New annexation rules -- have you tried them?
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In our multiplayer game excommunication doesnt seem to be working right either. It says 25% for all provinces, but costs 4. I know I used excommunication in my papal state game and it worked for all of Europe, if I remember right, it was one of my first games. I think excumminication is buggy with new beta, but I might not be understanding it correctly, in regards to culture group. I know that a core still cost me 4 from sweeden when I was the TO with excom.
Excommunication was changed in one of the beta patches. The 25% infamy only applies for same culture provinces (or maybe culture group?).
I think you no longer need to launch a Reconquer war to get 0 infamy for core provinces now, i know i took a couple of French cores in a defensive war against Burgundy after the new patch
I'm fairly sure that you could always (well, since HTTT) take cores for free on defense
Right now my view on the change is positive. As long as the annexation doesn't exceed WS it makes sense. It seems petty to not be able to annex a country you can vassalize. I'm also a little tired of the ugly borders that the old system creates.
In the past, with IN, I modded the religions file to allow full annexation in the same way as pagans are annexed, but this had unintended side effects. Such as the "seize colony" option being present at all times.
The current rule is allowing for much better looking borders. The Balkans and Eastern Europe are looking a bit nicer in my current game, I'm not involved in that area yet.
In the past, with IN, I modded the religions file to allow full annexation in the same way as pagans are annexed, but this had unintended side effects. Such as the "seize colony" option being present at all times.
The current rule is allowing for much better looking borders. The Balkans and Eastern Europe are looking a bit nicer in my current game, I'm not involved in that area yet.
Ahh, I've yet to try how it works out, but it does sound exciting! And now I can annex Norway without taking Iceland in a peace first. Yay! 
true, as the Ottos you can annex Karaman, dullakir (spelling?) and Ramazhan (spelling again?) in the war at start up for 0 bb.
I hope they add either special missions for countries in HRE whom can form nations (Holland, everyone able to form Germany....) To give once in a while a free cores for those provinces required to create the nation. Right now, the only way to create Germany for instance, is to leave HRE and deal with HRE+target then.
I like the addition that slows the blobbing inside HRE, but it just makes it impossible to form nations.
What I haven't heard much about here so far is how the changes affect the AI in your games. Have you seen wacky things happening?
Here's what I think, having played around with it just a little:
(1) there's now almost no incentive to have long-term vassals that aren't merely BB-proxies for eventual annexation. Having cranked the research math, you have to be vastly large before you're actually hurting yourself by annexing territory instead of vassalizing. Maybe this is what most people intend to do with vassals anyway, but I liked that versatility in diplomatic options. It's kinda cool to preserve the independence of states through the game which in turn become trusted allies (disciples?). Strike 1.
(2) countries disappear like nothing. I've seen this with the AI, and I've done it myself. If everybody's got roughly 30 BB points to play around with before major penalties come into play, small countries are gone. Strike 2.
(3) annexing costs 4 BB per province with no CB. That's 8 BB to annex a two-province country -- what the cost used to be for a one-province country! That's not harder! Strike 3.
Lac no like. And with what appeared to be happening in a few games I tried with the AI's super-badboy events, I think -- though I could easily be wrong -- that this rule change may not survive the beta period. (Obviously I hope so!)
By the way, are TPM (or three-province -- even four-province!) players getting annexed? I realize we're not likely to get many reports about this since people quit or reload when they lose important wars, but this seems probable now.
Here's what I think, having played around with it just a little:
(1) there's now almost no incentive to have long-term vassals that aren't merely BB-proxies for eventual annexation. Having cranked the research math, you have to be vastly large before you're actually hurting yourself by annexing territory instead of vassalizing. Maybe this is what most people intend to do with vassals anyway, but I liked that versatility in diplomatic options. It's kinda cool to preserve the independence of states through the game which in turn become trusted allies (disciples?). Strike 1.
(2) countries disappear like nothing. I've seen this with the AI, and I've done it myself. If everybody's got roughly 30 BB points to play around with before major penalties come into play, small countries are gone. Strike 2.
(3) annexing costs 4 BB per province with no CB. That's 8 BB to annex a two-province country -- what the cost used to be for a one-province country! That's not harder! Strike 3.
Lac no like. And with what appeared to be happening in a few games I tried with the AI's super-badboy events, I think -- though I could easily be wrong -- that this rule change may not survive the beta period.
(Obviously I hope so!)By the way, are TPM (or three-province -- even four-province!) players getting annexed? I realize we're not likely to get many reports about this since people quit or reload when they lose important wars, but this seems probable now.
Hmm, after playing a few years in my current game as Sweden, I must say that Europe is about to hit the fan. Austria, Brandenburg and Bavaria have all done some decent blobbing. Burgundy is as big as ever, and France is currently eating British holdings in Europe. Scotland is still alive (!) almost 50 years into the game. With the new rules, I expected them to be gone in the blink of an eye. Nope.
And the AI seems to handle the new extra BB for non-core HRE provinces quite well. That could be because the growing countries all have good leaders plus the BB reduction bonus from increased difficulty. Anyway, it's gonna be interesting to see more long-term effects of the patch. I suspect most minors gone before 1550.
And the AI seems to handle the new extra BB for non-core HRE provinces quite well. That could be because the growing countries all have good leaders plus the BB reduction bonus from increased difficulty. Anyway, it's gonna be interesting to see more long-term effects of the patch. I suspect most minors gone before 1550.
I'm holding off on the latest Beta specifically because of the mass-annexation change. It's possible I'll try installing it after later tweaks, but as implemented it certainly seems too easy.
Yep I had plans to try a pagan wc when 4.1 came out but the badboy events kinda made me reconsider.
Stab will drop to -3 except maybe if you go full slider on stab (so you have no chance to keep up in tech). -3 stab gives +6 revolt risk. Negative stab kills your legitimacy really fast too, giving additional revolt risk. And ever-rising WE means even more rebels, so revolt risk will be so high you'll even have revolts in cored own-culture own-religion provinces unless you stock up on 6 star revolt risk advisors (which then unfortunately replace infamy reduction advisors).
And don't even think about a world conversion attempt with any religion. The religious zealots will convert your provinces back faster than you can convert them to your state religion.
This is pretty much how Prussia did it historically so I don't see the problem with that.
Think about it: As the game starts your a minor principality inside a bigger but very loosely held together nation named the Holy Roman Empire. What you wish to do is create another state altogether but with the same geographical and cultural makeup. Do you think it makes sense that you should be able to operate entirely inside the existing Holy Roman Empire while doing this without anyone minding?
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Vassalizations initiated by the player occur for 3 reasons:
1) Inability to annex; vassalized for later intention of diplomatic annexation
2) Events and mission execution
3) Amusement / roleplaying / personal objectives
In practice, and leaving out (3), (2) doesn't frequently occur; most people's vassals at any given time come from (1). Even long-term vassals may simply be a legacy of a long-ago war in which the decision function was (1) and vassal retention for various reasons has now changed that to (3).
(1) almost never happens now, because only in very extreme cases is it unwise to annex over vassalization from an income cost/benefit perspective.
This also means diplomatic annexation is going to be a rarely-used, almost archaic ability.
EDIT:
The consideration of "not going over the BB limit" is still there (and part of (1)), and obviously a bit more pressing now. I don't think this compensates though in practice.
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I often vassalize nations that have provinces that are too poor to add to my nation. I haven't done the maths myself on that though (and I suspect Lac has ) so I might be doing so due to false assumptions on what 1 and 2 tax provinces would do to my country's research.
) so I might be doing so due to false assumptions on what 1 and 2 tax provinces would do to my country's research.