Netherlands revolt

[Zagys]

In all the AAR's I've read in which the Netherlands revolt against Spain, it seems that a Dutch victory is guaranteed as the Spanish are quickly and easily crushed. It appears to be pointless for the Spanish to even bother wasting the resources and manpower fighting the Dutch, but instead make peace with them as soon as possible. Although it should be difficult, shouldn't it at least be possible for the Spanish to put down the revolt, at least temporarily?

On a similar note, from what I've read in the AAR's the Dutch armies are rediculously huge. Perhaps I'm mistaken, but I always thought that the Netherlands became powerful because of their extremely efficient and advanced economy and military organization, not their vast hordes.

[This message has been edited by Zagys (edited 16-08-2000).]

 

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At the beginning of the beta-test, Netherlands nearly never appeared, so a special rebellion factor was implemented for Netherlands to increase the chance of seeing it appear.
However, lots of work has been done to balance it. At the beginning, the benefits were so huge that Netherlands could crush anything within range of its armies (some AARs date back from this period).
Now, Netherlands' independence wars are more weighted but things can still be improved a bit.
If it is not, then as Spain, I would not even bother to try to hold Netherland, but would search to minimize the number of provinces they get.

 

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That was obviously shocking to see Dutch armies get all over France with armies able to conquer part of it unopposed (even if France was not at its best in the AAR). If I'm not wrong, the Netherlands never waged large scale war in Europe, neither annexed little german principalities around its eastern border nor drive south... Any Dutch around to help us in history details of the orange country ?

After the patches, are Dutch still able to build up huge armies ?

 

[Oranje]

Originally posted by Falp:
Any Dutch around to help us in history details of the orange country ?

Well, I'm not a historian, but I do know a little history. Nowadays Belgium used to be called the Southern Netherlands in our history. When ringing our freedom from the Spanish in the 80 years war (1568-1648)we fought over those southern provinces too.
Gelre (nowadays Gelderland province) fought several wars with the bishop of Munster (Germany) before being incorporated in the Verenigde Nederlanden.
Because of the family ties of our royal family the princedom of Orange (in southern France, the city of Orange is still there) and Luxemburg (have a look at their national flag) at some point in time were governed by the Oranjes, the Dutch royal family.
Also, our king Willem (III?) has inherited the English crown by marriage, only reference I can come up with for the UK now would be the Orangists in Ulster, Northern Ireland, obviously related to them being of the protestant religion, just as our king.

Even in the beginning of the 19th century, I think it was in 1814 as the Napolean empire crumbled, King Willem I of the Netherlands fought a ten day war to regain the south. Unfortunately the great powers thought it wise in 1815 to form Belgium (combining some french speaking and flemish (sort of dutch) speaking provinces into an artificial country that even nowadays in some ways is not sure it wants to be one country . The better solution would ofcourse have been to let France have the french speaking part and join the rest with the Netherlands, but apparently in Vienna 1815 the rest was afraid of a too powerful Netherlands (or France?).

The power of the Netherlands was ofcourse never really based on military power (naval power excepted; we fought three wars against England in the 17th and 18th century, defeating their navy at several occasions), but on trade. Having all of Indonesia as a colony, colonies in North and South America, in South Africa (afrikaans is a descendant of dutch language, including the best known dutch word, 'apartheid' :-( ), and for a long period a trade monopoly with Japan, the powerful Vereenigde Oost-Indische Compagnie (VOC) was an economical powerhouse during much of the 16th and 17th century (Holland's golden age, both culturally and economically). Dutch bankers eventually actually financed the american struggle for independance from England by making large loans.


[This message has been edited by Oranje (edited 17-08-2000).]

 

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Thank God for the Netherlands. My English ancestors fled that less than tolerant nation to Holland and then to Pennsylvania.

 

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Thanks Oranje ! I like dutch people anyway, one of the coolest country in the world...
Well that was what I meant, no huge ground war. just a good navy (which is a lot I admit). Kind of difference with EU the CG, no ?

PS When you said 'The better solution [for Belgium] would of course have been to let France have the french speaking part and join the rest with the Netherlands'. No, thanks ! Who would we be joking about then ?

 

[Oranje]

My pleasure Falp.

As for your remark 'no huge ground war', I disagree. We never had a huge army, but fighting Spain for 80 years to get our freedom certainly qualifies as a huge war.
It started in 1568 with a revolt in Antwerp, and ended with the peacetreaty of Munster in 1648. I will try to find some more information on battles fought, and how large the forces were under the command of William of Orange.

Anyway, it obviously does not always require a large army in order to fight a long war and win it.
Probably our (and the British) navy had a large impact on the ability of Spain to reinforce their troops in the Netherlands.

greetings, Oranje

 

[Marcus]

Just a side note on the 'Southern Netherlands', now know as Belgium.
During the Dutch Independance war, only the Northern Part of the Netherlands )(year 2000 Netherlands, the Seven Provinces) achieved independance. The southern part (year 2000 Belgium+uxembourg), was still held by the Spaniards, who kindly asked any trouble making protestant to relocate to the north and made it a nice quiet catholic part of the Spanish empire.

After Napoleon was defeated in 1815, the powers that be (England) decided that a large, powerful nation was needed north of France to keep this country in check (balance of power). This became the Kingdom of the Netherlands, which included current day the Netherlands, Belgium and Luxembourg. However, as Oranje (is that you Alex ?, how's Maxima ) noted, this was not too last very long as the Belges proclaimed independance in (I think) 1840. What is the relevanc of all this ?

Well, I think if the Dutch Independance war is a complete succes (in the game) (independance for both the Northern and Southern Netherlands) it is a little bit more realistic for the Dutch to start raising hell all over Europe in Land wars as they then control a large(r) population to send to the battlefield.

I know everybody in this forum wants their little historic accuracies in the game, and I don't think this will make it into the game but it would be nice to have four things happen in relation to the Netherlands revolt.

1. no revolt, spain keeps all
2. revolt crushed, same as above (this would require a lot of effort by Spain)
3. Northern Part succesful revolt (medium effort by Spain)
4. Complete independance for modern day netherlands, Belgium and Luxembourg as the United X Provinces of the Netherlands, creating a powerhouse in North-Western Europe !! (this would happen if Spain makes no effort and loses everything).

Can't wait for the game !!!!! I've always thought the language barrier for Dutch-French should be a little south of Paris !

 

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I've always thought the language barrier for Dutch-French should be a little south of Paris !

Sorry Marcus, I rather think that French or Spanish is going to be spoken up to Zeeland in most games...
Which is much better, because, as a friend of mine says, Dutch is more a throat disease than a language...

 

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The beauty of any language lies in the ear of the listener... Have you ever heard swedish? hahahah

/Greven

 

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About Belgium, the year of revolution was 1830, caused by unhappiness of the catholics regarding interference of the protestants in clerical matters and of the liberals regarding the lack of presentation in the parliament of the unified Netherlands. (there was a fifty-fifty division while Belgium had a population of 3 million against 2 million in the Netherlands)
The Dutch send in an army but whether a real independence war would have resulted in a victory for the Belgians we'll never know because France interved pressed the Netherlands to withdraw.

A provisional govt declared independence on Oct 4, 1830, on Feb 7th, 1831 the national congress adopted a constitution and on July 21, our National Day, the first King of Belgium took his oath.

One last thing, for over 150 years many people, including Belgians, have been saying this is an artificial country, created by a historic coincidence and about to break apart. During the occupations of Germany in WWI and WWII they attempted to break loose Flanders from 'opression by the Latins' and make it join their 'Teutonic brothers'.
Yet, the country still exists, does it not ?

 

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Dutch history isn't really my forté, but I seem to remember that there was a significant and somewhat unusual naval victory against the Spanish, without which the Netherlands would have remained Spanish. Something about lots and lots of silver...can anyone refresh my memory?

 

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The beauty of any language lies in the ear of the listener... Have you ever heard swedish? hahahah

Indeed I have (have worked with Swedes for one year). It's beautiful compared to Dutch.

As my friend also says (he has been working for Philips for seven years, that's why he cannot stand Netherlands in general ) the fact that Dutch is so harsh and hurts the throat made them find a cure: beer! !

 

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quote:

Indeed I have (have worked with Swedes for one year). It's beautiful compared to Dutch.

Even being German I prefer Dutch. It's rough and wild like the northern
sea. No need to pretend being sophisticated like french.


------------------
who wants to be an Archbishop?

 

[Marcus]

jonesh,

This victory was the capturing of the Spanish silver fleet near Mantanzas (Cuba) by Piet Heyn in 16??. I don't know the exact date because I don't have my Van Nul tot Nu history book here. Anyway, this silver was very usufull as it payed for a lot of armies. Piet Heyn is still regarded as a national hero (sort of) up to this day.