New capital for each institution?

[rinehime]

You are just looking in the wrong place. Its a general province spread modifier not an institution spread modifier.

Ah ha! Thanks! Someone should probably update the wiki. (the page is protected, are they all like that? I've never edited it...)

Giving the province to the Burghers usually ensures they will get loyal enough to give you the -devcost, sooner or later.

Yeah, giving them provinces will increase loyalty, but it could be any province, not the one you need the institution to spread to. Also, if you give them one you're about to develop, you could potentially push them over the 80% disaster threshold as you develop from say 10-35. Instead you could give them some other province to get loyalty up.

 

[rinehime]

There's been a lot of side talk about spawning close together and near high development provinces, and while that's all good, no one's focused on the actual cost of moving the capital.

To answer the OP's question:

TLDR: You can move your capital once to a development friendly province, preferably later when you have a large reduction modifier. After that's it's probably not worth it. There are two times it's worth it to move your capital - A forced capital move (e.g. country formation) or if you haven't spawned there once before and hence have a cheap movement cost.

Long version:
The problem is, if you spawn once in your capital, it'll have a minimum development of 35 (assuming 3-7 starting development). Assuming you move to a 15 dev or less province, it'll cost 700 ADM. At most, you'd develop 32 times (3 to 35 dev) to spawn an institution. With the max capital bonus (-50%, additive) you save 25 MP per click (0.5*50 MP base). Because it's additive, it doesn't really matter what other bonuses/penalties there are. (You can always spawn in a province with favorable modifiers without the cost of moving your capital there and get the same savings)

Developing 32 times gives a total MP savings of 800 (25*32) developing. In this best case scenario, (max capital bonus, moving from 35 to 3 dev), you save 100 total MP..... But that's not counting the fact that a 3 dev province requires and additional 200 MP to spawn (vs a 7 dev province). You're also spending ADM to move when you could be spending DIP and MIL to develop, which isn't worth it unless your ruler is 6/1/1.

That potential bonus is 0 at a 35->7 dev move, and negative for more developed provinces. The 700 ADM cost for moving doesn't decrease till you're below a 20 dev difference (35 to 15) . At that point, you'll spend 700 ADM to move but only save 575 MP developing, for a net loss of 125 MP.

There might be combinations at edge cases that work out, but I doubt it. The more developed a province you move to (to save in the movement cost), the fewer times you need to develop, reducing your development savings.

 

[Quaade]

There's been a lot of side talk about spawning close together and near high development provinces, and while that's all good, no one's focused on the actual cost of moving the capital.

It´s a good point... then you could bring up the fact, that putting down burghers under high influence and loyalty (over 60) which can be easily obtained by planning ahead by removing estates, loyalty ticks up and when insti spawns just put them down and use estate interactions to get influence over 60... then you also get 10% discount

 

[CplKatie]

It´s a good point... then you could bring up the fact, that putting down burghers under high influence and loyalty (over 60) which can be easily obtained by planning ahead by removing estates, loyalty ticks up and when insti spawns just put them down and use estate interactions to get influence over 60... then you also get 10% discount

The dev cost modifier for burghers is nationally not just burghers provinces. The naval force limit and trade power modifiers of burghers are the ones that are provinces only.

 

[Quaade]

The dev cost modifier for burghers is nationally not just burghers provinces. The naval force limit and trade power modifiers of burghers are the ones that are provinces only.

Oh yeah... that´s right... Forgot about it being nationally... had gotten into my head it applied on province basis thx

 

[CplKatie]

Oh yeah... that´s right... Forgot about it being nationally... had gotten into my head it applied on province basis thx

They don't really have a great place to detail the local modifiers they get. Its on the wiki though. The stuff on the estate tab where you manage the estates influence is all national modifiers though.

 

[Dominion]

Capital City gives around -20% when you're sitting in ROTW and have to develop Colonialism/PP. I'm assuming you've reached a certain size.

You invest 2000 dev into popping the institution as a rule of thumb and spend around 450 adm points for the 20% discount.

Is it worth it? Kinda-ish? Maybe? Depends?

You're forcing yourself to invest admin points. I prefer using dip/mil to pop the institution tbh.

Can be a net gain though. Especially if you have higher total dev and get a 30% discount.

 

[trojan1234]

To answer OP's question, I did some math. Here is the results:

We pop up first institution in capital, resulting in 35-38 dev.

According to wiki ( http://www.eu4wiki.com/Capital#Moving_the_capital ), moving to a province of dev less than 15-18 cost 700 adm.
At the time of second or third institution, we have burgher 10%, edict 10%, and prosperity 10% discount, plus assume that we reaches 50% capital bonus.
So moving capital makes dev cost mod. from -30% to -80%, which are shown in the last column. It can be profit in terms of total MP if you moves to dev 8 or less. This method is paying adm to save dip and mil, at most 100 points.


I attached file for your information. Note that capital bonus update(as we click in early game) is not included so not 100% exact.

EDIT: yes the min MP for 30% case is 1666 so saving 660 MP if moving to 3 dev provinces. I am dumb. It's not profit at all

 

[Dominion]

According to wiki ( http://www.eu4wiki.com/Capital#Moving_the_capital ), moving to a province of dev less than 15-18 cost 700 adm.

The wiki is wrong.

Paris sits at 32
21 development less costs 529

And the 50% cap bonus is pretty much unachievable in a normal run for Colonialism, which you want to pop in 1500.

EDIT: You shouldn't include any "% saved" modifiers in your calculations anyways, aside from cap bonus, obviously. Since all of these modifiers apply whether it's your capital or not.
And since they're additive it doesn't matter how you add them. Throw them out of your sheet.

 

[trojan1234]

The wiki is wrong.

Paris sits at 32
21 development less costs 529

And the 50% cap bonus is pretty much unachievable in a normal run for Colonialism, which you want to pop in 1500.

EDIT: You shouldn't include any "% saved" modifiers in your calculations anyways, aside from cap bonus, obviously. Since all of these modifiers apply whether it's your capital or not.
And since they're additive it doesn't matter how you add them. Throw them out of your sheet.

Hmm then it ccould be efficient moving capital to get discount. Thank you for infos.

% dev cost mod are for my curiosity. It is being said that 2000 MP to pop an institution but no % dev cost reduction counted. I wanted to know how much mp exactly needed in my game(30% -40% discount).

 

[Dominion]

You can not say "it's efficient" as a rule of thumb. You need to differentiate between col and PP and include your starting nation as well as your rate of expansion.

When I'm starting as Vijayanagar and want to spawn PP I can get a 40% discount.
When I'm starting as Garwhal and want to spawn col I'll barely make it to 25%. Probably not even that.

That's a difference of at least 300 MP and also the difference between "it's worth it" and "it's not".

Case-by-case decision. Plain and simple.

 

[rinehime]

To answer OP's question, I did some math. Here is the results:
<...snip...>
So moving capital makes dev cost mod. from -30% to -80%, which are shown in the last column. It can be profit in terms of total MP if you moves to dev 8 or less. This method is paying adm to save dip and mil, at most 100 points.
<...snip...>

Thanks for confirming my math above . But given that the wiki's wrong, it looks like we have to recalculate. Sounds like it might be worth it at some development differences. I thought about putting together a table with "Current Capital Dev" along the top and "Target Spawn Province Dev" along the side for different % bonus to see where things even out. You'd have to re-determine the capital movements costs though.

You can not say "it's efficient" as a rule of thumb. You need to differentiate between col and PP and include your starting nation as well as your rate of expansion.

Well, yeah, everything's case dependent (except for taking Adim Ideas ), but the first step is to just come up with the numbers (not using the wiki apparently...) to see how they balance out. For the most part, all of the "case-dependent" situations can be reduced to net difference between the cost to move and the savings from capital development. This is straightforward to do in-game, when you see the numbers, but having an actual table is worthwhile/interesting to some.

Even if it's a net positive in MP, you still have to consider whether spending ADM vs MIL or DIP is worth it. The exact Institution you're trying to spawn doesn't matter all that much, assuming you'll be spawning it at some point anyway. If you're going to have to spawn PP anyway, you might was well wait till then (when your bigger) to move your capital to province with favorable modifiers, and spawn Ren and Col in the non-capital provinces nearby.

 

[moyang]

Cost of moving capital is calculated like this:

If the target province has 1 lower dev than capital, you need 10 more adm. (thus 210)
This increases by 10 until the difference is 5. 6 you pay 20 more for each development.
Similarly the increment is 30 in 11~15 development difference, 40 in 16~20 development difference, and so on. (The wiki is right on this part.)

So if you move capital from 37 dev province to 16 province, you pay 200+550 = 750, but the cost for moving capital is capped at 700 so it's 700.

But if your nation have less than 1000 total development, you pay less for the additional cost part.
e g. Same situation as above, but if the nation's total development is 280, the cost is
200+550*(280/1000)=354.

So it's cheaper to move capital when you're small, and it could be worth it in long run...

 

[rinehime]

Cost of moving capital is calculated like this:
<snip>
But if you have less than 1000 development, you pay less for the additional cost part.
e g. Same situation as above, but if the nation's total development is 280, the cost is
200+550*(280/1000)=354

Ahhh.. That's the part we were missing - the Wiki includes the difference cost, but not the reduction for less total dev. Is this reduction for total dev or autonomy-modified dev? Is it applied after or before the 700 dev cap?

Interesting, this scales similar to the the capital dev-cost reduction, so it might still not be worth it...

 

[moyang]

Ahhh.. That's the part we were missing - the Wiki includes the difference cost, but not the reduction for less total dev. Is this reduction for total dev or autonomy-modified dev? Is it applied after or before the 700 dev cap?

Interesting, this scales similar to the the capital dev-cost reduction, so it might still not be worth it...

It uses total development. And the reduction is applied before the cost cap, so you can still hit the cap if the development difference is very large.

 

[Dominion]

And if your nation is smaller than 1000 dev your bonus gets reduced.

I mean, with an excel file at hand you could calculate it, but that's way too much effort for me personally. Points saved is somewhere in the 100 MP region at best and a 300 MP loss at worst.

If someone wants to run the numbers, it'd be interesting to see. But I don't expect much tbh.

 

[moyang]

Assuming a scenario: I developed capital to 37 dev and moved capital to 13 dev province, while nation's total development is 200.
Later I grabbed some clay and became a 400 development nation, and trying to develop-embrace an institution.

The cost to move capital : 340

The cost to develop a 13 dev province for an institution with -10% dev cost modifier (assuming grasslands and state edict, and no other modifiers) : 1906
With -30% dev cost modifier: 1666

1666+340=2006, so It's 100 loss.

In this case break-even point would be making nation 562 dev or higher. Or if your nation was really small, like 57 dev, so you pay only 240 adm for moving capital. (hey but 37+13 is already 50)

Long story short, it doesn't look like worth it.

 

[Palatinus Germanicus]

I had a feeling the answer would not be simple. Thanks to those who are mathematically inclined, for crunching the numbers.

I suppose a related question (which might help determine the answer) would be: is there any kind of efficiency curve for province development, in terms of the benefits. I.e., is it better to have 3 level-35 development cities, or one level-85 (or whatever the appropriate total would be) city? -In terms of tax & production income, and manpower. Is that linear, or do you get diminishing returns? Or even increasing returns?

I guess there's also trade power to consider. If you're playing in India, and really want to boost your power across 3 nodes, maybe move the capital to some coastal centers of trade, do your thing, and then move onto the next node, when the next institution arrives. Then you can dominate Bengal, and also stop them from bleeding you out from Africa & Arabia.

 

[Dominion]

Diminishing returns. Dev costs increase but gains stay the same.

Except for Institution progress, which scales with a province's total dev. Everything else doesn't.

 

[Palatinus Germanicus]

Diminishing returns. Dev costs increase but gains stay the same.

Except for Institution progress, which scales with a province's total dev. Everything else doesn't.

So from a 'money & manpower' standpoint, maybe the scale tips back in favor of moving the capital?