New Anatolian Cultures, Tags, Formables, and Improvements for the existing ones.

New Anatolian Cultures, Tags, Formables, and Improvements for the existing ones.

  • Hey, Guest! We’re glad you are a part of the Paradox Community and want to know what you think about it. Please let us know by filling out this short survey. We appreciate it!
  • Crusader Kings III Available Now!

    The realm rejoices as Paradox Interactive announces the launch of Crusader Kings III, the latest entry in the publisher’s grand strategy role-playing game franchise. Advisors may now jockey for positions of influence and adversaries should save their schemes for another day, because on this day Crusader Kings III can be purchased on Steam, the Paradox Store, and other major online retailers.


    Real Strategy Requires Cunning

Samitte

Colonel
121 Badges
Feb 2, 2012
846
1.056
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Victoria 2
After making this post regarding the Phrygians l hoped some of the changes could make it is. However, since they have not, I figured I'd up the ante and do the rest of Western and Central Anatolia as well. Especially since Paradox has not added minorities on most of this area yet, and hopefully this can be taken into account in the future when they do add in these minorities. Not including Cyprus or the Troad. At the very bottom is a rough (and quick) sketch of how this new spread of cultures would look. EDIT: Some of the sources are listed at the bottom of this first post.

First off, the Anatolians living on the coast whose culture is currently in game:

Clockwise from Cilicia: Cilicians, Pamphylians, Lycians, Carians, Lydians, Mysians, Phrygians - Paphlagonians, Cappadocians on the coast, and the Isaurians and Lycaonians living inland. The coastal areas of Asia Minor and the Hellespont were not ever at this point 100% Hellenic during the game's timeframe. The above peoples continued to live in the coastal areas, and the Hellenes lived amongst them further inland as well especially in the valleys. Furthermore, a large region around the Tauros was not primarily inhabited by these peoples at all.

These areas are where they should be present at the minimum, with the coastal areas having a larger Hellenic presence and the hinterlands being more Anatolian:

Cilician: Cilicia Trachea (Majority in the Adana plain (easternmost three provinces, and sporadically along the coast), Cilicia (whole area)
Pamphylian (Including the Sidetians, the Pamphylians still speaking a Luwian language): Pamphylia, (Whole coastal area until Syedra, and 1911) Pisidia (166, 168)
Lycian: Lycia (Coastal facing part only, not the 6 inland ones), Pamphylia (Only 162)
Carian: Caria Litoralis (Anatolian areas), Ionia (Southern half below Ephesus), Caria Mediterraneus (The western part of the valley)
Lydian: Ionia (Epesus and beyond, Ephesus should have an especially large Lydian presence as it contained one of their holiest sites) Lydia (Most of it, except for the very eastern bits) Aeolia (285)
Mysian: Mysia Abrettene (whole area), Aeolia (North of Kyme, especially Pergamon, not 260, 258), Mysia (The area around the lakes, not the Troad parts or Kyzikos), Phrygia Epictetus (western border region with Abrettene)
Phrygian: Mysia (254 specifically had a large rural Phrygian population, in general in the same areas the Mysians), Bithynia (the area around Kios and the lakes) Mysia Abrettene (The western half), Bithynia Inferior (The southern area south of the wastelands), Phrygia Epictetus (whole area), Phrygia Pacatiana (whole area), Phrygia Parorea (The 5 westernmost provinces, and 1939, 1937), Galatia (whole area), Galatia Trocmi (southern reaches, 194, 197, 202), Bithynia Superior (Southernmost two provinces), Cappadocia Saravene (western half), Cappadocia Garsauritis (sporadically up to Tyana and around the lake), Lycaonia (sporadically around the and northern plain)

-rushing past the western Pontic coast-

Paphlagonian: Paphlagonia Superior (whole area), Paphlagonia Inferior (the very western 4 provinces), Pontus (majority in the eastern three provinces), Galatia Trocmi (the northernmost provincesm and sporadically in the south), Heracleotis (sporadically in the very eastern two), Bithynia Superior (Sporadically in the very eastern few provinces, majority in 217)
Cappadocian: Cappadocia Garsauritis (sporadically especially in the towns and the regions bordering Cappadocia), Cappadocia Cataonia (in the western and northern parts mostly along the Pyramos, a few in the eastern part), Cappadocia Melitene (very sporadically, mostly in the eastern half), Cappadocia Saravene (especially the central corridor to the Pontic regions), Pontus Colopene (whole area), Pontus (whole area), Paphlagonia Inferior (on the coast up to 1815 and inland, very few in Sinope)


Wait, you forgot the Pontic culture! Nooope:

Pontic: Remove, the people of Pontus were Cappadocians. Ancient authors from before and after the game's timeframe recognised this, calling them Cappadocians or Leukosyrians. They a highly mixed group which at this point is far from its Hittite origins, having taken on Syrian and quite a lot of Persian influences as well. And looking at the sources, these areas mostly fell back into Tribal hands as soon as the invaders had left, and were not reconquered by Antigonos, or Seleukos, the Attalids were the first to establish a presence in the north, followed by the Romans in the rest of the area, with some parts only being conquered near the end of the game.

In addition, Greco-Pontic could perhaps be renamed to Pontic.

-inland Anatolians-

Lycaonian: Cappadocia Garsauritis (Whole area, especially in the plains), Lycaonia (whole area, mainly in the south around the Konya plain and the lake), Isauria (the Konya plain majority, and the plains around Derbe majority)
Isaurian: (Homonadian included, see at the end below): Isauria (the eastern half east of 1920), Cappadocia Garsauritis (1940, 1888).


Let us turn to the missing Anatolians:

Now, these people are a very interesting bunch, and they were mostly some level of autonomous in the more rugged parts. Most of these were independent for the first half of the game, with only a few being Tribal Vassals (though none at the start). They should be present as Federated Tribes, and be independent. Even Alexander did not manage to conquer most of these peoples, permanently, only the regions along the Royal Road likely remained under his control. Some of these peoples would only be brought under control near the end of the game. most famously the Homonadeis (who cannot be added at this time due to flaws in the map) only in 6 BCE:

Pisidian: Also known as Pisideis, the inhabitants of Pisidia, one of the Anatolian mountain peoples. They were the most important ones of this region. They would even expand westwards, conquering some areas of the Milyadians and Cabalians, and Phrygians, and founding the important city of Kibrya.
Present in: Pisidia (almost entire area, not in 1933, 7760, heavily present in 170), Phrygia Prorea (central valley of 1929, 1928, 1939), Pamphylia (1908, 1911, 164 primarily, but also in 165, 1910, and 1905 sporadically)

Suggested tags:
Termessia (170), the Termessians even beat Alexander's army, yet their territtory is not very large in game.
Sagalassia (1988, 1949) one of the most important Pisidian tribes, the Sagallaseis, who will capture most lands to their north and east in the coming century.
Selgia (1885, 1931, 1927, 168), the Selgeis, another important tribe who were known for their monopoly in a type of incense produced at Selgia. (yes, actual Aspendos lay in the coastal plain but the map is wrong here)
Kotennia (1911, 1908), the Kotenneis/Etenneis/Cotenneis another Pisidian tribe, likely those two built the magnificent rock-cut tombs at Etenna.
Pednelissia (167) the Pednelisseis who inhabit the central river valley (map needs some work in this area.)

Formable: A Pisidian tribe that manages to conquer the others could perhaps form Pisidia upon controlling the main lands of 170, 1949, 1885, 167, 1928, they could then form the T1 Tag: Pisidia.

Milyadian: Also known as Milyans, Milyadeis, probably the biggest losers during the Hellenistic period, would see their territory heavily colonised by many other peoples during the second half of the period.
Present in: Lycia (majority in the inland regions, small presence in the coastal ones), Pamphylia (westernmost two coastal provinces, small minority), Pisidia (majority in 170, 7760, 1933), Phrygia Parorea (majority in 1930), Phrygia Pacatiana (present in 1936, 1943 sporadically), Milyas (the four eastern provinces)

Suggested tags:
Ormelia (1935, 1961, 1959), the northern Milyadians of the Orlemeis, this area would later be heavily settled by Thracians, Pisidians and Lydians during the Attalid period.
Arycandia (160, 1993, 159, ) the Arycandeis were a Milyan tribe inhabiting the mountains directly behind the Lycia, they twisted their allegiances to whomever seemed best, owing them to the Ptolemies, Seleukids, and Mithradatids at various times. They would join the Lycian Federation once the Lycians were freed from Rhodian dominance.
Tymandia (1930, 7760, 1933), the Tymandeis who ruled the lands around the mountain)
Perminundia (1986, 171), the Permiundeis, who ruled the highland west of Termessos.

Formable: Perhaps one can unite the Milyadians, and form Milyas. Requires Milyan culture, and the main lands of: 1935, 159, 160, 1986, 1930, they can then form the T1 Tag: Milyas.

Oroandian: Also known as Oroandeis or Orondeis. The Oroandeis were quite urbanised, and at least a small community of them seemes to have lived in Attika near the end of the game as freemen, and the were granted quite a few rights by the Romans to help control this area.
Present in: Isauria (The four westernmost provinces primarily), Lycaonia (1965), Phrygia Parorea (178, 1925)

Suggested tags:
Oroandia ( 1920, 1965, 1924, ), the Oroandeis and roughly the lands they covered, however this also includes bits of the lands of the Homonadians (see below, again). The northern parts of the Oroandian lands would probably remain under control of Antiochus, considering the important road passing through them.
Ambladia (1921, 1922) the Ambladeis lived in the western part of the lands of the Oroandians.


Cabalian: The Cabalians lived in the Cabalis, a region behind Caria and bordering on the lands of the Milyans.
Present in: Milyas (The south-western 6 provinces), Lycia (1960, 1991), Caria Mediterraneus (primarily 1952, some in 1945)

Suggested tags:
Oenoandia (1991, 1990, 1960) the Oenoandeis were the Cabalians centred at the religious centre of Oenoanda, and later an important centre for the Epicurean philosophers.
Kibyratia (1956, 1958, 1997, 1957, 1953), the Kibyrateis lived around the later centre of the Kibyrateian Tetrapolis, and the nearby mountains. They would later be invaded by the Pisidians like their Milyadian neighbours.

Other: Perhaps one who unites the Cabalian lands could form Cabalis, requires Cabalian culture, and control the main Cabalian area of 1991, 1990, 1958, and 1957, they can then form the T1 Tag: Cabalis.

Cataonian: The Cataonians were the peoples of eastern Cappadocia, and Cataonia is named after them. They seem to have been on the path to being assimilated into the Cappadocian culture, which probably accelerated after a brief period of independence from Cappadocia. They seem to have conquered parts of Lesser and Greater Armenia briefly, before being crushed and absorbed back into Cappadocia. There were likely other peoples living in Cappadocia as well, but these would have also been further along being assimilated and only the Cataonians have survived into the sources.
Present in: Cappadocia Cataonia (especially the eastern half, sporadically in the western half), Cappadocia Melitene (especially the western half, a few in the eastern half), Cappadocia Saravene (only in the very eastern province), Armenia Minor (only the southern most two provinces)

Lalassian: A people often called 'Isaurian' by the Romans, but Isaurian was a common name for all the mountain peoples living in the central Tauros. They lived primarily in Rough Cilicia, and on part of the coast.
Present in: Pamphylia (1906, and especially 1784), Cilicia Trachea (1780, 1896, 1901, 1897, 1890, 1894, and sporadically in 1892 and 1887)

Suggested tags:
Lalasia (1906, 1784, 1780, 1896, 1890, 1897, 1901) The lands of the Lalaseis on the southern flanks of the Tauros.

Kennataian: The Kennetai lived in the Cilician hinterland, and were a pain in the back for those trying to control Cilicia. They often were given some form of autonomy just to stop them from raiding the Adanan plain. The state of Tarkondimotos was Kennetaian. They inhabit all around the Cilician plain, from the Amanian Gates to near Olbe.
Present in: Cilicia (majority in 1878, 1878, 1870, 1876, 1877, 1979, 1871, 1884, and spread out sporadically in the rest of the region), Cappadocia Cataonia (majority in 1979, and sporadically in the two adjacent provinces to its east and west.) Cappadocia Garsauritis (1888), Cilicia Trachea (1872, 1883, 1887, 1892, 1894)

Suggested tags:
Kennataia (1878, 1873, 1876), the lands of the Kennetai.

Morimenian: The people of (north)-western Cappadocia, living along the Halys and at lake Tatta. Our information on them, and the region they inhabit (and Cappadocia in general) is very sparse. Yet from the information Strabo gives us, we can identify they were a seperate people, living in a pastoralist region, and who were likely related to the priest-kings of Ouenasa (third in rank to the king of Cappadocia himself). By Strabo's time, they have their own district. It is likely that some of the other districts were also named after other ethnic groups or tribes within Cappadocia, but we simply do not know.
Present in: Cappadocia Garsauritis (1813, and large presence in 173 and 1954, sporadically in the adjacent areas), Cappadocia (1817, 1818, 1913, probably sporadically in the adjacent areas), Cappadocia Saravene (1820, 1923, and likely sporadically in adjacent areas), Phrygia (1811, probably sporadically in the adjacent area)

Furthermore, let us look at the Thracians (Dacian culture group):
Mariandynian: The Mariandynians are the original inhabitants of the lands of Heraclea Pontica, and those living in the lands of the Heracleotes were all enslaved and function as their slave class. In the hinterlands, free Mariandynians still hold out. The Heraclean Mariandynians would eventually gain a few minor rights, but their fate remained slavery. It is likely the Mariandynians eventually assimilated into the Paphlagonians and Bithynians, especially when the latter (who was likely their closed cultural link) conquered most of their lands. All slaves in Heraclea Pontica should be Mariandynian, and their cultural right should be set to slavery for that tag. (Note that some academics believe the Mariandynians to have been Anatolians instead - however the general consensus is that they were Anatolianised Thracians (so still Thracians).
Disclailmer: Some authors regard the Mariandynians as assimilated by the time the game starts, while others regard them and the Kaukonians as two different ethnic groups. Yet others consider them to have been the same, etc. There are other theories as well, I tried to pick a middle ground with interesting gameplay in mind.

Present in: Heracleotis (everywhere, as mostly tribal pops in the hinterland, but as slaves in Heraclea Pontica.), Bithynia Superior (in the northern provinces, especially in the valley stretching from Bithynion to Proseilemmnene which seems to have been their homeland)

Suggested tags:
Kaukonia (212, 213), the tribe of the Kaukones, probably another group of Mariandynians which whom the southern ones seem to have been in conflict from time to time. They lived in the lands of Tieion and Sisamos as well. Independent

Mariandynia (219, 233, 237, 215, 214, 220, 210, 216), the Mariandynians living away from Heracleote control in Mariandynia. This area is likely the area that was ruled by Mithradates Ktistes' uncle together with Mysia, and from which he set out to conquer Pontic Cappadocia (though it might have extended even further west to Kimiata). This area would be mostly conquered by the Bithynians about 20 years into the game historically. For now, I'd just keep them as a Settled Tribe, because of the terrain its not inconcievable they would not be under Antigonid control, so : Independent.

Bithynian: The Bithynians are currently in game as a Hellenic culture. This would have abhorred the Greeks as they consistently noted the Bithynians as non-Hellenes, usually Thracians. Bithynian should thus be moved to the Dacian group which contains other Thracian peoples as well, together with the Mariandynians. They are currently also spread too far - the Bithynians only spread throughout the region in the 280s.
Present in: Bithynia (The northern half beyond Astakos, where they were the majority in the hinterlands.), Bithynia Inferior (The northern half beyond the 7763)


Other suggested tags:
Isauria (1918, 1919, 1785) Isauria proper, the area which contained both Old and New Isauria. Independent.

Larandia (1955, 169), the lands of the Larandeis, another Isaurian group further east. Independent.

Pamphylia (164, 165, 166, 1910, 1905, 1904) Pamphylia, since it would not be directly connected to the other Antigonid lands if the above tags get added, Pamphylia, Lycia and Olbe should definitely be feudatories of the Antigonids, to represent how far away they are and how direct control would be hard.

Lycia (1992, 1995, 1998, 156, 161, 162), as with the above, the Lycians lands too were far away, and this can give a player the chance to play as the Lycians, who would see a brief moment of glory once whey were away from Rhodian occupation, and who then expanded into their hinterland.
Formable: Lycian Federation, requires Lycian culture, and control of the main regions of 1995, 160, 1998, 156, 171, 1990, 161, can form the T1 Tag: Lycian Federation, makes it some kind of republic form of government as well, and gives claims on all of Lycia, and Milyas.

Tieion (209), the Greek settlement of Tieon, which would later combine with others including Sesamos to form Amastris. It was independent of Heraclea Pontika, which is one of the reasons it managed to do this. Independent.

Sesamos (208) the Greek city of Sesamos, also independent of Heraclea Pontica, and which would be the most important element of new Amastris. Independent.

Olbe (see this post)

Furthermore, I hope this area can be looked at again in the future to flesh it out more, as it currently is represented a bit sloppy. Then the Homonadians could be fit in as well, who lived inbetween the Isaurians and Oroandians. These were the last people to be conquered of the Tauros mountain by the Romans, and deserve a spot simply for that fact.

Finally, some quick improvements before hopefully the area gets a proper overhaul in the future:

1993 Tlos to Nisa (Tlos lay in the Xanthus valley)
1991 Podalia to Oenoanda (Podalia lay east of Choma)
1990 Oenoanda to Balbura (Oenoanda lay east)
1960 Sinda to Lagbe (Sinda lay in the lake near Kibyra)
1959 Salda to Tymbrianassos (A Milyan town in this area, Salda is an old fort but thats not its Hellenistic name)
1935 Baris Pisidia to Baris ad Askania/Baris pros to Askania (Baris is not Pisidian yet, but it lay at lake Askania)
1939 Tekmoreioi to Peidra (The Tekmoreioi were a kind of cult in the region)
1930 Apollonia Paroreias to Tymandos (The city was founded by the Greeks later on (should still be its Greek localisation)

Also, does this area have way too many cities? Hell yeah, and the wrong ones as well. But thats for a later post. Furthermore, here's a rough map of the cultures. Coastal areas, facing the Aegean and Hellespont would have been mostly Hellenic Majority, with a varying amount of Anatolians present. Sardis, Ephesus, Halikarnassos, and Kaunos would have especially large communities of Anatolians, as is shown via the archaeological record (and inbetween the lines of Greek texts). And the first two, in their capacity as important religious centres, would see some numbers of pops from the other nearby groups as well.

culturemap.png

Legend:
Golden Yellow - Lycian
Orange - Carian
Green - Lydian
Yellow - Mysian
Purple - Phrygian
Dark Pink - Lycaonian
Red - Cappadocian
Brown - Paphlagonian
Nurgle Green - Cilicia
Light Purple - Pamphylian
Bone White - Isaurian

New Cultures:
Prussian Blue - Cataonian
Pinkish Red - Kennataian
Light Green - Milyadian
Light Blue - Cabalian
Salmon Pink - Pisidian
Light Pink - Morimenian
Teal - Lalasian
Dark Teal - Oroandian
Light Orange - Mariandynian

Dark Green - Bithynian (to be removed from the Hellenic group)

Black Dots - Hellenes (I don't know exactly what brand)
Pale Blue Dots - Persians

::Minorities Beyond Anatolia::

So some of these cultures lived outside of Anatolia, and the above map, as well. The below provinces are places where Anatolians were historically present:

Carian Kemetic Freemen Pops in: 929 (1), 919 (1), 515 (1), these Karians came from Egypt, where some of them settled in the past working as mecenaries. Some of them later moved to Mesopotamia, where we possibly have toponyms of Carian origins near Nippur and Borsippa. There were also some that stayed in Egypt. They were called Karo-Egyptians, indicating a level of assimilation - hence the Kemetic culture.
Carian Chaldean Freemen Pops in: 880 (1), 881 (1), an area where there are a few Carian villages noted. These Carians are called 'Babylonian Carians' in the sources - probably indicating they adopted Chaldean practices. They are different from the Karo-Egyptians.
Carian Cybelene Freemen Pops in: 416 (1), 358 (1), like the Phoenicians, the Carians were to a lesser degree known for producing purple dyes as well, with one site somewhere on Crete. There were also some Carians in Athens, enough to leave some epigraphic evidence.
Lycian Hellenic Freemen Pops in: 515 (1), part of an earlier wave of migration.
 
Last edited:
  • 9Like
  • 4Love
  • 3
Reactions:

Samitte

Colonel
121 Badges
Feb 2, 2012
846
1.056
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Victoria 2
Added the Morimenians, who I forgot, and checked a few more sources regarding the Paphlagonians, Cappadocians, 'Isaurians' (Roman name for the Kennataians, Lalassians, Homonadians and Isaurians proper), and Lycaonians.

Like always great work
Thanks!
 

Rabid

Field Marshal
39 Badges
Jan 4, 2008
3.590
1.244
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • BATTLETECH
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Shadowrun: Hong Kong
  • BATTLETECH: Flashpoint
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • 500k Club
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
This is extremely detailed, obviously I can't vouch for its accuracy, but it certainly sounds like you know what you're talking about!
 
  • 4Like
  • 1
Reactions:

Ketchup & friends

Lt. General
Jan 4, 2020
1.244
1.713
Feedback time!

In general: this would make Anatole a far more interesting region. Less Antigonid blob, more diversity.

Some of the new tags would be in two regions, which is not good for small tribes. To fix this, a few tiles should be moved to different provinces:
  • 1926 Anaboura from Phrygia Parorea to Pisidia
  • 1952 Aphrodisias from Caria Mediterranean to Milyas
  • 1924 Pappa from Isauria to Phrygia Parorea

Pontic: Remove, the people of Pontus were Cappadocians. Ancient authors from before and after the game's timeframe recognised this, calling them Cappadocians or Leukosyrians.
2 things:
  • then the Graeco-Pontic culture and heritage should be renamed to simply Pontic.
  • Pontus would start with Cappadocian culture and Cappadocia with Macedonian (and half of it are Cataonian or Morimenian. This could confuse some players. It seems better to rename that culture Leucosyrian (replacing both Pontic and Cappadocian).

priest-kings of Ouenasa (third in rank to the king of Cappadocia himself)
Could Ouenasa be made playable?

Pamphylia, Lycia and Olbe should definitely be feudatories of the Antigonids, to represent how far away they are and how direct control would be hard.
Wouldn’t Satrapies fit better? Feudatory would require making Ionian or Macedonian the primary culture.

1993 Tlos to Nisa (Tlos lay in the Xanthus valley)
Disagree on that.
Tlos was a more important city than Nysa and should be present in the game.

Same for Pinara (currently missing): a new tile needs to be added in this area.

If 1993 is renamed, two new tiles (Tlos AND Pinara) would be necessary.


Another important new tile should be Alexandria near Issus: You’ve said that it’s feasible when @Riekopo proposed it). between Issos and Myriandros. Should have a Hellenic Macedonian majority and the Alexandria modifier. (minorities?)


Added the Morimenians, who I forgot
You also forgot another culture: Phoenicians.

There were at least two Phoenician colonies in this area.
  • Phoenix in Lycia. probably not big enough for a new tile, but a few POPs in Limyra should be Canaanite Phoenician.
  • Myriandros. It should have a Canaanite Phoenician majority and needs a port.
More Phoenicians (and some Jews) were living on Cyprus (needs a major rework). Will you address Cyprus later in this thread?
 
  • 1
Reactions:

Samitte

Colonel
121 Badges
Feb 2, 2012
846
1.056
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Victoria 2
In general: this would make Anatole a far more interesting region. Less Antigonid blob, more diversity.
Thanks! It would also make it much more historically accurate. Maps often lazily colour the south-western portion of the Tauros as being part of the Achaemenid, Argead, and Antigonid empires, but it took 3 centuries of focussed Seleukid, Attalid, Galatian, and Roman efforts to tame the region.

Some of the new tags would be in two regions, which is not good for small tribes. To fix this, a few tiles should be moved to different provinces:
  • 1926 Anaboura from Phrygia Parorea to Pisidia
  • 1952 Aphrodisias from Caria Mediterranean to Milyas
  • 1924 Pappa from Isauria to Phrygia Parorea
Fine with me.

then the Graeco-Pontic culture and heritage should be renamed to simply Pontic.
Aye

Pontus would start with Cappadocian culture and Cappadocia with Macedonian (and half of it are Cataonian or Morimenian. This could confuse some players. It seems better to rename that culture Leucosyrian (replacing both Pontic and Cappadocian).
We disagree on that. The region of Pontus was known for most of the game as Pontic Cappadocia (that is, the part of Cappadocia at the Pontic), or some variant thereof. Pontus only refers to the Mithradatic state in its later stages, initually even the Mithradatic state was called Cappadocia by the Pontus.

Plus, if it confuses players, hopefully they will come away with having learned something new at the end of the day.

Could Ouenasa be made playable?
Yes, both Komana Kappadokia and Ouenasa should be playable temple-state vassals of Cappadocia.

Wouldn’t Satrapies fit better? Feudatory would require making Ionian or Macedonian the primary culture.
Yes it would.

Disagree on that.
Tlos was a more important city than Nysa and should be present in the game.

Same for Pinara (currently missing): a new tile needs to be added in this area.

If 1993 is renamed, two new tiles (Tlos AND Pinara) would be necessary.
I agree on the importance of Tlos, but Tlos was a city in the foothills of a mountain overlooking a fertile valley. Paradox should fix they map in this area, because currently it doesn't cover Tlos which lies in 1995. 1993 crosses over a mountain wasteland and covers the valleys to its south and east, so it should be called Nisa unless the map is changed. (This part of the map can then perhaps be given to Choma, and a bit to Patara but that too is a bad province since Patara lay a the very end of the Xanthus valley)

Note that this area could use some improvements, Pisidia and (and Pamphylia) were a densely populated part of Anatolia and this is not well reflected in the amount of provinces, or the pop levels. This goes for much of this part of the map - the densely populated Xanthus valley with only 5 pops, same for Perge. And those are just two examples.

Another important new tile should be Alexandria near Issus: You’ve said that it’s feasible when @Riekopo proposed it). between Issos and Myriandros. Should have a Hellenic Macedonian majority and the Alexandria modifier. (minorities?)
Aye, if its split off it should be a Macedonian majority area, with a large Cilician presence.

EDIT: Actually, would it be Macedonian majority? Where did they grow all these Macedonians, the amount of them in the former Persian empire is absolutely MENTAL. There are over 700 Macedonian pops present in the former Achaemenid lands - thats crazy and incredebly wrong. Thats more pops then in Macedonia which has 422.

So no I dont think it should be Macedonian majority, actually I dont think any places *can* be Macedonian majority. There's abstracting populations and there's just being completely wrong. 12% of the Seleukid Empire starts as Macedonian, 18% of the Antigonid Empire, and 7% of Egypt, and nearly 20% of Bactria!! Thats absolutely crazy. Even the giant Mauryan statewith its nearly 4000 pops has over 1% Macedonian pops.

You also forgot another culture: Phoenicians.

There were at least two Phoenician colonies in this area.
  • Phoenix in Lycia. probably not big enough for a new tile, but a few POPs in Limyra should be Canaanite Phoenician.
  • Myriandros. It should have a Canaanite Phoenician majority and needs a port.
More Phoenicians (and some Jews) were living on Cyprus (needs a major rework). Will you address Cyprus later in this thread?
I did not look into the Phoenicians much, but in general I planned to do a larger post regarding all the Hebrew/Jewish pops, who should not be present all around the Mediterranean and especially not on the Black Sea amongst the Sindi and Bosporans. This would include a suggestion to add Phoenician and Punic pops in areas they were present instead. This would include Cyprus since if I recall correctly it had some large-scale Phoenician habitation. I'm not so sure that Cyprus had Jewish population though, since their diaspora generally started in the 2nd century.

I'm not sure if I can use an unsubstantiated wikipedia claim for proof of Phoinix having had a Phoenician population though. There are at least two other places called Phoinix, neither of which have a Phoenician link. The BA lists Phoinix as being dated to the Roman period and afterwards, which suggests to me it was a Greek foundation. For example there are hints that another Phoinix relates to a Carian settlement which produced a purple dye - indicating that such a name does not imply Phoenician settlement.
 
Last edited:
  • 1
Reactions:

Talib123

Second Lieutenant
29 Badges
Aug 5, 2019
100
204
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Tyranny - Bastards Wound
  • Tyranny - Tales from the Tiers
  • Knights of Honor
  • Tyranny: Gold Edition
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Magicka 2
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Surviving Mars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II
his would include Cyprus since if I recall correctly it had some large-scale Phoenician habitation
You do recall correctly. Kition is found to be the waypoint for phoenicians trades looking for copper since the at least the 9th century (but maybe even 10th or 11th bce).
But unfortunatly for the games time period it seems not right to add too much phoenicians to the island. the eastern phoenicians were in decline since nebukadnezar (carthage even stopped paying tribute to tyre though I have to look when they did so). with the conquest of tyre through ATG 333 BCE the eastern phoenicians became moslty unimportant. Remember he did rebuilt the city as a makedonian one and it remained greek till the 8th century CE! so most probably there was at best a minority left at cyprus
 
Last edited:
  • 1
Reactions:

Samitte

Colonel
121 Badges
Feb 2, 2012
846
1.056
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Victoria 2
This is extremely detailed, obviously I can't vouch for its accuracy, but it certainly sounds like you know what you're talking about!
Thanks! Sadly I doubt many can, even though I'd really like some. The peoples of Anatolia are generally ignored due to standing in the shadow of the Greeks and Romans, even though there is such clear evidence they did not just survive the game's timeframe in most cases, but some even (if not briefly) thrived. The Lycians colonised their hinterland, the Pisidians too expanded west, the many Carian sanctuaries around Mylasa were renovated, and the Cappadocians under Mithradates conquered most of the region. Their languages (often one of the first things to go while assimilating) in some cases can be attested for a long time, and we can even glimpse many sub-groups that existed amongst them. Even though these peoples were so fundamental to the foundation of Greece, most people prefer to ignore them in favour of continueing to pretend the Greek (and by extension Roman) civilisation just appeared out of nowhere.
 

Ketchup & friends

Lt. General
Jan 4, 2020
1.244
1.713
Plus, if it confuses players, hopefully they will come away with having learned something new at the end of the day.
wouldn't chaging the name to Leucosyrian have the same effect?

I agree on the importance of Tlos, but Tlos was a city in the foothills of a mountain overlooking a fertile valley. Paradox should fix they map in this area, because currently it doesn't cover Tlos which lies in 1995. 1993 crosses over a mountain wasteland and covers the valleys to its south and east, so it should be called Nisa unless the map is changed. (This part of the map can then perhaps be given to Choma, and a bit to Patara but that too is a bad province since Patara lay a the very end of the Xanthus valley)
OK, Xanthos tile needs to be split.
The six major cities of Lycia (Xanthos, Patara, Pinara, Olympos, Myra, and Tlos) should all be on the map and neccesary to form the Lycian Federation.

EDIT: Actually, would it be Macedonian majority? Where did they grow all these Macedonians, the amount of them in the former Persian empire is absolutely MENTAL. There are over 700 Macedonian pops present in the former Achaemenid lands - thats crazy and incredebly wrong. Thats more pops then in Macedonia which has 422.

So no I dont think it should be Macedonian majority, actually I dont think any places *can* be Macedonian majority. There's abstracting populations and there's just being completely wrong. 12% of the Seleukid Empire starts as Macedonian, 18% of the Antigonid Empire, and 7% of Egypt, and nearly 20% of Bactria!! Thats absolutely crazy. Even the giant Mauryan statewith its nearly 4000 pops has over 1% Macedonian pops.
Interesting. This goes far beyond Anatolia. You should probably adress it (+solution!) in the Alexandrias Thread. (Gordion Thread is @Samitte 's own might be better?)

But unfortunatly for the games time period it seems not right to add too much phoenicians to the island. the eastern phoenicians were in decline since nebukadnezar (carthage even stopped paying tribute to tyre though I have to look when they did so). with the conquest of tyre through ATG 333 BCE the eastern phoenicians became moslty unimportant. Remember he did rebuilt the city as a makedonian one and it remained greek till the 8th century CE! so most probably there was at best a minority left at cyprus
Kition was ruled by a phoenician dynsaty and had Canaanite temples until Ptolemy's invasion in 312 BCE. We have some more suggestions on Cyprus, the question is where should I post it?, here or in our thread on Greek minors in Asia and the Aegean. (my group is split on that, help us decide PLZ!!!)
 

Samitte

Colonel
121 Badges
Feb 2, 2012
846
1.056
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Victoria 2
wouldn't chaging the name to Leucosyrian have the same effect?
The term Leukosyri would add another layer of confusion with the presence of Assyrians, and the Leucosyrians not being in the Mesopotamian culture group.

Tough in my opinion, Syrians should be added in as well - since the ancients distinguished between the Aramaics, (Western-)Syrians, (Eastern-)Assyrians, with the Syrians living south of the Aramaics, but thats another post. But that would create 3 -syrian groups. The Leucosyrians at least had a good alternative - Cappadocians. (This dropping of the A- the Greeks did with the western Amardians and Asagartians as well, which were known as the Mardians and Sagartians)

OK, Xanthos tile needs to be split.
The six major cities of Lycia (Xanthos, Patara, Pinara, Olympos, Myra, and Tlos) should all be on the map and neccesary to form the Lycian Federation.
Agreed.

Interesting. This goes far beyond Anatolia. You should probably adress it (+solution!) in the Alexandrias Thread. (Gordion Thread is @Samitte 's own might be better?)
Yeah, its a topic for another day, but I did add an extra little bit to the first post with a few minorities living beyond the map that are historically attested.

the question is where should I post it?, here or in our thread on Greek minors in Asia and the Aegean. (my group is split on that, help us decide PLZ!!!)
Ideally, Paradox should open a 'Short/Small Setup fixes thread', a bit like your Greek Minors improvement post. It could give them a large basis of improvements regarding the historical setup, especially in areas that rely on specialist knowledge. Though preferably moderated so they can compile a list for themselves.
 
  • 1
Reactions:

Samitte

Colonel
121 Badges
Feb 2, 2012
846
1.056
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Victoria 2
Added an extra bit on cities and roads, and ports:

Most of the places that are cities in game in this region are much later foundations in this area, specifically to control the native peoples. Others are Christian era centres, while some important towns of the Hellenistic period are missing. The choice of cities in this region seems entire based on the Digital Atlas of the Roman Empire, with a few added for balance. But DARE's map is essentially the situation by Late Antiquity, not during the Hellenistic era. Most of this could have been remedied with a quick google search, which would also have given more appropriate names for many - though that doesn't work as well for inland Anatolia. Most notably, it shows cities that were destroyed as massive, and places that used to be significant as small towns because they declined over the time period. DARE also excludes almost everything that doesn't have a Greek or Roman name (a problem it inherited from the Barrington Atlas).

These are in the regions of Cappadocia, Asia, Cilicia (excluding Cilicia), Phrygia, and Bithynia (excluding the western portions around Bithynia and Heraclea Pontica)

In general: Inland Mysia (called Mysia Abrettene in game) was mostly forested mountains and hills inhabited by pastoralist groups. The Pamphylian and Lycian hinterlands were populous, but with few cities. The coastal regions were densely settled on the other hand. Cilicia Trachea, Isauria, Phrygia Parorea, Phrygia, Cappadocia Saravene, were mostly pastoralist and/or tribal regions. Pontic Cappadocia had a bunch of cities around its fertile river valleys.


Reasons:
Colonies founded specifically to control the natives of the Tauros by Galatians, Attalids, Seleukids, or Romans:
1928 (Antiokheia in Pisidia), 1925 (Neapolis), 1930 (Apollonia Paroreias), 1933 (Sidera), 1784 (Sbide), 179 (Philomelion), 1920 (Ouasada), 169 (Laranda), 1919 (Isaura Nea)

Cities only very late into the game or which were unimportant small towns/villages during the entire timeframe, only becoming important in the Christian era:
1988 (Kremna), 1958 (Kibyra), 1956 (Tabai), 1931 (Adada), 1896 (Ninika), 1890 ('Tracheia' thats not even a place here, ever), 1901 (Anemourion), 1962 (Nysa), 304 (Hyssa), 307 (Bagis), 308 (Blaundos), 250 (Helge), 254 (Zeleia), 245 (Kios), 165 (Olbia Pamphylias), 188 (Pessinous), 1825 (Taouion), 185 (Ipsos), 1932 (Euaissa), 1839 (Sebastopolis), 1770 (Satala), 1782 (Megalossos), 1893 (Ariaratheia), 237 (Embolos), 219 (Bithynion)

Cities that were destroyed/in ruins, or mostly deserted:
287 (Smyrna, took a few decades of rebuilding), 189 (Gordion completely declined since Alexander's conquest), 1836 (Destroyed for centuries)

Map mistakes (cities that were cities, but due to a mistake on the map don't lie in this area:
1993 (Tlos doesnt lie here), 1799 (Mazaka is Eusebeia, they are exactly the same place)


Historically important cities at the start of the game, which should be added:

166 (Perge and Sillyon), 1995 (Xanthos, Tlos, Pinara), 161 (Limyra and Gagai), 1998 (Patara, Phellos), 164 (Phaselis), 160 (Arykanda), 1986 (Pogla Comama, Permiounda), 168 (Apendos), 1936 (Kelainai), 1941 (Synnada), 1875 (Kastabala), 1877 (Anazarbos), 1977 (Mylasa), 286 (Chois), 274 (Thyateira), 1966 (Tralleis), 256 (Lampsakos), 255 (Parion), 167 (Pednelissos), 795 (Rhossos and Myriandros + an Alexandreia), 1880 (Mopsouhestia), 302 (Kadoi), 315 (Dorylaion), 309 (Akmonai), 184 (Dokimeion), 1834 (Zela), 1790 (Komana Pontika), 1792 (Kabeira), 7845 (Ani-Kamakh), 1843 (Kamisa),


In addition, the following ports should be added or removed, there might be more:

1998 Patara the port of the Xanthus valley, also contains the other important port of Antiphellos
1910 Side, the most important port of the region for centuries
164 Phaselis, an important port in the area
795 Myriandros, contained the important port of Rhossos
1883 Tarsos, not on the sea, but was an important port nontheless, river could perhaps go a bit inland to indicate this
255, Parion, important port on the Hellespont
287, Smyrna, was and after rebuilding became an important port again.
1889, Magarsa, which was the port of Mallos, which itself did not have a port until much later

165 Olbia/Attaleia, not an important port compared to Side which was the main port of the region, until centuries later Side declined
1874 Oeniandos (Epiphaneia) what is this province even? But it was not a port
252 Kyzikos was not a port city
1881 Mallos, the port of Mallos was province 1889 Magarsa.

On roads:

The roads could use a few improvements. Note that there is no total consensus on the exact road, this is based on the combined routes as put forward by various academics and compiled in Pre- and Early-Roman Roads of Asia Minor, The Persian Royal Road in Iran: Journal of the British Institute of Persian Studies, Vol 36, 1998.

From Gordion, 189 > 188 > 328 (this is correct in game as well) > 183 > 184 (where it merges at Prymenessos)

The southern road currently goes through the tribal lands of the Tauros, instead it went north after Ikonion, 1934 > 177 >178 > 179 > 182 > 184, where the two routes unite and split again:

One south via 1941 > 1937 > 1936 and continueing from there as in game.
One west via 185 > 187 > 309 > 307 > 300 and continueing as in game.

There was also a short route between 1947 > 293 > 292 as well.



The route from the Zeugma currently flows via the Syrian gates, but it went via the Amanian gates through Kastabala:
Zeugma 810 > 811 > 812 > 1870 > 1875 > 1874 (though this province is very badly made, Kastabala should connect to Mopsouhestia) > 1880 continueing as in game.



The route between Melitene and Mazaka:
From Komana Kappadocia, 172 > 1802 > 1796 where its believed to have split, one route going north (as in game), the other going south and west.

Mazaka/Eusebeia, 1796 > 1799 > 1794, where it splits:

Western route: 1794 > 205 > 1954 > 173 > 1971 > 174 > 177 where it merges with the route from Ikonion.

Southern route: 1794 > 1900 > 1951 where it joins the main route connecting Mazaka to the important commercial centre of Tyana

And finally the route between Amid and Melitene.
856 > 878 > 859 > 858 > 1866 > 1855 > 1854, Melitene



The route from Podanos currently runs inbetween the two routes in this area, the above route along lake Tatta from Eusebeia/Mazaka to Soatra, and the route via Kybystra. These routes are centred on Tyana, a major regional commercial centre, which should connect to the Tatta route, to Mazaka, to Kybystra and Podanos.

The northern route: Podanos, 1888 > 1951 > 1978 > 173 where it continues on the above route from Mazaka/Eusebeia to 177.

Inbetween these two is a small connection : Tyana, 1951 > 1940, where it continues on the southern route:

the southern route: Podanos, 1888 > 1951 > 1940 > 1950 > 1975 > 1934, Ikonion.
 
Last edited:
  • 1
Reactions:

Samitte

Colonel
121 Badges
Feb 2, 2012
846
1.056
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Victoria 2
Updated the above posts to include Bithynia (not Cyprus), two new cultures, five new tags, and some border changes to Paphlagonia and Heraclea Pontica. This would result in Heraclea Pontica becoming a 2 province power - However as is the case with Trapezous, its current size is severely ahistorical. Heraclea Pontica was an entirely coastal power at this point, barely controling province 238 beyond its capital.

Added Embolos and Bithynion to the list of cities to remove. Embolos was never a city by the looks of it, Bithynion, as its name might suggest, is related to the later conquest of the area by the Bithynians.

Added the Mariandynians and a suggestion to 'fix' the Bithynians, a people whom the Greeks were very convinced were not Greek, and Bithynian Greeks are more of an Imperial period thing. Suggest giving Heraclea Pontica and the other Bithynian culture states (Greco-)Pontic, or Propontic culture. (Of course not actual Bithynia.)

I advocate putting both the Mariandynians and Bithynians in the Dacian culture group, and renaming it Daco-Thracian or Thraco-Dacian. Before anyone asks, no, the Phrygians and Mysians do not belong to that group, culturally they were very much Anatolian.

The below four tags would result in Heraclea Pontica and Paphlagonia losing some territories. However, Heraclea Pontica's was an entirely coastal power, whose territory extended from somewhere up to the Sangarios (Dia province), but not into the valleys to its south. To its north it certainly did not control Tieion and Sesamos, which were independent polities that united against Heraclea Pontica under Amastris.

Added the tags of Kaukonia, Sisamos, Tieion, and Mariandynia.
 
  • 1
Reactions:

Ketchup & friends

Lt. General
Jan 4, 2020
1.244
1.713
Since you've left out Cyprus, here are OUR suggestions to improve it:
What's wrong:
Currently this island has 10 provinces (2 were added in 1.2). There are some problems. obvious when compared to Sicily, Sardinia and Corsica:
  • No hills terrain tiles in eastern areas, despite the visuals and other PDX games making norther/eastern Cyprus a hill tile.
  • 5 important cities are still missing (Kourion, Ledra, Idalion, Marion and Kyrenia)
  • the Aphrodite sanctuary is in the wrong place (Paphos instead of Palaipaphos).
  • Paphos was NOT the provincial capital in 304 BC.
  • only 1 tile is landlocked (Tamassos), all others are accessible form sea. This makes invasions easy (land and quickly overrun the whole island)
  • no impassable terrain (means a campaign here is boring).
  • only 2 ports, none on the Mare Lycium and Canalis Cypris tiles → fleets have to sail longer, can’t retreat .
  • almost all POPs are hellenic Cypriot, no Phoenicians despite their historical mpresence.
  • An important character is missing for no apparent reason, his wife starts unmarried.

Proposed improvements:
Add 4 new settlements. They all were important:

- Idalion (lat. Idalium, Assyrian: Ed-di-al). Tthe corners of Tamassos, Kition and Amassous. Remained important in the Hellenistic age and was aparently the place where Aphrodite met Adonis. It should produce base metals AND have the Copper Mines of Cyprus modifier. Holy site for Adonis (NEW Hellenic deity)

- Ledra or Ledrae or Leucotheon ( lowland bits of Tamassos and Lapethos. Reason to add it: would add farmland and one more food tradegood to Cyprus and it’s the site of the modern-day capital of Cyprus (these guys on reddit will love it). Should have farmland terrain (representing the most rural area on the island) and a food tradegood.

- Marion (northern bit of Paphos, western bits of Soloi). Reason to add it: While destroyed in 312 BC, but the city of Arsinoe was founded in 270 BC on this site. Should produce base metals AND have the Copper Mines of Cyprus modifier. Port on the Mare Lycium tile. 1 or 2 pops representing the destruction in 312 BC.

- Kyrenia: northern half of Chythroi (split at the hills range). Reason to add it: most important harbour city on the north coat of Cyprus. Should have hills terrain, a port, possibly a pirate heaven as well (because the Kyrenia ship was apparently sunk by pirates)

After the lowland areas of Tamassos split to Idalion and Ledrai, the rump tile could be changed to mountain terrain

make the mountains in the soutwest an impassable tile. this would separate the western coast from the rest of the island. If someone invades from the west, they’d have to move the army around the mountains.

Perhaps add a Barbarian hotspot in the Troodos Mountains representing the refugees and deserters?

These changes should make Cyprus a much more interesting battleground for invasions.


Paphos, Palaipaphos and Kurion:

We have two possible solutions for this part: which one would you prefer?

a. Rename Palaipaphos to Kourion (lat. Curium).

Advantages:
  • this would require less work for the devs.
  • Would keep Cyprus at 14 tiles instead of 15 if other changes are implemented (a more reasonable number).
b. split the eastern half of Palaipaphos as new tile: Kourion. Move the Holy site of Aphrodite to Palaipaphos.

Advantages:
  • Palaipaphos was important.
  • This would make the map more granular.

Flavour:
Phoenician:

Add Canaanite Phoenicians:
  • about half of Kition (it was a Phoenician kingdom until 312 BC)
  • 1 or 2 in Themessos and Idalion (were owned by Kition)
  • 1 in Lapethos and Kyrenia these had earleir but less important Phoenician settlements.

Add a decision to restore the sanctuary of Herakles-Melqart in Kition.

Jewish:
Add 1 Jewish Hebrew in Kition.
If majority becomes Hebrew, Jewish, or It’s owned by a Hebrew country, change name to Kittim.
If the Cyprus formable country has Jewish religion or Hebrew culture, it should be called Kittim (like Antigonids, Seleukids and Maurya if their dynasty changes)


Paphos was NOT the capital of Cyprus until Ptolemaic Egypt reconquered Cyprus from the Antigonids. They used Salamis as their Administrative centre on Cyprus. The provincial capital should be Salamis (but the name should be changed)


Rename Salamis to Salamis Kyprou (lat. Salamis Cyprianum) Reason: distinguish it from Salamis island in Attica that was added later. (Like Soloi Kyprou and Soloi)


Eunostos, son of Pasikrates was the last king of Soloi and husband of Eirene Thaisid, daughter of Ptloemy I.
He was an important local ally of Ptolemy until the Antigonid invasion of Cyprus in 306 BC.
He should be in the game, married to his historical wife and exiled in Egypt (perhaps as a foreign citizen).

If Egypt takes back Cyprus, they should get an event deciding how to rule the island (showing Eunostos Pasikratid and Eirene on the right):
  • Keep it as an ordinary province (capital moves to Paphos, Marion becomes a city and is renamed Arsinoe. Eunostos, Eirene, and all of their friends lose much loyalty.)
  • Give All of Cyprus to Eunostos (whole Cyprus becomes a client state with Soloi Kyprou as capital ruled by Eunostos. He, Eirene and any children they have move to the new country, it gets a high opinion boost).
  • give him only Soloi Kyprou (it becomes a city state feudatory, Eunostos, Eirene and their children move there).
The first option would be the historical one, but if Eunostos and Eirene acquired powerful friends, this could destabilise Egypt, even triggering a civil war.


Leukosyri would add another layer of confusion with the presence of Assyrians, and the Leucosyrians
Were these three closely related? If yes, a new Syrian culture group should be added. Otherwise it wouldn't be more confusing than Siculian and Siceliote (same area but different culture groups). Or the spelling Leucosyri could be used.

In addition, the following ports should be added or removed, there might be more:
Astakos should get a port too.

287 (Smyrna, took a few decades of rebuilding)
Disagree, the rebuild already started before 204 BC. We've updated our list of proposed modifiers wit one for Smyrna.

Suggest giving Heraclea Pontica and the other Bithynian culture states (Greco-)Pontic, or Propontic culture. (Of course not actual Bithynia.)
If Bithynian is moved to Dacian group, it would for a natural wedge between these two.
then, Heraclea Pontica, and all greek minorst east of them should get Pontic culture, but Astakos, Calchedon, Kios and Kyzikos become Propontic.
The Bityhnian heritage should be renamed Proponic.

slightly off-topic but related to this:
Propontic POPs in Odrysia should be replaced with Macedonian.
Propontic
POPs on Thrace's balck sea coast should be changed to NON-integrated Bosporan culture (like Istros) to reflect their rebellions against Lysimachos.
 
  • 1
Reactions:

Samitte

Colonel
121 Badges
Feb 2, 2012
846
1.056
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Victoria 2
Astakos should get a port too.
Looks like a good spot for a port.

Were these three closely related? If yes, a new Syrian culture group should be added. Otherwise it wouldn't be more confusing than Siculian and Siceliote (same area but different culture groups). Or the spelling Leucosyri could be used.
The Leucosyri/Leukosyroi/Leukosyrians/Leucosyrians are all the same thing. The Cappadocians should just be called Cappadocians - living from the Pontus to the Tauros.
 

Samitte

Colonel
121 Badges
Feb 2, 2012
846
1.056
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Victoria 2
Why shouldn't the Leucosyrians get an own culture then?
Because they are long gone, they likely were a remnant of the Assyrian merchant colonies in the Hittite empire dating back to the Bronze Age. However, even well before the game's timeframe the people of Cappadocia were called Cappadocians - its just that the Greeks were a bit slow to catch up and kept referring to the local Anatolians as '(White) Syrians'.
 
  • 1
Reactions:

LevolutionXIV

Private
16 Badges
Oct 25, 2018
12
8
27
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife Pre-Order
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Cities: Skylines - Campus
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
I read your post and as you wrote I totally agreed with you all of these Anatolian culture groups.
I haven't got enough information as like as you ( just read a couple of books of Cevat Şakir Kabaağaçlı aka The Fisherman of Halicarnassus). Anatolia should be more detailed in my opinion.
I think that the game is too greek-roman history thesis ( yeah I know the game's name is Imperator : Rome ) but this shouldn't mean manipulating the history by little touches.
My interest in Ancient History comes by Rome:Total War which made a place in my brain by misdirection. That's why I totally agreed with you again. Nice topic and would love to see in that game as well.
 
  • 1
Reactions:

Ketchup & friends

Lt. General
Jan 4, 2020
1.244
1.713
Ideally, Paradox should open a 'Short/Small Setup fixes thread', a bit like your Greek Minors improvement post. It could give them a large basis of improvements regarding the historical setup, especially in areas that rely on specialist knowledge. Though preferably moderated so they can compile a list for themselves.
While it's not official, here's our most recent proposal on cultures not already covered in other thread (like this one)
 

rickinator9

Diadochi King
66 Badges
Mar 14, 2012
906
64
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Magicka
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Rome Gold
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • A Game of Dwarves
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Cities in Motion
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Darkest Hour
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
This is a great and informative post. I will likely be using this information for our 275 BC CK3 mod and this post will increase the depth of the cultural situation in Anatolia.

I am a bit confused on the Cappadocians. Do we have any information on what their language was like or what it was influenced by? We'd like to give them some culturally appropriate title names at some point.