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Empty86

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[MOD] Netherlands Improvement Project

I originally created this little mod for myself to make the situation in the Netherlands in 1066 more realistic. Now that I've expanded it a bit and made it compatible with v1.08b I thought I'd share it. :)

Major Features:

* County of Zutphen added.
* Prince-Bishopric of Oversticht added.
* Gelre moved south.
* Made Coat of Arms for the Flamens, van Zutphen and van Loon dynasties.

Minor Changes:

* All historical Bishops of Utrecht added to it's history.
* Changed 'Kingdom of Frisia' into 'Kingdom of Netherlands' (Because I don't think any of the rulers in that area in that time would still call themself King of Frisia if they were to become a king).
* Greatly changed the 'Flamens' dynasty: familyline goes much further back, Gerard is now count instead of Diederik and named the dynasty 'van Wassenberg' instead of 'Flamens'.
* Greatly expanded the 'van Zutphen' dynasty.
* Before the year 1200 more counties have the Dutch culture.
* Changed and renamed some of the baronies/cities/bishoprics.
* Gave County of Gelre the CoA it had for most of this time period.
* The Duchy of Holland and the Dutch of Gelre now contain more counties.

Screenshots:

Map.jpg

Duchies.jpg

Kingdoms.jpg

FamilyTree.jpg

Starting out small, but if you have any help/suggestions/interesting sources. Let me know. :)

My intention is not to create a hyperrealistic representation of the Netherlands in this timeperiod. I always want to make sure the area remains in balance with the world around it. So relatively unimportant counties will not make it to the mod, or can be a barony at most.

Download:

View attachment Netherlands Improvement Project.rar


Sources I used:
The book 'GELRE: Dynasty, land en identiteit in de late middeleeuwen' by Gerard Arie Noordzij, 2007.
The website www.graafschap-middeleeuwen.nl/
Darrigan's Mod: http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?585652-MOD-Lotharingia-and-Lowlands (got inspired by his mod and used some of the CoA's).
 
Last edited:

Polskers

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Hey mate! This looks fantastic! However, might I suggest that you expand further upon the base of that, and add the Duchies of Limburg, Artois, Frisia, etc. as well as a Frisian culture? Could turn into a nice 1.08 mod on the scale of Darrigan's improvement.

Groeten! :)
 

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How about adding the Frisian culture as separate from Dutch?
 

cybrxkhan

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richvh

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Yes, he's seen Darrigan's mod, he cited it as a source.
 

cybrxkhan

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Yes, he's seen Darrigan's mod, he cited it as a source.
Oh, whoops. That's what I get for skimming and not reading.
 

richvh

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I almost did the same thing, tracked the mod down then noticed he'd used it before I made a fool of myself.
 

Empty86

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Hey mate! This looks fantastic! However, might I suggest that you expand further upon the base of that, and add the Duchies of Limburg, Artois, Frisia, etc. as well as a Frisian culture? Could turn into a nice 1.08 mod on the scale of Darrigan's improvement.

Groeten! :)
Thank you. :) I might add some of these. Duchy of Limburg might be a possibility but it was relatively weak during this timeperiod and only independant for a very short time. It could be the County of Loon and Jülich, plus a possible third province. In real the title was soon claimed by the Duke of Lower Lorraine. About a Frisian Duchy I'm not very sure. Frisia was a very decentralised area, ruled by foreigners and often under attack by the Count of Holland. At the moment I don't think it should have the potential to become as powerful as a Duchy. I probably will add the Frisian culture, to reflect it was very different from the rest of the Netherlands and thus it should be harder to govern if any of the Dutch rulers conquer it.

About Artois being a Duchy I have no idea. Was it ever that strong? Did it have the potential to be? It is now a vassal of the Duke of Flandre, which it should be, so if the Duchy of Artois is added it should be hard to create it.
 

Ruwaard

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Well you also improve the Southern Netherlands too, so Brabant, Flanders, Limburg etc. ?

A final point is that I have a different opinion regarding the kingdom of Frisia (going back to that era might give more 'legitimacy'), but it's not major (can be modded).
 

Polskers

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Thank you. :) I might add some of these. Duchy of Limburg might be a possibility but it was relatively weak during this timeperiod and only independant for a very short time. It could be the County of Loon and Jülich, plus a possible third province. In real the title was soon claimed by the Duke of Lower Lorraine. About a Frisian Duchy I'm not very sure. Frisia was a very decentralised area, ruled by foreigners and often under attack by the Count of Holland. At the moment I don't think it should have the potential to become as powerful as a Duchy. I probably will add the Frisian culture, to reflect it was very different from the rest of the Netherlands and thus it should be harder to govern if any of the Dutch rulers conquer it.

About Artois being a Duchy I have no idea. Was it ever that strong? Did it have the potential to be? It is now a vassal of the Duke of Flandre, which it should be, so if the Duchy of Artois is added it should be hard to create it.
Well, the way that I look at it is that you could add the following things to the area of the Low Countries:

Limburg was considered a separate duchy within the Holy Roman Empire during the Middle Ages & early modern period, even if the title was assumed by the Duke of Lower Lorraine. I would suggest taking a look at how Darrigan did his version of the mod, and how he split up the Duchy of Limburg into Limburg, Vianden, and Aachen, with the dynasties to be replicated. Loon would be part of the Duchy of Limburg but also claimed by the Duchy of Liege. You could also add a separate "Limburgish" culture to represent the Low Saxon speaking people around that area.

Frisia as a one-duchy kingdom could be replicated very easily. Kingdom of Frisia, Duchy of Frisia, with Frisian cultured populace (although ruled by German, and later Frisian [such as the Cirksena] dynasties). I could offer some suggestions as to how to model that if you'd like.

The Duchy of Artois could cover Romance Flanders & give the area a "French" or "Walloon" base in a Dutch area, although in the Middle Ages the area was decidedly Flemish. It did have the potential to be, but perhaps give the option to create the Duchy of Artois if one is French speaking? I'm not sure, that is up to you to decide. :)

I like what you've done with Holland and Gelderland, admittedly! That is well modeled in the area.

You could flesh out Brabant a bit more, perhaps take a look at how Brabant is divided up into Vlaams-Brabant (the traditional "Duchy" of Brabant) & then how Hainaut is placed in the south (once again, take a look at Darrigan's mod or the latest version of The Prince & the Thane to see how to divvy it up). It's an interesting situation but it would allow for a great design of the Flemish - Walloon area.

Liege is also an interesting area to look at, as it requires delving into the territory of the Bishopric & Archbishopric of Liege and seeing the territorial evolution of it, as it swallowed up bits & pieces through cessions and imperial gifts throughout the ages.

I am very pleased with the look of the mod so far though, and I'd be glad to help with any information possible. :)
 

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As a dutchman I have mixed feelings about a mod like this.

It's a cool idea to expand the dutch realism. On the other hand, any attempt to do so will inflate the dutch power compared to reality.

All those tiny little counties which are added like zutphen, oversticht en gelre, they are incredibly minor and are more realisticaly depicted as single holdings. Giving them a real county with more potential holdings to be build or already present is seriously OP. In this time frame there are 3 times as many people living in belgium compared to the netherlands but this mod gives the same amount of counties/holdings to both areas (just like darrigans) -_-

At this time the netherlands is a bit of a colonial outpost of the HRE. The duke of holland is responsible for subduing the frisians and integrating them into feudal life (this is the reason why these minor areas get higher titles, because they are somewhat similar to the marches in east germany). At the same time the local feudal lords have trouble keeping peasants under tight control because they can just move through the boggs to another lord or town and work there for better wages or set up their own shop inbetween all the marshes. Alot of rheinish germans actualy move in at this time frame and start colonising the area of holland, bringing with them the early forms of water irrigation for the dutch. A mishmash of frisian and rheinish german culture is formed which would later be termed northern dutch culture, opposed to sourthern flemish culture.

Technicaly, dutch shouldn't be a language or culture at this time. The proper name IIRC is lower franconian, a subdivision in the german language and culture, much like the north-south split. And this language was mostly spoken in all of proper austrasia and even deep into central germany. But the game picks up the dutch culture in its 1550's form and gets sadly whiped out rather quickly...(which doesn't make sense, because technicaly dutch is a melting pot culture...well northern dutch is, southern flemish peoples are more pure, whatever that means)

P.S

Dear sweet god, I should learn to write smaller posts
 

Polskers

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IIRC, Blind One, the language in the Middle Ages was called "Dietsch", as a form of Low Saxon similar to what they would've spoken in the Rhineland. It was only once we began to standardise the language that we began calling it "Nederlands taal".
 

Chlodio

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Seems nice. You should also make more stuff for Benelux. Like creating as Beneluxian culture group and putting Dutch culture and splitting Dutch culture to Walloon and Flemish also you should split Luxembourg.
 

The_Blind_One

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IIRC, Blind One, the language in the Middle Ages was called "Dietsch", as a form of Low Saxon similar to what they would've spoken in the Rhineland. It was only once we began to standardise the language that we began calling it "Nederlands taal".
You are absolutely correct,

However afaik dietsch is a language of the lower franconian subdivision of german languages. So it would still hold. Indeed dutch or flemish didn't quite exist at this time yet as we know it.
 

Thure

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You are absolutely correct,

However afaik dietsch is a language of the lower franconian subdivision of german languages. So it would still hold. Indeed dutch or flemish didn't quite exist at this time yet as we know it.
Old Dutch exist at this time. One of the best knowed texts are from before 1066.
 

Polskers

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Absolutely the texts would've existed, but it'd have been called "Dietsch" & not "Nederlands" or anything of the sort. :)
 

Empty86

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Well, the way that I look at it is that you could add the following things to the area of the Low Countries:

Limburg was considered a separate duchy within the Holy Roman Empire during the Middle Ages & early modern period, even if the title was assumed by the Duke of Lower Lorraine. I would suggest taking a look at how Darrigan did his version of the mod, and how he split up the Duchy of Limburg into Limburg, Vianden, and Aachen, with the dynasties to be replicated. Loon would be part of the Duchy of Limburg but also claimed by the Duchy of Liege. You could also add a separate "Limburgish" culture to represent the Low Saxon speaking people around that area.

Frisia as a one-duchy kingdom could be replicated very easily. Kingdom of Frisia, Duchy of Frisia, with Frisian cultured populace (although ruled by German, and later Frisian [such as the Cirksena] dynasties). I could offer some suggestions as to how to model that if you'd like.

The Duchy of Artois could cover Romance Flanders & give the area a "French" or "Walloon" base in a Dutch area, although in the Middle Ages the area was decidedly Flemish. It did have the potential to be, but perhaps give the option to create the Duchy of Artois if one is French speaking? I'm not sure, that is up to you to decide. :)

I like what you've done with Holland and Gelderland, admittedly! That is well modeled in the area.

You could flesh out Brabant a bit more, perhaps take a look at how Brabant is divided up into Vlaams-Brabant (the traditional "Duchy" of Brabant) & then how Hainaut is placed in the south (once again, take a look at Darrigan's mod or the latest version of The Prince & the Thane to see how to divvy it up). It's an interesting situation but it would allow for a great design of the Flemish - Walloon area.

Liege is also an interesting area to look at, as it requires delving into the territory of the Bishopric & Archbishopric of Liege and seeing the territorial evolution of it, as it swallowed up bits & pieces through cessions and imperial gifts throughout the ages.

I am very pleased with the look of the mod so far though, and I'd be glad to help with any information possible. :)
I know that the Duchy of Limburg was a separate title yes. But I'm not sure if it was prestigious enough, or consisted of enough land to give it a ducal title in-game (I want to keep things balanced). As far as I know it was a relatively small area locked in between the lands of Liège and Jülich.

Same goes for Frisia pretty much. By 1066 Frisia was a County and had already long lost it's Kingdom prestige from a couple of hundred years before. If the Kingdom title is made only a few provinces, then it will be fairly easy for them to form, which in my opinion would give them an unrealistic amount of power. Maybe a Duchy would be a more realistic option, but only a Frisian ruler should be able to crown himself Duke of Frisia, not the current German counts that rule the area. And I'm not sure if that's possible with Ducal titles.

I do want to divide Brabant yes, to probably two provinces with 2-3 Baronies.

About Liège, the province has a very strange shape that is probably modelled after what the Prince-Bishopric of Liège looked like in the 15th century. I will probably redraw that area and add Namur somewhere in between.

Thanks for the compliments and the help. In general my knowledge about the Southern and Western Netherlands is lacking, so I will always consider suggestions about these areas if I can think of a good way to keep it balanced. I will take a look at The Prince & the Thane mod; haven't tried that one yet. Darrigan's mod also has some good ideas, but in general I think it overpowers the area by adding some provinces that are in my opinion quite redundant. I will not add every County just because it had the County title in the 11th century, some might be represented as a Barony or simply not at all.

About cultures in general: I don't really like how Paradox Interactive implemented cultures in this game. Right now it suggests there were some very strict cultural boundaries in Europa. I know that they didn't exist in at least the Netherlands. Almost every town and small region had it's own distinct dialect, and someone from Gelre (Dutch culture in game) could probably understand someone from Münster (German culture in game) more easily than someone from Brugge (Dutch culture in game). So should I make Gelre German? No, because that suggests they can understand someone from Bavaria or Brandenburg better than someone from Brugge, which is probably not the case. So in my opinion either almost every county should have it's own culture, or culture should be completely removed from the game. For now I mostly ignore it in my mod, the provinces that are Dutch in this mod now, are roughly the same provinces that spoke 'Old Dutch' in the 11th century according to wikipedia.

EDIT:

Just seen The Prince & the Thane mod. I like how they did the southern Netherlands. Although I'm not sure about the addition of Leuven. Or is it simply meant to represent Southern Brabant? Also nice to see the addition of Veluwe and Bentheim, but these are probably the typical provinces I would call redundant. I think it's better to have them as Baronies.

However I will definatly take some inspiration from how this mod did the Southern Netherlands.

Also I like how Aachen en Brussel are made city states, but do they really deserve their own province?
 
Last edited:

Empty86

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As a dutchman I have mixed feelings about a mod like this.

It's a cool idea to expand the dutch realism. On the other hand, any attempt to do so will inflate the dutch power compared to reality.

All those tiny little counties which are added like zutphen, oversticht en gelre, they are incredibly minor and are more realisticaly depicted as single holdings. Giving them a real county with more potential holdings to be build or already present is seriously OP. In this time frame there are 3 times as many people living in belgium compared to the netherlands but this mod gives the same amount of counties/holdings to both areas (just like darrigans) -_-

At this time the netherlands is a bit of a colonial outpost of the HRE. The duke of holland is responsible for subduing the frisians and integrating them into feudal life (this is the reason why these minor areas get higher titles, because they are somewhat similar to the marches in east germany). At the same time the local feudal lords have trouble keeping peasants under tight control because they can just move through the boggs to another lord or town and work there for better wages or set up their own shop inbetween all the marshes. Alot of rheinish germans actualy move in at this time frame and start colonising the area of holland, bringing with them the early forms of water irrigation for the dutch. A mishmash of frisian and rheinish german culture is formed which would later be termed northern dutch culture, opposed to sourthern flemish culture.

Technicaly, dutch shouldn't be a language or culture at this time. The proper name IIRC is lower franconian, a subdivision in the german language and culture, much like the north-south split. And this language was mostly spoken in all of proper austrasia and even deep into central germany. But the game picks up the dutch culture in its 1550's form and gets sadly whiped out rather quickly...(which doesn't make sense, because technicaly dutch is a melting pot culture...well northern dutch is, southern flemish peoples are more pure, whatever that means)

P.S

Dear sweet god, I should learn to write smaller posts
The mod is still in an early stage. I haven't touched the Southern Netherlands yet so yes the North has become stronger whilst the south stayed the same. Zutphen was added to reflect how Gelre started as a southern province, but moved upwards and became stronger when they inherited the County of Zutphen and acquired the Veluwe. Oversticht was added because Gelre never had a land connection with Frisia, and it's a relatively large area that can't be ignored. Currently Oversticht is overpowered yes. It was very poor and had a very low population in 1066 and for many centuries after. It will have 1 less holding and once less potential holding in the next update.

I have added the provinces of Namur and Limburg to the next version, and looking into Brabant and Luxembourg now.

http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/595864569168481171/2D28E86B008C918A1556B2F747102ABAFF702640/
 
Last edited:

Polskers

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Looks very good your map so far, mate!

As far as culture goes, perhaps it's a case of divvying up Dutch (according to how we Dutch speaking folk would like it!), although it would require a separate Dutch culture group. Brabantian, Flemish, Limburgish, Hollandic, Low Saxon, Frisian, could all be made separate groups, or you could once again group them all into a "Dietsch" identity. It is up to you, but I would suggest reading some academic sources for inspiration.