New Beta C.O.R.E. v0.7 ***Discussion Thread***

[saintsup]

Strange thing about Liberation Events.

I'm UK. Persia turned to be Axis. I invade Persia. Then Persia joins Allies by events.

The problem is that there was two separate wars: Axis with Allies and Axis with Philippines.

So now Persia together with UK, France, US, ... is at war with Germany, Italy, ...
AND Persia together with Germany, Italy, ...is at war with Philippines

 

[Agelastus]

On the subject of US dissent.......

Around about 1940 the first two times I used 0.7 I realised the USA hadn't added many units - not even the ships under construction.

So I loaded up the save game as the USA and found them quite happily sitting there doing nothing - with 100% dissent, and obviously having been at that for some time..............

Hasn't happened since, but I am only on the fourth or fifth game.

On another subject, I've been experimenting with going in and altering AI nation build queues in-game (France and New Zealand were really bugging me.) I was surprised to see that French cruisers set up to be built by this sort of intervention all had the names of ships already in service.

One thing I have noticed is that although Poland is conquered much more effectively by the AI with CORE rather than Vanilla HOI, the western border of Germany is defended worse.

 

[Ilkhold]

One thing I have noticed is that although Poland is conquered much more effectively by the AI with CORE rather than Vanilla HOI, the western border of Germany is defended worse.

Do you mean you see less units there, or do you see germany loosing more territory?
The first can be explained with the fortifications there.

 

[Semi-Lobster]

On another subject, I've been experimenting with going in and altering AI nation build queues in-game (France and New Zealand were really bugging me.) I was surprised to see that French cruisers set up to be built by this sort of intervention all had the names of ships already in service.

The ships in the build queue where not ready by January 1st 1936. The ships are considered done being built when they where commissioned.

The Richelieu was not commissioned until July 15th, 1940
The Dunkerque was not commissioned until April 15th, 1937
The Strasbourg was not commissioned until December 15th, 1938
The La Galissonière was not commissioned until January 1st, 1936 (short wait for this one to be built! )
The Jean de Vienne was not commissioned until February 10th, 1937
The Georges Leygues was not commissioned until November 15th, 1937
The Marseillaise was not commissioned until October 10th, 1937
La Gloire was not commissioned until November 15th, 1937
The Montcalm was not commissioned until November 15th, 1937

Some of these ships where not even launched by 1936!

 

[Agelastus]

The ships in the build queue where not ready by January 1st 1936. The ships are considered done being built when they where commissioned.

The Richelieu was not commissioned until July 15th, 1940
The Dunkerque was not commissioned until April 15th, 1937
The Strasbourg was not commissioned until December 15th, 1938
The La Galissonière was not commissioned until January 1st, 1936 (short wait for this one to be built! )
The Jean de Vienne was not commissioned until February 10th, 1937
The Georges Leygues was not commissioned until November 15th, 1937
The Marseillaise was not commissioned until October 10th, 1937
La Gloire was not commissioned until November 15th, 1937
The Montcalm was not commissioned until November 15th, 1937

Some of these ships where not even launched by 1936!

Me scratches head?

What's this got to do with my post? New Zealand's building habits don't start bugging until 1940 - in point of fact, I went into the game as France and put cruisers in their build queue in 1943, when those ships were both long built and still in the game.

I suspect you've misread a little.

Do you mean you see less units there, or do you see germany loosing more territory?
The first can be explained with the fortifications there.

Both - in Vanilla Heart's of Iron I need to attack across the Franco-German border with probably a hundred French and Commonwealth divisions to ensure success at the outbreak of war, since by the time the battle's over the Germans have probably managed to commit twenty-thirty. But with CORE I just smash across the frontier with 20-30 French divisions, crush a 3 division garrison, and all of a sudden there's effectively open ground almost as far as Berlin. If manpower hadn't been reduced for pre-war democracies and I could have Vanilla's division levels, the war would be over by Christmas.

I call that worse.

 

[McNaughton]

Both - in Vanilla Heart's of Iron I need to attack across the Franco-German border with probably a hundred French and Commonwealth divisions to ensure success at the outbreak of war, since by the time the battle's over the Germans have probably managed to commit twenty-thirty. But with CORE I just smash across the frontier with 20-30 French divisions, crush a 3 division garrison, and all of a sudden there's effectively open ground almost as far as Berlin. If manpower hadn't been reduced for pre-war democracies and I could have Vanilla's division levels, the war would be over by Christmas.

I call that worse.

It is difficult to simulate the timidness of the French during the phony war period, especially if France is a human player. Realistically, the French could probably have advanced on Berlin if they attacked in September 1939, as even their mobilized forces were able to crush the Germans.

What we might want to do, for Germany, is to have a trigger IF:

War between GER and POL
War between GER and ENG
GER loses control of any frontier province

a new AI file which increases priority against the French would be implemented. HOWEVER, this will really hurt their battle against Poland. The French wouldn't have needed 100 divisions to break through the German West Wall in 1939, their Saar attack proved this (was very successful). I think that the game underestimates the true power of the French army, but it is very difficult to represent the complete timidness of the French High Command.

Keep this in mind, if you change history, expect it to be changed!

 

[Agelastus]

Keep this in mind, if you change history, expect it to be changed!

Of course.

However, AI Germany does not need as high a concentration against AI Poland as CORE seems to cause compared to "Vanilla".

IF CORE is supposed to make the game better for a human to play (ie. harder and more realistic) then making it easier, even accidentally, to smash across the French frontier is counterproductive.

Point - as the Allies my strategy is always to sieze the line of the Rhine - and after that the game is effectively over, it's just a matter of time. CORE seems to add about six months or so to my favourite strategy solely because of the manpower tweaks, but makes it easier to cause more damage to Germany's economy even if the trans-Rhine provinces can't really be held.

 

[Semi-Lobster]

Me scratches head?

What's this got to do with my post? New Zealand's building habits don't start bugging until 1940 - in point of fact, I went into the game as France and put cruisers in their build queue in 1943, when those ships were both long built and still in the game.

I suspect you've misread a little.

I suspect I did, you mentioned problems with the French build queue so I thought you thought there was somethign wrong with it.

New Zealand's ship building habits are VERY odd, we set them to make mainly TP's and DD's equally (or was that 60/40....or 40/60?) but it continued to go overboard with the transports

 

[unmerged(14683)]

Of course.

However, AI Germany does not need as high a concentration against AI Poland as CORE seems to cause compared to "Vanilla".

IF CORE is supposed to make the game better for a human to play (ie. harder and more realistic) then making it easier, even accidentally, to smash across the French frontier is counterproductive.(...)

Well, it's neccessary to finish Poland in one month instead of 2-3 month campaign we experienced before... Although the change you suggest shouldn't be hard to implement. Thanks for suggestion.

BTW, we actually we expect human players to use high levels of difficulty (both HoI and HARD CORE), and that radically changes whole situation. Germany got much more units that are even better equipped, much more fighters to counter enemy attacks and France is usually not able to send to many units in the initial offensive (higher cost/weak equpiment). I strongly suggest playing V.Hard/HARD CORE 3rd choice combination to have challenging game. Without that, you can indeed visit Berlin in 1939.

 

[Semi-Lobster]

Hey, I was wondering if you can edit sphere's of influence or if they are hard coded. I'd like to see Siam in Japan's Sphere of Influence and Cuba in the US' (if it's not in it already)

 

[OHgamer]

Strange thing about Liberation Events.

I'm UK. Persia turned to be Axis. I invade Persia. Then Persia joins Allies by events.

The problem is that there was two separate wars: Axis with Allies and Axis with Philippines.

So now Persia together with UK, France, US, ... is at war with Germany, Italy, ...
AND Persia together with Germany, Italy, ...is at war with Philippines

Ugh - I was seeing similar things happen with Iraq but not before with Persia but for reasons I do not understand, certain nations are treated as separate wars even if they are all part of the Allies (or Axis or Comintern). Why the game engine does this I am not clear but it means that occasionally nations switching alliance don't all get changed over for their wars by the AI. I'll take another look at Persia (I wrote most of the events for that chain) and see what I can do. (grumbling into the distance about the idiosyncracies of the game engine )

 

[Agelastus]

BTW, we actually we expect human players to use high levels of difficulty (both HoI and HARD CORE), and that radically changes whole situation. Germany got much more units that are even better equipped, much more fighters to counter enemy attacks and France is usually not able to send to many units in the initial offensive (higher cost/weak equpiment). I strongly suggest playing V.Hard/HARD CORE 3rd choice combination to have challenging game. Without that, you can indeed visit Berlin in 1939.

Well, one of the reasons I rarely contribute to game discussions these days is that I play them for desperately needed stress relief. I have enough problems with people in real life without the AI slaughtering me too........

As for more fighters though, I don't see (from my limited perspective) that being much help. One of the advantages of siezing Saarbrucken early and basing some fighters there is that the Luftwaffe destroys itself attacking within six months.

Still, to test the validity of my complaint, let's go "Hard CORE" and see if I can still sieze Saarbrucken............

 

[unmerged(14683)]

(...)Still, to test the validity of my complaint, let's go "Hard CORE" and see if I can still sieze Saarbrucken............

You possibly can (no penalty for river crossing/good terrain/small German garrison), but I guess marching further into the Reich will be seriously harder.

 

[Prussian_Nerd]

There used to be a separate propaganda picture pack along with the leaders pack. Now I only see "Picture Pack 0411." Has this been merged into one? It's only 11 Mbs, so it doesn't seem to be a merge. That was during the times of 0.6 btw.

 

[Semi-Lobster]

Yes it has been merged. 0411 stand for November (11) fourth (4). If you compared it to the previous 1008 packs, even with the two 1008's combined it's twice as big.

 

[saintsup]

There is a Nat Chi Naval aviation Unit trying to help me (as UK) in Varna (Bulgaria ?).

Kind of strange, isn't it ?

 

[unmerged(14683)]

There is a Nat Chi Naval aviation Unit trying to help me (as UK) in Varna (Bulgaria ?).

Kind of strange, isn't it ?

They are allied with you, right? It's variation of Italian Naval Bombers in Suwalki (Poland), trying to help Germany. Sorry, AI do really strange things with it's airforce... :wacko:

 

[McNaughton]

It seems like the AI doesn't know how to use its naval bombers. I have seen that old Australian Naval Bomber flying into Poland in 1939.

I don't know about anyone else, but I don't think that the AI uses Naval Bombers at all, other then to just sit in odd places. Maybe something to think about, eh?

 

[unmerged(14683)]

It seems like the AI doesn't know how to use its naval bombers. I have seen that old Australian Naval Bomber flying into Poland in 1939.

I don't know about anyone else, but I don't think that the AI uses Naval Bombers at all, other then to just sit in odd places. Maybe something to think about, eh?

Like removing Naval Bombers from production queues? Already done. As far as I remember, the only ones left are those in initial OOB's and in Italian/Japan AI's.

Not sure if the problem is not connected with AI cheat of airplane range - sometimes AI tries to redeploy planes and they end up "stucked" in some weird province (like mentioned Suwalki).

 

[Kevin Mc Carthy]

Like removing Naval Bombers from production queues? Already done. As far as I remember, the only ones left are those in initial OOB's and in Italian/Japan AI's.

Not sure if the problem is not connected with AI cheat of airplane range - sometimes AI tries to redeploy planes and they end up "stucked" in some weird province (like mentioned Suwalki).

Crap, I added them into the Brazil and Argentina AI files for 0.72, now I need to take them out.