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Achanei

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Tried Friesland->Netherlands run.

It seems that first idea should be military, since you want exploration as a second idea and you need a military one to compete with France.

I disagree. Going military first is hardly sensible in any game, considering that mil tech 4, 6, 7 and 8 give a tactics boost and getting those ahead of time gives you a way bigger advantage than a few points into any military idea. Moreover, even quantity won't be enough to make a difference against the big targets (burgundy, france, austria, kalmar union denmark) as long as you sit on 3 provinces or so, and once you are done eating burgundry, you should be accessing a second idea group.
I'd go exploration first for colonizing or trade for european expansion (trade gives more traders and more naval FL for more light ships for more money).

It is quite possible to fight burgundry without allying france though, they come to blows on their own, and thats when you jump in with your 10k and wipe their stack/kill their mercs and take stuff. Allying france is a solid strat though, you just need contingencies because they probably will turn on you at some point. conquering england & moving capital to london seems like a good defense against france, even without going colonial you will have naval superiority with the dutch NIs.
 

Achanei

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As the first NI I would recommend Administrative, as said quantity will not help and you have to rely on mercenaries.

Admin is a good first pick too, though I find it depends on admin MP income whether you can afford it without delaying adm 7 - a good admin ruler would allow it, definitely. On the other hand, if you just take the first two adm ideas and then put the MP in tech again, that should probably work fine as well.
 

Denkt

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As for ideas I would chose trade over colonization like you could say Neatherlands did historicly.
So:
Trade, exploration for explorers (will be dropped later so only pick for explorers)
Expansion mainly for cb for trade companies and protactorates.
Quality for 20% trade efficiency policy.
Maritime for bigger and better navy (Naval tradition is very important for trade steering).

My trade focused Norway could make more money from trade then any other country income and then I did only like control little of world trade, and had did extreamly limited conquest (maybe 20-30 provinces gained from conquest).
So rich that I could have one of the largest navies while having colonies, good advisors, full merc armies over force limit, navy also over fl while building manufactories many times a year.
 

TheMeInTeam

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If you NF military, you can easily stay ahead of years and take military ideas. Friesland in particular has good control over that.

However, I like trade the most for a first idea right now. There's a lot of early trade money available and it spikes your naval FL more initially than any of the 25% ideas.

conquering england & moving capital to london seems like a good defense against france

If you do that and have trade ideas with the Dutch NIs, the income should be gross, and Friesland in particular with the ADM republic's -.2 LA will push them into large force limits early too, with an easy CB on Norway --> Denmark in Orkney allowing a superior navy to boost you even more.

IMO you can just grab exploration later and take the CNs. You can blow up the Iberians at sea easily with a trade + conquer England strategy, allowing CNs to change hands rapidly.

As the first NI I would recommend Administrative, as said quantity will not help and you have to rely on mercenaries.

IMO quantity is a reasonable 2nd or 3rd pick, but not the best first pick though it wouldn't be terrible. Quantity *will* help, because you will have the money to front mercs at the eventually boosted FL, but more importantly it's a military idea that gives you naval FL and -power cost on trade buildings.

So rich that I could have one of the largest navies while having colonies, good advisors, full merc armies over force limit, navy also over fl while building manufactories many times a year.

There comes a point where other things than money give more utility, once you're swimming in cash. You probably don't need ALL of those things :p. I'd recommend not getting expansion (use one of those missions to pick up India and later into Majapahit territory), maybe exploration over maritime (maybe not), and in the place of expansion grab religious + reformed faith. Religious will let you continue conquests in Asia once you have the missions done, but it also lets you feed provinces to your CNs for 0 DIP, meaning your monarch point overhead from conquering into CNs in the new world is pretty low...and this CB isn't exactly terrible back home for a while either.
 

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try to monopolize trade from Indonesia. steer it to the cape and collect. I'm making 500 a month from it. you don't need to conquer anymore then the low countries really. just build arsenals to raise your force limit and supplement it with mercenaries.
 

Tijean

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I was playing with Utrech->Netherland. Utrech is mutch easier because they have an easy reconquest. Friesland is hard because it is harder to get 2 extra province and you get mutch more AE. The biggest down point of Utrech is actually the archbishop. Terrible governement form. Ruler start young and i only got bad ruler.
1,8 is really hard for Netherland. The new AE is really hard for Netherland. All the province you need are rich and everyone around are going to hate you.
The unique gouvernement for the Netherland is not that great. Would almost prefer a merchant republic.

Personnaly i'm still allied with France since Bavaria still hold a part of Burgundy.
I'm focusing on my colony but i have a hard time to conquert land even outside europe.

Ideas :
Exploration
Quantity
Expansion
 

Sandmann

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Easiest and best bonuses (Lübeck Krantor) comes from forming Netherlands as the Hansa tho. It's very easy, all you need to do is to take enough dutch provinces to culture shift, provinces which you need anyway to form the Netherlands.
 

aqvamare

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play as burgundy, stay burgundy

burgundy ideas > netherland ideas
burgundy emporship with switch to republic (after you cannot loose it) with the right national ideas > than netherland goverment
 

slv

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I disagree. Going military first is hardly sensible in any game, considering that mil tech 4, 6, 7 and 8 give a tactics boost and getting those ahead of time gives you a way bigger advantage than a few points into any military idea. Moreover, even quantity won't be enough to make a difference against the big targets (burgundy, france, austria, kalmar union denmark) as long as you sit on 3 provinces or so, and once you are done eating burgundry, you should be accessing a second idea group.
I'd go exploration first for colonizing or trade for european expansion (trade gives more traders and more naval FL for more light ships for more money).
Usually I agree with you (never pick military idea first as most nations), but Friesland is republic. If you put your focus on military an reelect 114 rulers you will be able to be ahead of military tech AND take a couple of ideas (just two from defensive or one from offensive or two from plutocratic significantly will improve your army).

Exploration first is somewhat weird. Your range is not enough to colonise anything before diptech 7. And even then you probably need colonial range guy.
 

TheMeInTeam

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Usually I agree with you (never pick military idea first as most nations), but Friesland is republic. If you put your focus on military an reelect 114 rulers you will be able to be ahead of military tech AND take a couple of ideas (just two from defensive or one from offensive or two from plutocratic significantly will improve your army).

Exploration first is somewhat weird. Your range is not enough to colonise anything before diptech 7. And even then you probably need colonial range guy.

IIRC with DIP 7 and exploration 3 you can reach Beothuk in NA, it was true last patch at least. They reworked trade winds I think so maybe not now, but you can easily do it at DIP 7 if you hit England/Ireland, and considering how easy it is to ally France + more I don't see why you shouldn't, but it's not nearly as strong as just getting trade first.
 

yerm

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IIRC with DIP 7 and exploration 3 you can reach Beothuk in NA, it was true last patch at least. They reworked trade winds I think so maybe not now, but you can easily do it at DIP 7 if you hit England/Ireland, and considering how easy it is to ally France + more I don't see why you shouldn't, but it's not nearly as strong as just getting trade first.

To add to this, if you're trying to colonize as top priority over all else, getting exploration first and to 3, and THEN teching up dip to 7, is certainly faster than paying standard price for dip and then grabbing exploration. The same rules about a military candidate and focus apply to diplomatic, if you wanted to go that route. You also can explore at your leisure well before actually sending colonists, and get the prestige for it when it matters more.
 

slv

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To add to this, if you're trying to colonize as top priority over all else, getting exploration first and to 3, and THEN teching up dip to 7, is certainly faster than paying standard price for dip and then grabbing exploration. The same rules about a military candidate and focus apply to diplomatic, if you wanted to go that route. You also can explore at your leisure well before actually sending colonists, and get the prestige for it when it matters more.
But the thing is, if you need to wait till having diplotech 7, you might as well wait to have admintech 7 and pick exploration as your second idea.
 

yerm

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But the thing is, if you need to wait till having diplotech 7, you might as well wait to have admintech 7 and pick exploration as your second idea.

If you do this, you are paying more for the dip tech because you lack both the reductions for increase over time and having diplo ideas. Going exploration first saves you overall diplo points and allows you to send an explorer way earlier. Gong military first means you get dip 7 exp 3 much slower, and unless you are likewise focused on military instead of dip, will slow your military tech down. If you go admin first, you again have to either focus it or slow how long it takes you to get admin 7 plus admin ideas. The single fastest way to colonize, if that is your goal, is obviously going to be dip national focus, but also the dip idea group before any tech is taken there.
 

TheMeInTeam

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But the thing is, if you need to wait till having diplotech 7, you might as well wait to have admintech 7 and pick exploration as your second idea.

You don't have to do that though. You can declare on England, which will bring in Portugal, which will lose to France. As it happens, Portugal has provinces that can reach the new world at DIP 3 ;).

I still don't think it's as good as trade though, or even close. Colonies take a lot longer to pay off than more merchants, more trade efficiency/power, and more naval FL from having the merchants, not to mention the extra cash and naval FL let you punch way above your weight at sea early and compete with some of the stronger navies if you have a few good provinces. If you can defeat England at sea, you can conquer England; such is also the case with the Danish region. Nothing colonies can do in the first 100-150 years will match it.
 

slv

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Also I am not sure if I want to switch to Dutch republic. Marriages are nice, but you will have -0.1 autonomy instead of -0.2. And -5 years of nationalism from adminrepublic is huge.
 

Sjakie

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Also I am not sure if I want to switch to Dutch republic. Marriages are nice, but you will have -0.1 autonomy instead of -0.2. And -5 years of nationalism from adminrepublic is huge.

It's almost useless in nearly all cases and when you're playing as the Netherlands it's definitely completely useless, unless you're doing some very strange things.
 

TheMeInTeam

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It's almost useless in nearly all cases and when you're playing as the Netherlands it's definitely completely useless, unless you're doing some very strange things.

It's never completely useless, especially if you're conquering off-culture stuff w/o humanist, but certainly -.2 LA is the more attractive aspect of the government along with the early money boost.
 

Redwallzyl

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this is my current game. notice the income and the savings. and all without conquering outside the low countries. i just hired 150 mercenaries and kicked Frances butt for their Indonesian colonies without going negative in income. i have 500 trade ships working to steer all the trade from Indonesian across to Zimbabwe to the cape where i collect it all. another fleet takes half the income from the English channel as well. i only control one island and Guiana in the Americas. i used the 80 years war start so Spain is insanity strong but i have managed to beat them several times. its just an issue of removing Spain and Portugal protectorates and brought figure out how to steer trade to the channel without it getting stolen by Spain. all the independent Indonesian states are my protectorates and I'm allied with Austria as Britain broke there alliance with me due to "wants your provenances" in Indonesia.

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Achanei

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Usually I agree with you (never pick military idea first as most nations), but Friesland is republic. If you put your focus on military an reelect 114 rulers you will be able to be ahead of military tech AND take a couple of ideas (just two from defensive or one from offensive or two from plutocratic significantly will improve your army).

Exploration first is somewhat weird. Your range is not enough to colonise anything before diptech 7. And even then you probably need colonial range guy.

yeah, I was not accounting for the republic, mil idea first is probably doable like that. in terms of punching power, trade might be best though.

on the exploration first, its only woth picking if you really commit to colonizing, I posted in this thread earlier that you can easily no-CB on granada piggybacking on castile's reconquest and snatch yourself a province. as TMIT pointed out, portugal would work even without a stab hit. For both you'll want france allied, otherwise it seems impossible to win/keep the province because portugal and castile will hate you. It gives you an edge because you can both delay castile's and portugals colonization progress and get earlier to africa and america. this is less important with the higher province count, but there are still CoTs the AI might grab before you get there otherwise.