Netherlands didn't form??? Austria out of control!!

[lapens]

So I chose to play as a Protestant France in my latest game. After the *insane* religious wars that had me thumping the desk way more than normal, I've turned my attention back to 'historical' expansion. I'm only interested in expanding to historical borders, but this is impossible because of...

Nutso Austria! It's 1690 and The Netherlands never formed as Austria was somehow able to nab Dutch as a primary culture straight away. As a result they control vast swathes of territory across Europe, including *all* of my border provs down to Savoy. Still, I'm confident that I could take Austria 1-on-1, but of course they are allied with... Nutso Brandenburg! Together those guys have got me covered... for now

Anyway, my point is that Austria shouldn't be able to grab Dutch as a primary culture - should it? Seems a bit broken. As far as I was aware Austria was always substantial back in their home territories and through Alsace/Lorraine, so I'm not sure how they got Dutch culture due to the 20% base tax rule?

Is this a bug or working as intended?

 

[Freudia]

WAD due to game mechanics. If Dutch meets 20% of Austria's base tax at some point, it becomes an accepted culture until it falls below 10%. With that said, the Dutch Revolts don't give a damn about whether Dutch is an accepted culture or not; they'll fire so long as the province owner isn't Dutch culture.

Of course, Netherlands breaking free has always been underwhelming for as long as I remember; they either failed to break free or broke free but very weak in previous builds.

 

[balmung60]

I don't think I've actually seen an independent Netherlands, or at least one that lasted more than 50 years before being re-annexed since 1.4 or so. In my current game, there's technically an independent Netherlands (because all-of-northern-Germany-Brandenburg apparently derped hard when dealing with the revolts or something), but Brandenburg has reduced them to a 2PM and will likely soon finish the deed if France doesn't continue blobbing through the area where the HRE once existed (since the HRE was dismantled early on in response to a Brandenburger Emperorship + Burgundian Inheritance, it's now basically France and a Styria rump state in the south ex-HRE (with France also devouring Castile, which never got to form Spain), Blobhemia in the middle, and Brandenblob in the north). And me? I'm the USA and France is my ally (and former colonial overlord), so as far as I'm concerned, what happens in Europe stays in Europe.

What it amounts to is that AI and players alike simply crush the revolts more often than not because why would you willingly let go of so many provinces that are that rich and that valuable for trade reasons?

 

[Illianor123]

The only times I have seen strong ones when a human was Emperor and not Austria and let them be strong so they would colonise and then be integrated when they passed the last reform.

 

[lapens]

I don't think I've actually seen an independent Netherlands, or at least one that lasted more than 50 years before being re-annexed since 1.4 or so.

Ahh - this would explain it. I haven't played since last Christmas holidays and I just checked - 1.4 came out January 14th... hence I've not played since about v1.4.

A shame as going back to EU2 I always loved watching the AI try and deal with the Dutch revolts. The good news is that I know what I'll be doing in the game from now on - forcing Austria to release the Netherlands!!!

...just have to break up that marriage between Brandenburg and Austria!

 

[balmung60]

I don't think that anything about the revolts changed since 1.4, really, rather that was just about how long it's been since I've seen anything like a successful revolt by the Dutch. It's just that they usually get crushed, and even without intervention, Austria has more than enough men and cash to crush the Dutch revolts. Really, pretty much anyone who gets the Burgundian Inheritance will have the resources to crush the Dutch revolt, particularly since they show up piecemeal. If they all revolted at once, then maybe it would occasionally work.

 

[wergy]

I have a much worse scenario in my current Pomerania game:

Austria allies France on day 0 or so. Burgundian inheritance never fires, France conquers all of Burgundy. Austro-French alliance hence is unbreakable, os they steamroll literally whoever they feel like it, and nobody can attack them without dragging in the other one. Austria is HRE and France is globbing up minors like crazy and the Habsburgs just sit back and watch it... :S

 

[hauptman]

My current game as Brandenburg, austria inherited Burgundy, Hungary, and Norway. But Netherlands still broke free, just happen to do it at the right time... So now those orange bastards are stealing all my Lubeck trade.

Side note, Austria revoked the privilage, so I just DoWed and dismantled the empire. Austria will never have dip points ever again. /giggle

 

[balmung60]

I have a much worse scenario in my current Pomerania game:

Austria allies France on day 0 or so. Burgundian inheritance never fires, France conquers all of Burgundy. Austro-French alliance hence is unbreakable, os they steamroll literally whoever they feel like it, and nobody can attack them without dragging in the other one. Austria is HRE and France is globbing up minors like crazy and the Habsburgs just sit back and watch it... :S

Part of the blame in my case probably also falls at my feet. You see, I started as France before releasing a CN and becoming the USA, and the France I left was a pretty fair blob already. By 1610, they're taking the former Austrian lands and have nearly hit peak Napoleonic base tax (611 out of 653), letting them weigh in at nearly three times the wealth of the next richest not-me nation (most other majors are hovering around 200 base tax). And if anyone wanted to even try to stop them, they'd have to deal with the Triple Alliance of (French) USA, France, and (Welsh) Great Britain.

And speaking of doomed Netherlands, France just vassalized the remains, so in about 10 to 15 years, the Netherlands will be gone again.

 

[Sandmann]

WAD due to game mechanics. If Dutch meets 20% of Austria's base tax at some point, it becomes an accepted culture until it falls below 10%. With that said, the Dutch Revolts don't give a damn about whether Dutch is an accepted culture or not; they'll fire so long as the province owner isn't Dutch culture.

Of course, Netherlands breaking free has always been underwhelming for as long as I remember; they either failed to break free or broke free but very weak in previous builds.

I thought moving your capital to the Netherlands was enough to prevent dutch revolt events from happening?

 

[TheRevanchist]

I'd love to know how the Dutch revolt is decided. In some games, Netherlands revolts as an OPM and gets squashed with no problem. In other games, I've seen them form with the entire Austrian Netherlands right off the bat, leaving Austria with only 1-2 provinces in the region.

 

[Aries666]

Isn't it the case that when the Netherlands revolts all the rivals of the former holder of those lands are given the option to ally and help the Netherlands in their independence war? In a Spain game I am playing they revolted and I was offered an alliance (I had conquered France) and they retained all their territory as a result.

 

[TheDarkMaster]

I thought moving your capital to the Netherlands was enough to prevent dutch revolt events from happening?

You can. the conditions for the revolt are:
1) Don't have Dutch or Flemish as your primary (not accepted, primary) culture.
2) Don't have your capital in the Netherlands area.
3) Control a province in the Netherlands area.
4) Year is between 1550 and 1650.
5) Netherlands hasn't already revolted (this is a one time deal), and doesn't currently exist.

 

[Sandmann]

You can. the conditions for the revolt are:
1) Don't have Dutch or Flemish as your primary (not accepted, primary) culture.
2) Don't have your capital in the Netherlands area.
3) Control a province in the Netherlands area.
4) Year is between 1550 and 1650.
5) Netherlands hasn't already revolted (this is a one time deal), and doesn't currently exist.

Many thanks for the clarification!

 

[Xinkc]

So I chose to play as a Protestant France in my latest game. After the *insane* religious wars that had me thumping the desk way more than normal, I've turned my attention back to 'historical' expansion. I'm only interested in expanding to historical borders, but this is impossible because of...

Nutso Austria! It's 1690 and The Netherlands never formed as Austria was somehow able to nab Dutch as a primary culture straight away. As a result they control vast swathes of territory across Europe, including *all* of my border provs down to Savoy. Still, I'm confident that I could take Austria 1-on-1, but of course they are allied with... Nutso Brandenburg! Together those guys have got me covered... for now

Anyway, my point is that Austria shouldn't be able to grab Dutch as a primary culture - should it? Seems a bit broken. As far as I was aware Austria was always substantial back in their home territories and through Alsace/Lorraine, so I'm not sure how they got Dutch culture due to the 20% base tax rule?

Is this a bug or working as intended?

Usually when Austria receives the inheritance its total base tax is low enough to get Dutch accepted since it's wealthy enough and more numerous than Flemish. Anyways, I've always been a bit disappointed with how the Dutch revolts work. They're rarely a threat to the country that receives the inheritance and if the Netherlands does form, they start and independence war with no allies. At least they can call people in now. Few things were more frustrating than my Sad France game in 1.6-1.7 when the Netherlands allied me right away but I couldn't join them in their initial war against Austria. I then abandoned them to eat the lands myself but still frustrating.

Also, I hope you're enjoying the Protestant France. It can definitely hurt if you get the religious turmoil but the idea cost discount and increase taxes work well with France in my opinion. Though, I'm currently freaking out at how awesome Reformed is in my Reformed France game.

 

[Marcus Septim]

in my last 2-3 games france and Great Britain always join netherlands against austria now they have a good chance very stable netherlands in my games