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unmerged(15907)

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In EU2 I think the battle system could be improved for example if you have 30000 infantry but dented morale against 5000 infantry with full morale the 5000 infantry would stand a decent chance I agree partially how the battle relys mainly on morale but I think if a country is this numerically superior then morale shouldnt play a very big part
 

Porcius

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Except morale was a very important part of early modern battles - it still is for that matter. The number of historical instances where morale and small tech advantages defeated larger numbers is too large to recount. A 3000 to 5000 difference isn't all that big. Think Agincourt. Think Austerlitz.
 

unmerged(15907)

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Agincourt had nothing to do with morale Britain won because they had the longbow but in history 99 out of 100 times a 30000 man army would kill a 5000 man army no matter about the morale. if your fighting a battle and your that numerically superior your morale will increas not decrease
 

Lucius Sulla

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The Spanish Tercios holded and indeed won many times against very superior (in number) forces during their time of dominance (1525-1625, I would say), only because of their high morale (well, and that land tech advantage AI Spain never gets).
 

unmerged(5120)

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There could be an easy way out of this: when you're facing 1:6 odds, morale is bound to suffer...
 

Porcius

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For some reason, I read 3000 instead of 30 000....

Anyway, if the tech levels are close, a 6:1 force advantage will usually win. This is not to say that there won't be surprises - there will. But two similarly armed forces at the same tech level will usually yield victory to superior numbers.

But large American native armies and African armies need a lot of help even with a 6:1 advantage - as it should be. Likewise, the CRTs can change battles dramatically from one tech level to the next. Add a leader, a competent military monarch and a religious morale boost and you aren't exactly dealing in chump change.

If your cavalry light army is crossing a river in the snow while cut off from supplies and fighting a Reformed army led by Cromwell, a six to one lead might not be enough to save you.
 

Amadís de Gaula

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Yep, Lucius. Grán Capitán fought and won 3 wars, 3 whole wars, outnumbered 4 to one. Blas de Lezo 7 to 1 against Vernon. And the absolute world record may be for Cortés in Otumba battle: 50 to 1.

There are examples also in french and english history (Agincourt 2,7 to 1).
 

VinceV

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Jun 6, 2002
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Originally posted by Chris 2
Agincourt had nothing to do with morale Britain won because they had the longbow but in history 99 out of 100 times a 30000 man army would kill a 5000 man army no matter about the morale. if your fighting a battle and your that numerically superior your morale will increas not decrease

I certainly must disagree with your numbers here (99 out of 100). Morale is the single most important factor in a battle. Since few battles are actually 'massacres' where one side is entirely destroyed, victory is achieved when the other side decides to retreat, flee, or surrender.

In an army of 30000 fighting an army of 5000, no one in that 30000 army is keeping an acccurate count of how many people they have left in their army in comparison to the number left in their own army. If one side at the point of encounter (the front-line fighting) is severely besting the other and causes its front line units to start panicking and running for their lives, the guys at the back who have not engaged yet aren't likely to be encouraged. Panic and routs can often snowball amongst undiscipilined, unprofessional troops.

The historical examples of smaller numbers winning are quite numerous (Alexander the Great versus the Persians, Cortez versus the Aztecs) but consider this: in the battle of Bosworth, the decisive battle which ended the War of the Roses, casualties were extremely light, 100 for the Lancastrians versus 900 for the Yorkists out of armies of 10,000 and 12,000 respectively. (The Lancastrians won)

I think EU2 correctly models that as armies become more permanent, professional, and disciplined they are less likely to have mass panic and thus morale is not as decisive a factor.
 

SJG

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I doubt such a fundamental thing as the battle mechanics would change at this point in the day.

Morale, if anything is not important enough.

Combat losses in EU2 are way higher than you would see in history. In fact most EU2 battles, if they actually happened, would go down in history as massacres, because in reality one side or the other would break before losses ever got as high as they do in EU2.