New Crisis Ideas

[Objulen]

I'm not sure how engaging a hyperkane shuffle would be - especially at a point in the game where players can build Gateways with jump-capable construction ships - but non-combat Crisis that has to be solved with technology, diplomacy, and the like would be great.

The disease example is a good category.

1) Timer - pops slowly die as the plague degrades internal organs and circuitry. Every planet gets a Purge modifier. This modifier generates events, as the empire has to deal with leaders dying off and society breaking down.

2) A cure must be researched, with a high cost in engineering/society, depending on empire. Empires who sign Research Pacts gain a bonus.

3) Various pop up that grant bonuses to researching the plague that science ships investigate.

Or - Doomsday Device

1) An artifact of doom left by an ancient civilization has broadcast a message that it will destroy the galaxy. Destructive pulses cause Devistation to slowly increase on all planets, killing pops. Events must be managed.

2) Ruins must be scoured for the location and nature of the artifact. Precursors can be convinced to help, or conquered. The Curators can give clues.

3) Empires can share findings - or horde them for themselves.

4) Empires that uncover the nature of the artifact can deactivate it - or just protect themselves from its effects, for a huge diplomacy malus.

 

[Mr. Morague]

I think we should try to reimagine how the current crisises work rather than implement entirely new ones, at least until the current crisises actually work most of the time. Let me try for the Prethoryn using BlackUmbrella’s model;

-It is still triggered mostly by a random chance and isn’t affected much by player actions.

-The easiest way to defeat the crisis is via destroying its units and using research/projects/events to scare them off. The second easiest way would be similar, except that you try to modify the Prethoryn into being less hostile towards you and their allies rather than scaring them off. The least easiest way is to try and assimilate part of the Prethoryn into your empire and make everyone not like you a whole lot.

-The Prethoryn still get reinforcements for each Infested Planet, however they have two other ways to gain forces as well; Each ship they defeat in combat has a chance of being Infested and becoming a Prethoryn unit, and they have a low chance of turning a random (preferably) less populated planet into an Infested Planet each decade.

-The Prethoryn don’t occupy territory as they do now. They still Infest planets, and they can still occupy planets, and they may even occasionally make starbases, but they no longer claim systems.

-The Prethoryn’s arrival Is precluded by the arrival of strange gases in the galaxy that massively reduce the effectiveness of sensors and somewhat reduces accuracy. This effect starts off weak, but gets stronger up to the arrival. Once the Prethoryn are defeated, the gas will slowly dissipate until there is no more.

-As stated before, when the Crisis is defeated the gas affecting the galaxy dissipates over time. The Prethoryn will no longer randomly Infest planets as well. These both signify that the main Prethoryn force has decided your galaxy won’t be able to sustain them in time and has headed off for another galaxy. The remaining Prethoryn act like the Feral Prethoryn do now unless they’ve been assimilated or “tamed”.

 

[BlackUmbrellas]

I think we should try to reimagine how the current crisises work rather than implement entirely new ones, at least until the current crisises actually work most of the time. Let me try for the Prethoryn using BlackUmbrella’s model;

-It is still triggered mostly by a random chance and isn’t affected much by player actions.

-The easiest way to defeat the crisis is via destroying its units and using research/projects/events to scare them off. The second easiest way would be similar, except that you try to modify the Prethoryn into being less hostile towards you and their allies rather than scaring them off. The least easiest way is to try and assimilate part of the Prethoryn into your empire and make everyone not like you a whole lot.

-The Prethoryn still get reinforcements for each Infested Planet, however they have two other ways to gain forces as well; Each ship they defeat in combat has a chance of being Infested and becoming a Prethoryn unit, and they have a low chance of turning a random (preferably) less populated planet into an Infested Planet each decade.

-The Prethoryn don’t occupy territory as they do now. They still Infest planets, and they can still occupy planets, and they may even occasionally make starbases, but they no longer claim systems.

-The Prethoryn’s arrival Is precluded by the arrival of strange gases in the galaxy that massively reduce the effectiveness of sensors and somewhat reduces accuracy. This effect starts off weak, but gets stronger up to the arrival. Once the Prethoryn are defeated, the gas will slowly dissipate until there is no more.

-As stated before, when the Crisis is defeated the gas affecting the galaxy dissipates over time. The Prethoryn will no longer randomly Infest planets as well. These both signify that the main Prethoryn force has decided your galaxy won’t be able to sustain them in time and has headed off for another galaxy. The remaining Prethoryn act like the Feral Prethoryn do now unless they’ve been assimilated or “tamed”.

I don't see what the point is of "reimagining" the current ones. Like... why make those changes to the prethoryn? What's the benefit? Is it just your personal taste?

I just wish they worked more reliably (which mostly comes down to problems with hyperlanes, pathing, and purge mechanics).

 

[Jin_Cardassian]

This is a false equivalency, because you do actually have to keep monitoring the situation and adjusting things as they go. You can go "Oh wait, shit, I have to move them elsewhere!" or "Oh shit, I need more ships there than what I have!" and also "Oh shit, I didn't have enough ships now they're all DEAD!"

As opposed to "Research Cure for Interdimensional Plague" or whatever.

You seem to have this image of just parking a scientist over a planet and waiting. It doesn't have to be like that.

Think of it more like an archaeological dig paired with a quest chain. The idea is that each project gives you some kind of partial benefit, by countering a crisis advantage. It terminates at a choice of what kind of advantage to pursue next (maybe three options), and a choice of approach.

As for approaches, you'd have three ways to proceed: fast, cheap, or safe. If you have the right prereqs, you might be able to pick two. An unsafe approach runs the risk of catastrophic failure that damages a planet, a region of space, or the empire as a whole, akin to "losing a fleet in battle".

At some points you may have to stop and fetch an artifact or a sample before you can complete a project, or convince other empires to give you stuff or let you do shit in their territory. You can use diplomacy to achieve this, either directly or through the Galactic Community. Or it could be a war goal.

If somebody completes a project before you do, you can use diplomacy to force them to give it to you. Or steal it with espionage. Or war for it. Or trade for it if you have a stellar economy.

We could even make this more dynamic by having the crisis generate new advantages over time, if they are not advancing in the galaxy (eg Prethoryn genestealer cults). This opens up another series of projects to counter it.

 

[Methone]

You seem to have this image of just parking a scientist over a planet and waiting. It doesn't have to be like that.

Think of it more like an archaeological dig paired with a quest chain. The idea is that each project gives you some kind of partial benefit, by countering a crisis advantage. It terminates at a choice of what kind of advantage to pursue next (maybe three options), and a choice of approach.

As for approaches, you'd have three ways to proceed: fast, cheap, or safe. If you have the right prereqs, you might be able to pick two. An unsafe approach runs the risk of catastrophic failure that damages a planet, a region of space, or the empire as a whole, akin to "losing a fleet in battle".

At some points you may have to stop and fetch an artifact or a sample before you can complete a project, or convince other empires to give you stuff or let you do shit in their territory. You can use diplomacy to achieve this, either directly or through the Galactic Community. Or it could be a war goal.

If somebody completes a project before you do, you can use diplomacy to force them to give it to you. Or steal it with espionage. Or war for it. Or trade for it if you have a stellar economy.

We could even make this more dynamic by having the crisis generate new advantages over time, if they are not advancing in the galaxy (eg Prethoryn genestealer cults). This opens up another series of projects to counter it.

Hmm, true, I hadn't considered the archaeology system. But they'd have to be some projects.

 

[Duuk]

Personally, I love the idea of non-military crises. Bring on internal revolts, political crises, pandemics. Make "End Game Crises" not always happen or sometimes have them happen with limited starting strength but possible to trigger multiple (Contingency AND Unbidden!)

Right now it's just... paint the map until everything is conquered or beyond the point of no return then face an overpowering foe that is a "Mongol Horde from CK Challenge and not even original" and then "A WINNER IS YOU".

It's not a challenge if you know it's there and that you have to be prepared for it. What if you spent 2 centuries preparing for a military crises and... your worlds started falling apart from an internal disaster? Suddenly your naval capacity drops through the floor because you don't have any pops... your economy is collapsing because you were all ready for the Contingency and instead your neighbor triggered the Renewed Jovian SuperPox... and now the Determined Exterminators and fanatic purifiers are looking like the only SANE empires because they won't let anyone in.

 

[Jin_Cardassian]

Hmm, true, I hadn't considered the archaeology system. But they'd have to be some projects.

Crises could actually take on a "fractal" nature with this approach, using failed projects to generate new complications, which would need new solutions.

The Prethoryn were bad enough, but now you have a breakaway sect of prethoryn hybrid children that see themselves as the ultimate superior race, destined to rule the galaxy. Maybe they stage a coup, offering to protect their lessers from the Prethoryn if they are allowed to rule. Or maybe they form a bridge between you and the Prethoryn.

So you go to the Galactic Community with a plan to ally the Prethoryn if all the galaxy stands together with them against the Hunters!

 

[Methone]

So you go to the Galactic Community with a plan to ally the Prethoryn if all the galaxy stands together with them against the Hunters!

Eh, I like the general idea but not with the Prethoryn. Like, consider that the Prethoryn's shattered, weakened refugees are meant to be a dire threat to an entire galaxy full of people with the sort of tech that builds dyson spheres. From there, it's not a stretch that, at full power, the Prethoryn were a proper intergalactic empire, as far above us as we are above planetbound primitives.

And then consider that the Hunters defeated THAT, apparently without much difficulty.

Why would the Prethoryn's assault armies, landed on our homeworld, be convinced that working together with our defense armies would let them fend off a Colossus's world cracker?

 

[Jin_Cardassian]

Eh, I like the general idea but not with the Prethoryn. Like, consider that the Prethoryn's shattered, weakened refugees are meant to be a dire threat to an entire galaxy full of people with the sort of tech that builds dyson spheres. From there, it's not a stretch that, at full power, the Prethoryn were a proper intergalactic empire, as far above us as we are above planetbound primitives.

And then consider that the Hunters defeated THAT, apparently without much difficulty.

Why would the Prethoryn's assault armies, landed on our homeworld, be convinced that working together with our defense armies would let them fend off a Colossus's world cracker?

Fair enough. My intention was to argue for the general idea, so I'm not wedded to the possibility of a Prethoryn alliance.

One potential justification is that the Prethoryn's hive mind prevents them from thinking in certain ways. So individualistic species (or different kinds of gestalts) can make certain intuitive leaps they can't.

The hybrid kids know this because they have a unique mind state with elements of both, and they also have genetic memory of the Hunters. So they (and you) can actually develop counter-measures ahead of the Hunter's invasion. Counter-measures that the Prethoryn alone couldn't. If you can prove it to them, then you have the basis of an alliance.

Of course, you might still have the possibility of a betrayal.

 

[Methone]

The hybrid kids know this because they have a unique mind state with elements of both, and they also have genetic memory of the Hunters. So they (and you) can actually develop counter-measures ahead of the Hunter's invasion. Counter-measures that the Prethoryn alone couldn't. If you can prove it to them, then you have the basis of an alliance.

Eh. It just feels like having us be able to do anything at all to the Hunters would devalue the buildup they've gotten. I mean, they turned a galaxy off like a lightbulb. That's not something even the End of the Cycle can come close to.

 

[Jin_Cardassian]

Eh. It just feels like having us be able to do anything at all to the Hunters would devalue the buildup they've gotten. I mean, they turned a galaxy off like a lightbulb. That's not something even the End of the Cycle can come close to.

Well, okay, no Prethoryn alliance then. But if you want my hybrid kids, you can take em from my cold, dead hands.

The main point is that fleshing out the existing crises with diplomatic, economic, political, and scientific dimensions is a good idea. Not only does it make them more interesting, and offer greater choice in how to overcome them, it also provides a test case for any future crises that lean more heavily toward those other dimensions, like plagues or illuminati coups.

What you don't want to do is separate things into "100% war crises" and "100% diplomatic crises", you just have "crises" and it's up to the player to invent a solution with whatever tools their empire has at its disposal.

 

[Methone]

Well, okay, no Prethoryn alliance then. But if you want my hybrid kids, you can take em from my cold, dead hands.

The main point is that fleshing out the existing crises with diplomatic, economic, political, and scientific dimensions is a good idea. Not only does it make them more interesting, and offer greater choice in how to overcome them, it also provides a test case for any future crises that lean more heavily toward those other dimensions, like plagues or illuminati coups.

What you don't want to do is separate things into "100% war crises" and "100% diplomatic crises", you just have "crises" and it's up to the player to invent a solution with whatever tools their empire has at its disposal.

I don't know, why not? You're not exactly going to 'diplomacy' your way around a Devouring Swarm, why should the endgame crisis be more amenable to diplomacy than a standard empire?

 

[Jin_Cardassian]

I don't know, why not? You're not exactly going to 'diplomacy' your way around a Devouring Swarm, why should the endgame crisis be more amenable to diplomacy than a standard empire?

Using diplomacy to obtain allies to fight them is still a diplomatic solution, even if it's secondary to war. At least it means you can pursue a strategy besides maxxing out your own alloy production, which is all anyone currently does in this game.

Beyond that, there could be scientific projects to develop bio-weapons or synapse decohering beacons or whatever, and diplomacy would come into play to get other empires to assist these projects, just as they can assist in war. Engineering a phony brood queen to spoof signals into the hive and tame it might not seem like a diplomatic option, but it is.

As to the Prethoryn, whose to say there shouldn't be a diplomatic option with them too? Hive Minds and Psionic empires already have a way to talk to them. They just . . . can't really do anything with it. It gives them a couple story clues that don't change anything.

Consider that the Prethoryn's goal is to escape the Hunters. Eating a galaxy and moving on is a means to that end. If you can provide them with an better option, they might listen.

 

[Methone]

Consider that the Prethoryn's goal is to escape the Hunters. Eating a galaxy and moving on is a means to that end. If you can provide them with an better option, they might listen.

Here's the thing, though: What better option?

 

[BlackUmbrellas]

I don't know, why not? You're not exactly going to 'diplomacy' your way around a Devouring Swarm, why should the endgame crisis be more amenable to diplomacy than a standard empire?

The only "diplomatic" element to the existing endgame Crisis events should be hooks that tie into the Galactic Community and create a deeper sense of the existing galactic powers wheeling and dealing to try to respond to the crisis- either pointedly ignoring it so that it'll harm their enemies, or noticeably cooperating and forming new initiatives to try to combat it.

 

[Jin_Cardassian]

Here's the thing, though: What better option?

• Create a pocket dimension for them to live in, then seal it so the Hunters will never find it.
• Create a one-use wormhole to a galaxy so far away that it will take 8 billion years for the Hunters to get to it.
• Weaponize the galactic core to send some kind of sterilizing gamma ray blast in the Hunters' direction.
• Cloak the entire galaxy so the Hunters will never find it, and the Prethoryn can live in what territory they already have. Still a threat, but not an inherent galaxy-ending one.
• Some time travel bullshit? I don't know.

Bottom line, this is a gameplay thing. It gets real dull to have a band of 3D4 Klingons pop out every five minutes and have no other option than to kill them. It's a better game if you can fight them or use your knowledge of Klingon customs to challenge one to a blood wine drinking contest and shame the band into backing down.

More meaningful choices, with different costs and tradeoffs, make for a better experience. One-dimensional problems leads to one-dimensional empire builds leads to one-dimensional gaming.

Roleplay wise, some people seem to think it would be inappropriate or anti-climatic to defeat a crises without a titanic fleet battle. As one user pointed out, this is exactly the way that many crises are averted in the fiction that informs Stellaris. The Federation didn't defeat the Borg with a titanic ship battle. They lost the fleet battle, then the Enterprise crew beat them with hacking.

 

[Methone]

Create a pocket dimension for them to live in, then seal it so the Hunters will never find it.

YOU PRIMITIVES THINK YOU STAND A CHANCE OF HIDING FROM THE HUNTERS?

Create a one-use wormhole to a galaxy so far away that it will take 8 billion years for the Hunters to get to it.

YOU CANNOT EVEN LEAVE YOUR OWN GALAXY, LET ALONE TO ONE SO FAR!

Weaponize the galactic core to send some kind of sterilizing gamma ray blast in the Hunters' direction.

AND YOU THINK THE HUNTERS' DEFENSES WOULD EVEN NOTICE YOUR ATTEMPTS AT HARMING THEM?

Cloak the entire galaxy so the Hunters will never find it, and the Prethoryn can live in what territory they already have. Still a threat, but not an inherent galaxy-ending one.

ONCE AGAIN, YOU THINK YOU CAN HIDE FROM THEM?

Some time travel bullshit? I don't know.

ANYTHING YOU CAN DO, SO CAN THEY. THE PAST IS NO MORE REFUGE THAN ANYWHERE ELSE!

Bottom line, this is a gameplay thing. It gets real dull to have a band of 3D4 Klingons pop out every five minutes and have no other option than to kill them. It's a better game if you can fight them or use your knowledge of Klingon customs to challenge one to a blood wine drinking contest and shame the band into backing down.

I precisely disagree. The boring thing would be if you can challenge EVERY enemy to a blood wine drinking contest and always having that as a fallback, of "Well the Gray Tempest is currently rampaging through my systems with several 35k fleets to my one 5k, but it's okay! I can haxorz it if all goes wrong! No need to worry, those giant fleets don't actually matter." In a game where diplomacy is (advertised as...) a main way to handle empires in addition to war, sometimes you need the hard bite of "Kill or Be Killed".

 

[Jin_Cardassian]

The boring thing would be if you can challenge EVERY enemy to a blood wine drinking contest and always having that as a fallback, of "Well the Gray Tempest is currently rampaging through my systems with several 35k fleets to my one 5k, but it's okay! I can haxorz it if all goes wrong! No need to worry, those giant fleets don't actually matter." In a game where diplomacy is (advertised as...) a main way to handle empires in addition to war, sometimes you need the hard bite of "Kill or Be Killed".

To actually pull that off requires an investment of resources, just like a building up your fleets. It builds on a whole bunch of earlier choices to focus on science capacity, at the expense of fleets. And it incurs risks, just like the risk of losing your fleets or being stabbed in the back while they are out of position.

You think it's gimmicky that a weak empire could just push the right button and win, but here's the thing: That empire isn't weak. They're just strong in a different way. Those Fanatic Militarists over there? They could never have pulled it off.

And that victory also probably came at the expense of a lot of proverbial fleet losses along the way. Who knows how many scientists went insane trying to decipher the mystery? How many labs they blew up? How many planets they lost to escaped samples? How many pops were horribly deformed by experiments?

 

[Methone]

To actually pull that off requires an investment of resources, just like a building up your fleets.

I don't know. Going by your example of the blood wine, it seems like there's a teensy bit of a difference in the effort required to beat the Klingons militarily vs the effort required to read a book and go "Oh, we can just tell them we'll drink them under the table!"

 

[Jin_Cardassian]

I don't know. Going by your example of the blood wine, it seems like there's a teensy bit of a difference in the effort required to beat the Klingons militarily vs the effort required to read a book and go "Oh, we can just tell them we'll drink them under the table!"

Can you say the challenge in Klingon? With the right inflection? The right measure of humility and courage? Can you quote the relevant thing Kahless the Unforgettable said? Do you know what angle to hold your weapon at when saying it? DO YOU EVEN HAVE THE STOMACH FOR BLOOD WINE?!

Social challenges have varying difficulty, just like martial challenges. Reading a book is good enough for some. For others, you better have a PhD in Xeno-anthropology.