so then what exactly causes the longer battles? is combat time a function of unit toughness and defensiveness? also, if combat is longer in TRP, then are more casualties produced (i.e. will the new system cause excess drain on manpower)? thanks.
-
We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
seems defensiveness is higher - and no I doin't think they wanted to create more drain on manpower. They have a thicker shield to prevent more fatal shots.
I have a question about the new combat system. Actually of an observation/gripe more than a question.
Playing as the Germans, I waited until about May of 1943 to declare war and I attacked the Western Front. I invaded Belgium, quickly punched thru the frontier and surrounded Brussels. Belgium had 4 defending infantry divisions; Germany attacked with 8 regular Panzer divisions with heavy panzer brigades attached, and 4 Waffen Panzer divisions with heavy panzer brigades attached. (I hope you can say Waffen on this site, I know their other nomenclature is probably illegal).
After waiting three days for the Belgians to surrender because they were surrounded, I threw 50 (yes, 50) infantry divisions into the fray. I waited another three days and the Belgians still had not surrendered.
I was also merrily bombing away with ground support and I had achieved air superiority, if not supremacy, over Brussels. After almost a week of fighting a surrounded enemy, I determined my divisional Panzer 4's and Tiger brigades were made out of paper and I quit at that point.
What gives? In the vanilla version, this battle would have been over in hours, not after almost a week.
Am I the only one having a slight peeve over an otherwise awesome mod?
Playing as the Germans, I waited until about May of 1943 to declare war and I attacked the Western Front. I invaded Belgium, quickly punched thru the frontier and surrounded Brussels. Belgium had 4 defending infantry divisions; Germany attacked with 8 regular Panzer divisions with heavy panzer brigades attached, and 4 Waffen Panzer divisions with heavy panzer brigades attached. (I hope you can say Waffen on this site, I know their other nomenclature is probably illegal).
After waiting three days for the Belgians to surrender because they were surrounded, I threw 50 (yes, 50) infantry divisions into the fray. I waited another three days and the Belgians still had not surrendered.
I was also merrily bombing away with ground support and I had achieved air superiority, if not supremacy, over Brussels. After almost a week of fighting a surrounded enemy, I determined my divisional Panzer 4's and Tiger brigades were made out of paper and I quit at that point.
What gives? In the vanilla version, this battle would have been over in hours, not after almost a week.
Am I the only one having a slight peeve over an otherwise awesome mod?
i love longer battles... if you want to proceed fast you have think of paratroopers, combined-arms, leaders, air-support and so on...
the only disadvantage is that if you save and reload a game the ai forgot what it attacks befor and the defender always wins the battle at game-start. Think thats a doomsday-issue.
the only disadvantage is that if you save and reload a game the ai forgot what it attacks befor and the defender always wins the battle at game-start. Think thats a doomsday-issue.
sachse said:
I forgot to mention that I've been playing HOI ever since it came out, so I know all about leaders, paratroopers, combined-arms, air support, and so on.
I believe I mentioned air support, I believe that the 50 extra infantry divisions I threw in would be considered as combined arms.
I did NOT mention that I had a HQ in each group of panzer divisions. I had two groups of 4 panzer divisions each with a HQ unit. Each Panzer group was led by a level 3 leader. Also the 4 SS units also had an HQ unit and were also led by a level 3 leader. The 2 air units (each with 3 JU87G and 1 Interceptor) I had that were doing ground attack missions had a level 2 leader.
I still really believe that the combat was very unrealistic. I attacked a surrounded province that had 4 beat up 3rd rate infantry units with 12 first rate armored units, with air support. Come on, that combat should have been over in less than a day. I attacked with more units (and they also had more strength) than the Germans attacked with in the Battle of the Bulge and the Belgians held out way longer than the Americans could have even thought about with the same number of forces (historically).
I am saying that I REALLY like the mod, and will continue playing it. Maybe I just ran into a snafu with my particular copy. I have deleted all the programs and have reloaded them. Maybe that will fix my problem with the combat being too slow.
I never ran into this problem so something else is causing it. Your units perhaps have no org or your attacking in the middle of winter so with bad weather penalties, bad terrain penalties, over stacking penalties are probably negating your attack to almost nothing.
Just because a unit is surrounded does not mean they will just roll over and die like they did in Vanilla. We modified the surround penalty so it was not so severe. They still get a penalty but nothing like it useto be so they will fight back.
Just because a unit is surrounded does not mean they will just roll over and die like they did in Vanilla. We modified the surround penalty so it was not so severe. They still get a penalty but nothing like it useto be so they will fight back.
Lothos said:
Ahh, ok. Thanks for the answer, Lothos. Like I said, I really have enjoyed your mod. I am in the middle now of trying to get it to work again tho. I can't seem to find the TRP executable file so I can run it direct from that. I had video problems and running directly from the TRP exe file fixed it, advice I found in the forums.
I was attacking in clear weather, so no problems there. Over stacking limits were taken care of, each leader could command 9 units, and each leader had only 5. The infantry was way over stacked, but I threw them only after about three days had passed. I had plenty of Org, I was at full at the start of the fight.
Maybe it was because I was attacking in a built up area (Brussels) with tanks. I will try different tactics next time, maybe allow my infantry units to mop up those surrounded areas while my tanks continue on into the frontier.
Thanks again, Lothos.
Better understanding
I now have no problem at all with the combat system, I just needed a little more self education.
I attacked Paris in June 1940 as the Germans from across a river and even though I had no engineers with the panzer corp I attacked with the combat was over in four (FOUR) hours. Game hours, not real. One game hour after I attacked with the tank corp I air assaulted with one parachute division and that's all that it took. One look at the tanks rolling across the bridges and the Fallshirmjaeger dropping from the skies and the Frogs were running like crazy.
I had three divisions of 1939 tanks each with a brigade of medium tanks, 1 headquarters unit equipped with a self propelled gun brigade, and 1 division of parachute infantry. The French had 9 divisions of infantry.
The mod is more realistic in that it demands that you pay close attention to how you equip your divisions and what technologies you choose to develop. Ignore developing Para and Marine units at your own peril. Make sure you have an engineer unit with one of your units so that river penalty can be overcome.
Thanks for the great mod, this one is the best, no doubt.
I now have no problem at all with the combat system, I just needed a little more self education.
I attacked Paris in June 1940 as the Germans from across a river and even though I had no engineers with the panzer corp I attacked with the combat was over in four (FOUR) hours. Game hours, not real. One game hour after I attacked with the tank corp I air assaulted with one parachute division and that's all that it took. One look at the tanks rolling across the bridges and the Fallshirmjaeger dropping from the skies and the Frogs were running like crazy.
I had three divisions of 1939 tanks each with a brigade of medium tanks, 1 headquarters unit equipped with a self propelled gun brigade, and 1 division of parachute infantry. The French had 9 divisions of infantry.
The mod is more realistic in that it demands that you pay close attention to how you equip your divisions and what technologies you choose to develop. Ignore developing Para and Marine units at your own peril. Make sure you have an engineer unit with one of your units so that river penalty can be overcome.
Thanks for the great mod, this one is the best, no doubt.
Vaanan1 said:
Its takes a little bit to get it,but I agree I like it much better than Vanilla.
I've been playing as Germany and have had some pretty frustrating encounters with the combat system myself. In May of 1940 I invaded simulatenously Norway, Sweden, Belgium and Holland, however on the western front quickly realised that attacking a defending force of 9 or more divisions simply takes days even with a armoured force 4 times its size. While initially I tried to use my usual rapid breakthrough and encirclement, I found I basically needed to support any attack on a moderately defended territory with the brunt of my army. We're talking 65 divisions against 14 in Aachen! But then, even as the battle appears to be in my favour, it drags on for sequential days while France reinforces and eventually trumps me!
I admittedly am not too fidlly air support, just a group each of CAS and tact for ground att and inderdiction; and i dont bother with attaching more than a few artillery, AT, and Eng brigades to my 6 core armies but this is rediculous. Armour is simply useless, because the rapid edge it brings is both in battles and advancing ceases to exist. But it seems that you cant win at all by conventional large-front warfare against a main opponent, and I havent even clashed horns with the soviets yet!
I'm about to turn back the clock 2 years and rebuild a more rounded army as the previous posts suggest, but I really dont see how my problem with this TRP vers combat is isolated to my regular style.
I admittedly am not too fidlly air support, just a group each of CAS and tact for ground att and inderdiction; and i dont bother with attaching more than a few artillery, AT, and Eng brigades to my 6 core armies but this is rediculous. Armour is simply useless, because the rapid edge it brings is both in battles and advancing ceases to exist. But it seems that you cant win at all by conventional large-front warfare against a main opponent, and I havent even clashed horns with the soviets yet!
I'm about to turn back the clock 2 years and rebuild a more rounded army as the previous posts suggest, but I really dont see how my problem with this TRP vers combat is isolated to my regular style.
You are trying to use Vanilla tactics with TRP and they will not work. Refer to the TRP website and search the forums where people have given tons of advice on how to really get your armor showing its true colors.