Honestly I'm fine with this because as someone else mentioned above, it's going to save a tonne of no-brainer clicks that would otherwise be necesssary for optimal gameplay.
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New Concentrate Dev is now Mostly Useless
- Thread starter lambda x.x
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Doesn't lower development, just adds devastation + wartime effects.
I don't see how concentrate being blocked when it isn't helpful makes sense. A warning when mousing over it is a good idea, blocking it is arbitrary and punitive. Though this could be a bug too.
There are also examples of Pdox removing something you can do in the game, then putting it back in as DLC content on a different form. Vassal feeding, distant war CBs, spending monarch points to improve provinces are a few cases.
I don't think this piece of the change can be justified with "realism". You could say that about nerfing the size of capital from doing it, but not about blocking the use of the button like in OP's example.
Basically, if we accept that you can damage/plunder a state *at all*, it can't be consistent to then claim that the ability to damage a region disappears just because the benefit of doing so decreases. At least, not with "realism" as the reason. Realism dictates that either you can do it or you can't.
I don't like no-brainer clicks either, but this is bad process. Also, UI could be vastly improved for concentrate development. For example: macrobuilder --> concentrate --> states that are eligible are highlighted. Grant province could use this treatment too, of course.
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I would be much cooler if concentrate development would be possible in every area and would then be transfering development on a ~90% ratio abroad towards your capital area, so this way you have a nice fade of development levels.
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Horse Manure.
Provinces and development have been increasing but it's probably as easy / easier than ever to conquer the world. At least that's my experience.
You would typically lose dev but typically this would be in wrong culture and/or religion land, to the benefit of your capital which you should obviously have right culture and religion.
The button was mostly a no-brainer. Another tonne of clicks every game.
On my main run in 1.31 I ended with a capital of 3000+ development. Totally absurd and immersion breaking. As well as being very ugly on the map.
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Realism is one thing, changing the meaning of a number when the rest around doesn't is another. Without concentrate development, you simply do not have provinces above 70 Dev, rarely do they even hit 50. These are already big enough that the cost for coring is capped as if the province was 30, but the rest doesn't follow. Worth a good third of a country's warscore even before you add the fact it is a capital, overextention exploding, making move capital fantastically costly, breaking Governing capacity and indirectly Religious unity while bypassing culture, for Asian countries breaking trade way sooner via a larger pool of money for Trade Steering modifier, devving for institution... I probably forget more interactions that suffer from multiplying by 10 the expected dev in your capital by end game. It was breaking the intent of the game more than the game itself
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The issue brought up in the OP is not that you can't make 300-3000 development capitals anymore. It's that the game does not let you use concentrate development to lower the development of captured provinces for what appears to be an objectively arbitrary reason.
My bad, was in response to Reman's comment
Meanwhile, as long as you put a local price using a global currency, the Mana system as a whole won't work, concentrate was only transforming "local" global currency into another "local" global currency, regardless of the exchange rate. Kinda like buying a pic from a Deviantart artist for 50$ and then selling it back as NTF for 5000$. Make Mana only useful for global matters such as tech and idea, and not local such as dev, coring or buildings, and you'll see that there won't be as much of an inflation problem, nor will you have to correct course constantly to try to maintain the value of everything locally, instead of having to remove creative ways to ease the burden on your global curency
Seems like it would be preferable to either have the ability to designate what province gets the dev (e.g. on cooldown like if you were moving your capital or trading capital) or to spread it to random province(s) of the same religion and culture as your capital, rather than just disable the button from being clicked after a certain point... granted, taken to the extreme you'd eventually end up at the same point in theory but in practice that seems like a stretch unless you concentrate nearly all the dev in the world while also developing provinces yourself.
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You're not wrong, but concentrate has a lot of benefits beyond monarch point saving, if your goal is world conquest. Specifically, lowering development also lowers things like unrest and overextension. Since one of the (typical) gates on expansion rate is how much OE you can tank before 0 separatism provinces start blowing up, the ability to concentrate substantially increases the amount of land you can take per war without having to dump it in subjects or manage a much higher rebel threshold. And even when you choose to dump on subjects, they are smaller/faster to annex and have an easier time managing the OE themselves.
Before absolutism the monarch point cost reduction is a large factor in its own right too though.
I've seen Lambda (OP) push past that rebel break point and tank the ridiculous quantities of rebellions, but that's only necessary when going for world record one-tag times and such, not for 1700's one-tags or regular WC.
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Because your Overextension limit is a global currency that does not depends on your amassed power, only from Admin efficiency. The amount of cumulative OE you will accrue in a game increases with total dev in the world, but your ability to endure it does not scale at all. There's a LOT of places where it happens in EU4 actually.
For instance 5% Discipline has the same worth for your Military score as an OPM and as Ming, and doesn't take into account the fact that it is what s typically called in military jargon a force multiplier. Number of soldiers, however, scales with your score. So if you play competitive Score lead, more soldiers > more discipline, even if you lose all your wars. And it also is weighted completely differently for calculations like Military strength for peace deal or desire to stay in a coalition / declare war for the AI
Professionalism increases depending of your number of drilling soldiers in a scaled way. General hiring doesn't, but that makes sense, you spend a global currency that doesn't scale. Hiring mercenaries however, doesn't scale with company size, and their local impact is thus not taken into consideration
Mandate gain from Stability is stable whatever the size of your country, because Stability is global. Gain from tributaries depends on their size. Prosperity, however, is local, and the larger your China, the higher your Mandate gain. Doesn't even scale with State value, so that 1/1/1 Siberian tribe in polar region you conquered some time ago will give you as much as the Forbidden city state (sans Monument). Same for devastation.
The list goes on, but you get the idea. Designing for EU4 is a constant balancing act because most systems can't decide on local vs global value
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I wonder how this interacts with heavily developed provinces and especially the south eastern asia countries with their "Gain 100% from concentrate development" government reform.We all know 1.31 concentrate gave results to crazy capitals, and there was a lot of controversy on whether that was "good" or not (I didn't mind, but I do understand the sentiments of people expecting realism/their notion of balance, so I won't argue about that part). Now it turns out that on 1.32 with the new changes, you cannot concentrate dev if it does not raise the development of your capital by at least one.
View attachment 772213
(Cicigar is 3/3/1, which under 1.31 rules would make it 2/2/1 post concentrate)
So what does that mean? Well, due to horrendous dev cost scaling, it means that once your capital is at a reasonable dev, you can barely use concentrate dev, and the only way to use it past the first few decades is to move your capital. I guess what I had in mind with new concentrate is that it lets you burn dev even if it won't raise your capital's development, which I suppose can cause it to be a trap button for some players, so I do understand this block.
Perhaps a good compromise would be to introduce some sort of "concentrate development progress bar" that lets you deal with these cases when the state you are concentrating is not wealthy enough? Or maybe concentrate should pick another stated province to send development off to?
My screenshot is certainly exaggerating the problem (it's already 1446 and I can't use it
So, the question is... should concentrate essentially be unclickable after the early game unless you move capitals around? I obviously have my own agenda here, since the ability to burn uncored dev (I don't care about capital dev) helps WCs a lot, but even when considering more "normal" playstyles, I feel like this phenomenon is not very good, which is why I'm making this post.
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The real reason why they created it is to answer to the crowd crying for having a tall play mechanics.
But they were wrong badly and was stated in DD for Leviathan than it will benefit more for wide than tall play. And still, they sold it as a tall feature in the advertising for Leviathan XD
For reference: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...elopment-diary-23rd-of-february-2021.1458761/
But they were wrong badly and was stated in DD for Leviathan than it will benefit more for wide than tall play. And still, they sold it as a tall feature in the advertising for Leviathan XD
For reference: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...elopment-diary-23rd-of-february-2021.1458761/
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I thought concentrate dev was supposed to spread it across all provinces in your capitol area? Is it also impossible when area provinces could be improved?
It can still be used for playing Tall. For me playing tall is small-medium sized country with a lot of dev with a good number of vassals. Vassals can still be concentrated, so it can be used for it at the very least.
I will in the end agree though that at the end they implemented the mechanic in a way that made it too viable for wide players to use too (Outside of how OP it was too)
Not a mind reader; however, I suspect that the purpose originally behind "concentrate" development was to (1) create a "play tall" mechanic; (2) bleed some of the extra development that has been added to the game over time. Once upon a time, the 1821 world development was 22k-24k. Now, I think you'd be hard pressed to have a game where final dev was lower than 24k.
While it may have bled off some dev, probably not as much as they thought it might. If you think about it, provinces tend not to trade hands much as they did in real life. Historically, Alsace-Lorraine traded back and forth several times in just a hundred years or so. In EU4, when a nation starts to loose, typically they keep on losing.
Also, it is really very hard to make a "play tall" mechanic that can't be used as effectively -- if not more effectively -- by the play wide players. I think this ended up being true for original "concentrate."
I think that they've changed course and decided that it makes more sense to lower AE impact and warscore costs across the board to account for development bloat and help out newer players. Here, they may need to be a bit careful not to crush AE too much.
While it may have bled off some dev, probably not as much as they thought it might. If you think about it, provinces tend not to trade hands much as they did in real life. Historically, Alsace-Lorraine traded back and forth several times in just a hundred years or so. In EU4, when a nation starts to loose, typically they keep on losing.
Also, it is really very hard to make a "play tall" mechanic that can't be used as effectively -- if not more effectively -- by the play wide players. I think this ended up being true for original "concentrate."
I think that they've changed course and decided that it makes more sense to lower AE impact and warscore costs across the board to account for development bloat and help out newer players. Here, they may need to be a bit careful not to crush AE too much.
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I'd like to see it the way it is now, but you can choose the province the dev goes to.
I would prefer to see the wasted points go into a reserve that then used when manualy increasing Dev.
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I think so. @Destaloss asked about being able to maliciously pillaging enemy capitals earlier in the thread, and I thought this might answer some of their questions. Sorry, I should have replied to his comment.
Just for clarity sake, I will link the quote again from the 1.32 changelog: