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NikitaDirigable

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IMG_7153.jpg

New provinces in East Baltic:
1. Hapsal;
2. Reval;
3. Narva;
4. Fellin;
5. Dorpat;
6. Venden;
7. Koknese;
8. Mitava;
9. Durbe;
10. Windau;
11. Samogitia (sorry, I badly do its border)
12. Memel;
13. Ösel ( that don't satisfy Ösel and Hapsal on my map).

New states:
I. Hapsal archbishop;
II. Dorpat archbishop;
III. Riga archbishop;
IV. Courland archbishop.
All states are vassal Livonian order.

New cultures (maybe):
-Livonian — only in Riga, but livonian culture is state culture in livonian states — in German group.
-Samogitian — culture in province Samogitia.
-Curonians — culture in provinces Mitava, Durbe, Windau.

Livonian Order in 15 centure was smaller than game version. Also, Livonian Order had many vassals.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terra_Mariana
 
Last edited:

rho

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What's your logic for wanting to add these? Do they fix historical inaccuracies? Do they add extra depth to strategic gameplay? Do they resolve balance of power issues in the region? Or what?
 

NikitaDirigable

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What's your logic for wanting to add these? Do they fix historical inaccuracies? Do they add extra depth to strategic gameplay? Do they resolve balance of power issues in the region? Or what?

Yes they fix historical inaccuracies.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terra_Mariana
Livonian Order in 15 century was smaller than game period. Also, Livonian Order had many vassals in this time.
Besides, I probably made mistake with West Baltic.
 
Last edited:

NikitaDirigable

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IMG_7154.PNG
What's your logic for wanting to add these? Do they fix historical inaccuracies? Do they add extra depth to strategic gameplay? Do they resolve balance of power issues in the region? Or what?

On this map image historic Livonian Order:
 

AirikrStrife

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I have thought about this before but I don't find it necessary. Livonia was essentially a federation and had always been. It wouldn't be important to add 4 new bishoprics into the region.

I do agree there should be some more provinces. One more in Estonia, one between Latgalia and Livonia (more in lines with how the borders between swedish and polish livonia looked) and perhaps one more in Curonia.

The new cultures are absolutly unnecessary thought. Curonian and Samogitian are not independent enough, nor is livonian an accurate representation of baltic germans to which Prussian works adequatly.

If any new tags I'd rather see Livonia as a tag for a secularized prussian state and Latgalia for latvian culture. A Samogitia tag would also be appropriate.
 

NikitaDirigable

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I have thought about this before but I don't find it necessary. Livonia was essentially a federation and had always been. It wouldn't be important to add 4 new bishoprics into the region.

I do agree there should be some more provinces. One more in Estonia, one between Latgalia and Livonia (more in lines with how the borders between swedish and polish livonia looked) and perhaps one more in Curonia.

The new cultures are absolutly unnecessary thought. Curonian and Samogitian are not independent enough, nor is livonian an accurate representation of baltic germans to which Prussian works adequatly.

If any new tags I'd rather see Livonia as a tag for a secularized prussian state and Latgalia for latvian culture. A Samogitia tag would also be appropriate.
Thank you, I understand my mistakes.
 

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I know that this topic was discussed before, but I do think that the culture tag for Dorpat should be Estonian. The tag for Liefland, which is also contested is less clear to me and I haven't done enough research to have a final opinion on it, apart from saying that most of the map covers nowadays Estonian territory.
To me things in the Dorpat/Tartu province are much more clear and speaking in favor of a change to Estonian culture, as it included nowadays
Tartu County, Põlva County, Võru County, and Jõgeva County in Estonia - some like Võrumaa famous for their old and special Estonian dialect. All historic maps of the Dorpat Bishopric (1224-1560) show the territory of being part of Estonian culture and language dominated territory. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bishopric_of_Dorpat

Another source is claiming, that even settlers from other countries integrated rather quickly, not stating anything about the adoption of Latvian culture in Estonia (apart from the Swedes and Russian Old Believers): "From the 13th century AD onwards, people arrived in towns mainly from Germany and Sweden. In the Middle Ages, the towns became largely German, although nearly half the town dwellers were Estonians. Foreigners who settled in rural areas, mostly from Finland, Russia, Latvia, Lithuania and Poland, assimilated fairly quickly, due to the low population-density of the area and a long settlement period. Swedes settling in western and northern coastal areas and the Russian Old Believers, who arrived from Russia for political reasons and settled on the western coast of Lake Peipsi, did not assimilate with the Estonians." http://www.estonica.org/en/Society/Population/Composition_of_the_population/

This article is showing the history of Estonian Language which was even reaching into nowadays Latvian territory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Estonian
Thus making the province of Dorpat an Latvian tag, doesn't make much sense to me and I would suggest to change the cultural tag to Estonian :)

I appreciate your consideration and I am happy to discuss this topic further if need be :)

Sources:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bishopric_of_Dorpat
http://www.estonica.org/en/History/...d_formation_of_a_new_administrative_division/
http://www.estonica.org/en/Society/Population/Composition_of_the_population/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estonian_language
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Estonian
 

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bebrst

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I've done some readings on Livland / Liefland and I'm still unsure about it. I do understand why the Latvian tag is there, given that parts of the territory belong to Latvia and then Latvian culture should also be represented in game. Nevertheless, from an historic point of view, at least for early game time, facts would suggest that an Estonian, or a new Livonian tag would make more sense for the Livland province.

The following map (just labeled with Livonian Confederation 1237-1561) shows that the territory of Livland is populated by Estonians and Livonians (source https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Livland and here http://ome-lexikon.uni-oldenburg.de/regionen/livland/#c173274 - both in German)
800px-Livland_gross.jpg


Given that Livonians are belonging to Finno-Ugric tribes and spoke a finnic language, they are culturally and language wise much closer to Estonians than to Latvians. ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Livonian_language )
This map about the historic distribution of Livonian language in Latvia shows that the Livland territory was populated by Livonians and Estonians, not so much by Latvians though. Liivi_keel.GIF

Maps about the settling of Baltic tribes in 1200 in the region also prove that the Baltic (Latvian / Lithuanian) tribes settled in different territories, while the Finno-ugric / Estonian tribes have been populating the area of Livland.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Baltic_Tribes_c_1200.svg
800px-Baltic_Tribes_c_1200.svg.png

I am not sure about the tag for this province, but I guess for historical reasons a new "Livonian tag" or an Estonian Tag would fit more, at least for the starting date of the game. As the territory of Danish, and later Swedish Estonia (Duchy of Estonia - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duchy_of_Estonia_(1561–1721) ) was only covering the northern provinces of Estonia, not Livland and Dörpt /Tartu, i am not sure if for political reasons a Latvian Tag would make more sense. Livland and later Swedish Livland covered both, Latvian and Estonian territories. Nevertheless, the culture in Liefland / Livland would be more accurately represented by a finno-ugric (Estonian or Livonian) tag :) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_Livonia

Sw_BalticProv_en.png



As always, I am happy to discuss this matter further if need be :)
 

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I've done some readings on Livland / Liefland and I'm still unsure about it. I do understand why the Latvian tag is there, given that parts of the territory belong to Latvia and then Latvian culture should also be represented in game. Nevertheless, from an historic point of view, at least for early game time, facts would suggest that an Estonian, or a new Livonian tag would make more sense for the Livland province.

The following map (just labeled with Livonian Confederation 1237-1561) shows that the territory of Livland is populated by Estonians and Livonians (source https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Livland and here http://ome-lexikon.uni-oldenburg.de/regionen/livland/#c173274 - both in German)
View attachment 248408


Given that Livonians are belonging to Finno-Ugric tribes and spoke a finnic language, they are culturally and language wise much closer to Estonians than to Latvians. ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Livonian_language )
This map about the historic distribution of Livonian language in Latvia shows that the Livland territory was populated by Livonians and Estonians, not so much by Latvians though. View attachment 248426

Maps about the settling of Baltic tribes in 1200 in the region also prove that the Baltic (Latvian / Lithuanian) tribes settled in different territories, while the Finno-ugric / Estonian tribes have been populating the area of Livland.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Baltic_Tribes_c_1200.svg
View attachment 248428

I am not sure about the tag for this province, but I guess for historical reasons a new "Livonian tag" or an Estonian Tag would fit more, at least for the starting date of the game. As the territory of Danish, and later Swedish Estonia (Duchy of Estonia - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duchy_of_Estonia_(1561–1721) ) was only covering the northern provinces of Estonia, not Livland and Dörpt /Tartu, i am not sure if for political reasons a Latvian Tag would make more sense. Livland and later Swedish Livland covered both, Latvian and Estonian territories. Nevertheless, the culture in Liefland / Livland would be more accurately represented by a finno-ugric (Estonian or Livonian) tag :) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_Livonia

View attachment 248427



As always, I am happy to discuss this matter further if need be :)


Agreed estonian culture could be extended further south. If one new province could be carved out of southern Livland-Dorpat and northern Wenden (essentially southern part of swedish livonia with wenden corresponding to polish livonia after 1629. That new province could get latvian culture with livland and dorpat getting estonian culture.
 

bebrst

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after the 1.20 patch Dörpt / Tartu is now belonging to the state of Estonia, but still has the Latvian tag (Lievland hasn't changed). Is there any explanation for that, which I haven't seen yet? I was just wondering, as I don't think it makes much sense (see reasoning above) :) Happy to be convinced otherwise if you have good reasons for it :)
But as always, a great patch and dlc! Tack sa mycket! ;)

PS: Hope all of you Paradox guys are fine?! Thoughts are with Stockholm :(
 

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i have a 1.9 mod for Livonia-TO-Pomerania overhaul, wouldn't work on 1.2 because its 1.19 mod, eu4 added provs! atm working on voltaire's nightmare with I'm FBI :)
OUAMidW.jpg

X1gOH0L.jpg
 
Last edited:

bebrst

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@Trin Tragula , I would love, if you guys would use the 1.22 Russia patch to give the Baltic region some well needed love and flavor (and border/culture tag adjustments) as suggested above :)

- I'd really like to see an Estonian Dorpat, maybe even Lievland (or splitting the region to better represent the Livonian/Estonian and the Latvian Part - maybe a Pärnu/Pernau province?)
- National Ideas for the Livonian Order would be nice, not those generic ones.
- Ideas for Estonian NIs by @BlackPrince here https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/estonia-nis.924393/#post-21077231
- I'm sure there are many more great ideas out there!

Looking forward to the new patch and to more historic flavor in the northern regions! Tack! ;)
 

bebrst

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Dear Paradox Team,

The new "Russia Patch" would be a great change to make a small overhaul of the Baltic Region. This would add more historic details and at the same time more game play experience for the Livonian Order.
As i argued above in post #7 & #8, I would propose some changes of the culture tags in the Baltic region. Dorpat should have an Estonian tag (it is already belonging to the Estonian State since the last patch), and Livland was at least in bigger parts also inhabited by Estonians or other people of the finno-ugric culture- and language family and thus would maybe rather do with an Estonian tag too.

Here some maps and facts supporting my suggestion ;)

1) The Vidzeme region (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vidzeme) of nowadays Latvia, which corresponds with the Latvian parts of the (southern) Livland province was populated by Livonians and Latgalians. Livonians spoke an urlaic language closely related to Finnish and Estonian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Livonians). As the (northern) Estonian parts of the Livland region were also culturally Estonian, Livland province as of now should have an Estonian culture tag.

2) This map about historical Estonian folk cultures is also showing that the Tartu / Dorpat region was traditionally Estonian dominated, not Latvian :)
The-main-cultural-regions-within-Estonian-traditional-popular-culture-after.png
Source: https://www.researchgate.net/figure...in-Estonian-traditional-popular-culture-after

3) The map of Historical Estonian Provinces (until 1217) also shows that both, Dorpat and (big parts of) Livland region were culturally rather Estonian than Latvian :)
800px-Ancient_Estonian_counties.png
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ancient_Estonian_counties.png

4) This map of the Baltic Sea of 1539 also marks those territories as part of "Esthia".
Carta_Marina.jpeg
Source: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ea/Carta_Marina.jpeg


Conclusion
My suggestion would hence be, to give Dorpat the Estonian culture tag (and not only let it be part of the Estonian state/region), and maybe to split the Livland region into a northern and southern part. This could represent the different cultures and languages in this region better and split the biggest provinces of the Livonian Order to give it more strategic options. My suggestion would be to form a province along the border of Pernau (8) and Fellin (3) in the following map of Livonia (1534).
Livonia_in_1534_(English).png
Source: https://lv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attēls:Livonia_in_1534_(English).png

The province could be called either Fellin, Pernau or Estonia Propria (as on this map about Swedish Livonia from 1705).
Ducatuum_Livoniae_et_Curlandiae_Nova_Tabula,_1705.jpg
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ducatuum_Livoniae_et_Curlandiae_Nova_Tabula,_1705.jpg


Both cities had a "Ordensburg" (castle of the Order) and were Hanseatic cities, thus had an influential role in this region (other hanseatic cities during the early Livonian time in nowadays Estonia according to following map: / Reval (Tallinn) and Dorpat (Tartu).
In 1470 Johann Wolthus von Herse, the leader of the Livonian Order took residence in Fellin, thus showing the importance of this town (source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viljandi )

690px-Teutonic_Order_1410.png
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Teutonic_Order_1410.png

I hope this offers some "food for thoughts" to consider my suggested changes :)
I'm happy to discuss these suggestions and change them if you have better ideas. I think that the changes could offer first - a better cultural and historic depiction of the region, and a better game play and strategic depths for playing the Livonian Order. It would also help to make the different rules over Livonia more historic, as the new province helps to draw better borders for the Livonian Order, the Swedish, the Polish and later the Russian control over parts or all of the territory.
If I find the time, I hope to be able to create a file with the suggested map changes :)
 
Last edited:

bebrst

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My suggestion for the above introduced new province :)

Pernau Fellin Province_eu4jpg.jpg




Potential names (and capitals) would be

- Fellin (as In 1470 Johann Wolthus von Herse, the leader of the Livonian Order took residence in Fellin)
/// Green spot on the map (**** EDIT: I would also like to mention that the current capital city of Livland is already Fellin, but it is wrongly placed on the map, please change this :) )

- Pernau (an important ice-free harbor and also hosting a Ordensburg close by)
/// Yellow spot on the map

- Estonia Propria as on this map of 1705
Ducatuum_Livoniae_et_Curlandiae_Nova_Tabula,_1705.jpg


This would allow the keep the Latvian culture in Livonia but also depict the Estonian / uralian influence in Southern Estonia and Northern Latvia. Livonia thus would have Latvian culture, the new province the Estonian one. I would suggest to add it to the state of Estonia.


Agreed estonian culture could be extended further south. If one new province could be carved out of southern Livland-Dorpat and northern Wenden (essentially southern part of swedish livonia with wenden corresponding to polish livonia after 1629. That new province could get latvian culture with livland and dorpat getting estonian culture.
@AirikrStrife suggested alternatively a province "Wenden". I might find the time to make a suggestion for this one too, but feel free to edit something too in case you have the time and motivation :)

What do you guys think?
 
Last edited:

AndrejK

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Two new provinces maximum in the Baltic as everyone else would need balance
 

bebrst

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Two new provinces maximum in the Baltic as everyone else would need balance
completely agree with that @AndrejK :) but after Russia getting more provinces in the upcoming patch, Lithuania as well, if i remember correctly, and Sweden and Denmark got some in the Denmark patch, I guess one or two, not too highly developed provinces wouldn't harm the balance too much
 

bebrst

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I'd like to mention @Ratka 's mod. Here the Fellin province already exists :) this could be a potential way to go, but I don't think Paradox will want to include the smaller provinces and states in Latvia, for game play reasons, as they just might be too small (even when being based on historical facts) :)
i have a 1.9 mod for Livonia-TO-Pomerania overhaul, wouldn't work on 1.2 because its 1.19 mod, eu4 added provs! atm working on voltaire's nightmare with I'm FBI :)
OUAMidW.jpg

X1gOH0L.jpg
 

bebrst

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EU IV Changes in the BALTIC STATES.jpg

One potential way to go:


- Green: the Fellin or Pernau province (Estonian culture) / capital either Fellin/Viljandi (green), or Pernau /Pärnu (blue)


- Pink: Liefland or Wenden province (Latvian culture) / capital city Wenden (it includes the territories controlled by the Master of the Livonian Order, the Field Marshal and the Archpisporic of Riga territories (apart from the city of Riga)). See here 800px-Livland_gross.jpg and here Livonia_in_1534_(English).png https://lv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attēls:Livonia_in_1534_(English).png

- White: Dünaburg (Latvian culture) with Dünaburg as capital, representing the commandry of Daugavpils (Dünaburg) (no 17) Livonia_in_1534_(English).png



I for my part would be happy with just splitting the Liefland province in two parts (Fellin/Pernau & Liefland). This suggestion would represent a bit better the confederation of the Livonian Order though - which included different territories and bishoprics - by adding an additional province.
 

AirikrStrife

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I forgot about this thread but now when I'm in Latvia myself and are reading a lot about the history while here I remembered the thread (going to Turaida castle tmr)
@bebrst that map you have is how I would have suggested to redraw the terra mariana aswell, i just want one slight addition.

I want to highlight how the map should try to also adapt to post-1444 changes as far as possible, that's why Dünaborg is important as being what was left of polish livonia in 1629.

Another change needed in some way is to redraw the map as to better represent the couronian panhandle (selonia). Either by drawing a new province or redrawing Mitau province.

All in all Curonia should get one new province, the later duchy was actually very succesfull and I really don't want to see Ösel as part of Curonia area -.-

With added land area to Curonia a new province could be based around Jacobstadt (panhandle) or Windau (northern coast)

Creating two possible ways to finally sort out the baltic reagion in a neat way along the three main areas (Livonia, Couronia, Estonia)


Estonia: Tallinn, Narva, Ösel,
Livonia: Wenden, Dünaborg, Riga

With Pernau and Dorpat going to either of those areas.

Couronia: Mitau, Goldingen, new province

Some province development might need twerking but overall livonia could get some 10-15 dev increase. Havent gotten the chance to check third rome yet so don't know yet how that'll check out with balance