New European Provinces Wishlist

[Samman666]

Still, it'd be nice to have these historically important cities in the game, to give players a feeling of context. It'd also be cool if Syracuse was added and Venice and Genoa were given a mission to take it from Naples, modeling the two factions fighting for influence over the port.

 

[wergy]

I am not demanding a buff for my home country (Norway). I do quite the opposite. However, this thread is quite interesting to me as a (primarily map) modder to see what provinces people think are the most important.

I never said it was about you mate

I think it happens too because I know better the History of my country than the History of other nations.

If you would know your history so well, then you should know precisely the abilities and the possibilities of your country, and its place in Europe You're suggesting to make it potentially stronger than Castille, England or Prussia due having more provinces. How is it historical?

 

[exin]

I don't think that many people want buffs. Everyone just wants Nice Borders (tm).

Aye people want nice borders and when they go to war, their conquest to leave nice borders after the war too.

But to be honest if we could request anything that Paradox will really do, I'd ask for a better world map, with accurate mountains, rivers and terrain. I still cringe at the CK2 Danube, Carpathians, France and England =/

 

[uishax]

The issues in East Europe are minuscule compared to the extreme distortions in China and India. Chinese provinces in 1.7 often had more population than entire countries in Europe, but with much less tax. AOW was right to prioritize those areas.

 

[Therion]

This is true. But Kleef (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duchy_of_Cleves) has been part of the Netherlands at various occassions and Dutch remained the official administrative language deep into the 19th century. Its dialect is called Kleverlands (http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kleverlands, no English link, sorry) and is still counted as a Dutch dialect, not a German one.

(Eventually Dutch was forbidden by the nazi's in 1936 and this is was how it was stamped out. As a native speaker of Dutch, I'm able to still see which towns have a Dutch heritage as opposed to German by their official names.)

As for Cologne ... yeah, that's where things become really, really fuzzy. But as that area was never Dutch in any official capacity as far as I know, and it could go either way, I'm not making the case for that. (Even though King Willem 1 was offered the Lower Rhine, which he declined, heh.)

Then again Dutch itself would be considered like any other 'German' dialect if it weren't for the formation of the Dutch state. If we stick to language, most of Gelderland, Overijssel and Groningen (Gelre and Friesland in game) would have to be German (Low Saxon) which in game translates to Hanoverian*! This is the trouble with dividing cultures in terms of modern national boundaries.

* This is the first thing that needs changing. It's totally odd seeing it as a culture considered that this name emerges in the 18th century as a colloquial name for the Duchy of Brunswick-Lüneburg.

 

[jrgen3]

The issues in East Europe are minuscule compared to the extreme distortions in China and India. Chinese provinces in 1.7 often had more population than entire countries in Europe, but with much less tax. AOW was right to prioritize those areas.

Of course, but that's not what we are discussing here. I am 100% supporting new provinces in Africa, Persia, Arabia, Anatolia, India, China, South East Asia and Mexico. I do not support more provinces in the rest of the Americas, Siberia, Sweden, Norway, Australia, New Zealand and Finland. The number of provinces in NA, Siberia, Australia and New Zealand is already too high and should be lowered.

 

[mudcrabmerchant]

The OP... just, no. Half of the provinces you suggest, at the very least, are just superfluous - what does the game gain by adding in the Isle of Man? And what justification is there for adding a province to the Netherlands or Germany, regions with the highest density of provinces in the game, instead of adding a province to India or Indonesia, which, even with the overhaul, are still much less detailed?

Just because it'd be cool doesn't mean it's good for game balance or gameplay, or that the gains to either outweigh the performance hit from adding the new province. Even after optimization, this isn't a non-issue, and although just adding the Isle of Man wouldn't be a problem, if we start adding new provinces all over Europe that have as much justification as the Isle of Man... then you could get a problem.

A few areas, especially regions east of the HRE, could use more provinces, and more accurate borders. And I could perhaps see the justification behind adding new province to Western Europe, if these are going only to new tags... but really, the suggestions in the OP aren't very good.

 

[jrgen3]

The OP... just, no. Half of the provinces you suggest, at the very least, are just superfluous - what does the game gain by adding in the Isle of Man? And what justification is there for adding a province to the Netherlands or Germany, regions with the highest density of provinces in the game, instead of adding a province to India or Indonesia, which, even with the overhaul, are still much less detailed?

Even though the rest of the world still does not have the same province density as Europe, Europe will be the most inaccurate part of the world after the patch. I just can't believe how they get away with leaving Venice and Prussia like it is now. Even without adding provinces, Europe could be hugely improved. EDIT: If you look at the trailer, you can see that Ostpreussen has been split in 2. This is quite unnecessary, because it does not fix what is wrong with it in the first place. It is just adding provinces for adding them, which should be avoided.

Just because it'd be cool doesn't mean it's good for game balance or gameplay, or that the gains to either outweigh the performance hit from adding the new province. Even after optimization, this isn't a non-issue, and although just adding the Isle of Man wouldn't be a problem, if we start adding new provinces all over Europe that have as much justification as the Isle of Man... then you could get a problem.

I have been modding the map for quite some time now and adding more provinces is definitely not the worst thing for performance. Tags and tradenodes affect performance a lot more. Adding 100 provinces has next to no effect on performance. For VeF, I reduced the number of provinces in the US and Canada by around 45. The performance increase was not measurable. Removing another 90 provinces from other places did not affect performance either. It ended up being slower because of new events and mechanics being added. More provinces does not really affect performance as much. The worst offenders are trade nodes, active tags, poorly optimised province events (vanilla events) and poorly optimised country events (again, vanilla).

A few areas, especially regions east of the HRE, could use more provinces, and more accurate borders. And I could perhaps see the justification behind adding new province to Western Europe, if these are going only to new tags... but really, the suggestions in the OP aren't very good.

All of Europe needs more accurate borders. And you are right, not all suggestions in the OP are good. Giving more provinces to Norway or Sweden for example. And I don't even know what he talking about when he mentions splitting Ösel.

 

[Mister X]

Then again Dutch itself would be considered like any other 'German' dialect if it weren't for the formation of the Dutch state. If we stick to language, most of Gelderland, Overijssel and Groningen (Gelre and Friesland in game) would have to be German (Low Saxon) which in game translates to Hanoverian*! This is the trouble with dividing cultures in terms of modern national boundaries.

* This is the first thing that needs changing. It's totally odd seeing it as a culture considered that this name emerges in the 18th century as a colloquial name for the Duchy of Brunswick-Lüneburg.

Well, they are CULTURES, not LANGUAGES, those two are different, that's the reason why romanian and albanian is in south slavic and that slovene doesn't exist

 

[petertel123]

I never said it was about you mate


If you would know your history so well, then you should know precisely the abilities and the possibilities of your country, and its place in Europe You're suggesting to make it potentially stronger than Castille, England or Prussia due having more provinces. How is it historical?

well that kind of depends on basetax, if you split a province and give both the new provinces half the basetax it isn't a buff

 

[jrgen3]

well that kind of depends on basetax, if you split a province and give both the new provinces half the basetax it isn't a buff

It technically is when you start building buildings there. Two base 5 provinces is better in the long run than 1 province with base tax 10.

 

[Willem IV]

But it's impossible to model the cultures right in a 400 year period. For example Flemish and Dutch;
There was no major difference and clear border between those two in early gameperiod, just minor differences between all the regions. However after the reformation and 80 years war, the two parts were split. The southern part became catholic and turned and got influenced by the south-european nation (France, Austria & Spain) while the north remained protesant and got more influence from the north european countries (Prussia & England). This explains the split between flemish and dutch. But no way to model this in the game!

 

[Therion]

Well, they are CULTURES, not LANGUAGES, those two are different, that's the reason why romanian and albanian is in south slavic and that slovene doesn't exist

Well, in this case cultural differences were even less prominent.

Before the creation of the Dutch and German nations Imperial princes had no trouble ruling populations which would nowadays be characterized as belonging to different sides of the Dutch-German border cf. Guelders, Jülich-Cleves-Berg, Bavaria-Straubing, etc.

The modern Low Countries coincide exactly with the areas that were annexed by Burgundy and the Habsburgs that were later organized as a distinct entity by Charles V so the split is ultimately down to politics not culture. Had the Habsburgs annexed Cologne instead of Utrecht, ceteris paribus, the former would nowadays be considered Dutch and the latter German. That is how artificial these things are.

 

[Ruwaard]

@ Willem IV: I wouldn't say northern Dutch and Flemish really, then again North Brabant is right in the middle. What you mention did hinder those two 'branches' of the same culture to move closer together.
So perhaps one could split Dutch in two subgroups Netherlandic and Flemish.

@ Therion: not really, there is a three way split of the dialect continuum , High German, Low German and Dutch, however the exact borders aren't really there. Linguistically there are a number of grey areas between the three, not to mention that political border =/= linguistic border.

 

[Therion]

@ Therion: not really, there is a three way split of the dialect continuum , High German, Low German and Dutch, however the exact borders aren't really there. Linguistically there are a number of grey areas between the three, not to mention that political border =/= linguistic border.

Not exactly. That is just a convenient way to split Germanic by arbitrarily placing the focus on historically prestigious languages (Dutch, High German and Low German). For instance, if you so wanted, you could even speak of a 'Rhinelandic' dialect continuum comprising Dutch, Limburgish, Ripuarian and Franconian. Such a dialect continuum would encompass dialects from two distinct dialect continua of the 'convenient' model.

 

[JPGM22]

I never said it was about you mate


If you would know your history so well, then you should know precisely the abilities and the possibilities of your country, and its place in Europe You're suggesting to make it potentially stronger than Castille, England or Prussia due having more provinces. How is it historical?

Of course you don't will add more provinces to portugal without doing the same with castile, aragon, england, italy... Those provinces should be poor with low taxe base (e.g. If lisbon have 10 BT in vanilla, adding Leiria and Setubal it should be Lisboa (7 BT) Leiria (2 BT) Setubal (3 BT) because you will take off BT from Alentejo and Coimbra too)

 

[JPGM22]

I agree with, If you change a country you need to change other all countries! To keep the balance of strenght.

 

[unmerged(145182)]

I don't know.
In France, add a province (maybe Bresse) between Savoy and Lyonnais to match more the conflict of interest between Savoy and France in that region. Also split Savoy between Savoy proper and Genevois? Split the big rich province into smaller poorer provinces in France, (Velay, Forez) split Languedoc and Provence in more real "pays" as it was.

Outside Europe, are there now some small provinces on Chinese or India coast like Hong-Kong or Macau, Pondichery, Chandernagor for the European possession rather than a full province? Mmkay I'm leaving.

 

[uishax]

I don't know.
In France, add a province (maybe Bresse) between Savoy and Lyonnais to match more the conflict of interest between Savoy and France in that region. Also split Savoy between Savoy proper and Genevois? Split the big rich province into smaller poorer provinces in France, (Velay, Forez) split Languedoc and Provence in more real "pays" as it was.

Outside Europe, are there now some small provinces on Chinese or India coast like Hong-Kong or Macau, Pondichery, Chandernagor for the European possession rather than a full province? Mmkay I'm leaving.

Macau already there, Singapore added, don't know about Hong Kong though, and its very strange why the much smaller macau exists but hong kong doesn't.

 

[CzechKronner]

Bohemia should have more provinces. At the very least, Olomouc should be added.