Heaven.
Hyz, if you remain The Papal States would you be able to colonise Louga and Senegal on your own?
Louga is a level 2 colony, Senegal a tradepost. Or the other way around.o
I could also throw in Maroni and the province next to if if i could only remember the name. These could also be handed over next session, after i have colonised them, i believe that at this point both are trading posts.
Having a human Pope does add a certain flair to the game.
Wow. This must be my longest post in the discusion thread.
Hyz, if you remain The Papal States would you be able to colonise Louga and Senegal on your own?
Louga is a level 2 colony, Senegal a tradepost. Or the other way around.
o I could also throw in Maroni and the province next to if if i could only remember the name. These could also be handed over next session, after i have colonised them, i believe that at this point both are trading posts.
Having a human Pope does add a certain flair to the game.
Wow. This must be my longest post in the discusion thread.
Spec,
If I am not mistaken, Venice only has Crete and Cyprus. The Ionian islands I think Genoa grabbed those. Corfu is already in your hands. So that means I would only get Crete, you get Cyprus, and the Pope gets Venice. That way all the powers around get something they want. France gets to see Venice in Pope's hands and not mine. Poland the same. Oe sees me lose a potential ally. I get lands where I can base the mighty Austrian Navy. Habs, I would like to hear your take on this as well. It seems you were a little upset and I would like to know your thoughts. PP, i think you can just put this down as a little Catholic generosity to their leader.
If I am not mistaken, Venice only has Crete and Cyprus. The Ionian islands I think Genoa grabbed those. Corfu is already in your hands. So that means I would only get Crete, you get Cyprus, and the Pope gets Venice. That way all the powers around get something they want. France gets to see Venice in Pope's hands and not mine. Poland the same. Oe sees me lose a potential ally. I get lands where I can base the mighty Austrian Navy. Habs, I would like to hear your take on this as well. It seems you were a little upset and I would like to know your thoughts. PP, i think you can just put this down as a little Catholic generosity to their leader.