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DoomBunny

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That has nothing to do with colonialism, but private foreign investment & trade, and happened in many independent countries. Per capita, British companies built manifold times more railways in Brazil and Franco-Belgians in Russia, than were built in India during the same time period. You're ascribing to "colonialism" things that have nothing to with colonial status or colonial authorities. Railways were not a public good, but private business. Foreign investment does not require foreign conquest as a pre-condition.

Did I ever suggest it did? If you look back, you'll note I've mentioned investment in other countries (i.e., Persia, the Ottoman Empire, China). I merely suggested that it is not a straightforward path from independence to industrial development.

In some cases however, railways were built by public bodies for non-private reasons, as already mentioned, so I would not be so quick to write them off like this. Indeed, the very example you cite of French involvement in Russia had a strong geopolitical/military motivation centered on making the Franco-Russian alliance a practical strategic concept.
 

Abdul Goatherd

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Did I ever suggest it did? If you look back, you'll note I've mentioned investment in other countries (i.e., Persia, the Ottoman Empire, China). I merely suggested that it is not a straightforward path from independence to industrial development.

Perhaps not. But it is a relatively straightforward path from colonialism to underdevelopment.

In some cases however, railways were built by public bodies for non-private reasons, as already mentioned, so I would not be so quick to write them off like this. Indeed, the very example you cite of French involvement in Russia had a strong geopolitical/military motivation centered on making the Franco-Russian alliance a practical strategic concept.

Not according to the Franco-Belgian investors. They were completely convinced it was economic only, and were deliberately misled by the Russian government about the routes. Tsarist agents bribed the foreign financial press to plant stories. Old habits die hard, I guess. :p
 

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They didn't have perfect control, no. But the reason they didn't was because of their own incompetence. Under and over reporting of production statistics were themselves the product of using production targets and plan conformance rather than profit as a measure of economic success. I'm certainly not claiming that deceit is a uniquely Marxist problem, but it is one that Marxist economic models place in the centre of all economic activity. Indeed, deceit as to production becomes the norm, firstly because you want to make yourself look good (and avoid getting shot/gulaged), and secondly because that way you make more money; targets were set centrally and with 'reasonable' expectations in mind, if you look like you're struggling initially then they are lowered, and you can then get more money for yourself by beating this lowered target, all without producing that which you might have. Note that targets were frequently altered mid-month anyway, so another problem was that in many places the first few weeks of the month were spent dawdling and then the last week was spent doing literally everything, resulting in yet more production quality issues, missed targets, under-production, etc...

Moreover, particularly as regards food, the main problem is simply that farmers in planned economies tend to have absolutely zero motivation to actually do their job. Outside of growing food for themselves, there is simply no way to turn a profit or achieve anything meaningful, as whatever the farmers produce will be taken away at a price so low as to make the effort of farming pointless. I can't check the exact figures as the book is in a library nearly a hundred km away, but private agriculture in the Eastern bloc accounted for a hugely disproportionate amount of food production. At the same time, the state was requisitioning agricultural production for prices 10% of their market value.

It's very much a case of an idiot walking into a hospital and being handed the surgeons gloves and a blindfold. Yes, he can't tell what he's doing, but at the same time, noone should have given it to him in the first place because even if he could see what he was doing he has no idea, moreover he should know better than to attempt the surgery in the first place.


Agriculture in the USSR and China was not a uniform system of Socialist thought. While the most known aspect is the Kolchos system both the USSR and China did, throughout their existence experiment with different forms of ownership and agricultural systems. None, barring the herding was very successfully and In the case of Russia, agricultural production had failed to meet demand during the tsarist era as well. Ukraine and Poland Otoh who used to be productive became inefficient but as the USSR was gearing towards industry that mismanagement was again: not relevant to the focus at the time.

In the late 19th century communal plots was a much appreciated modern inventiom in Britain and west Europe. It allowed for a better standard of food. The food-gardening for actual food began subsiding in the 60's and 70's with the centralization of food industry and increased wages. The Soviet household gardening is tied with the standard of living increases that came with the Dachas. In the west the green wave was in full swing at that time.

Attributing the shortcomings of Soviet agriculture to ideology is to fall victim to a grand narrative. In the 80's the social democratic regime in Sweden had phased out agticultural subsidies and the agricultural sector was competetive without atate intervention, US on the other hand was subsidiIng theirs. The EU relies on subsidies, so does the US. Ethiopia doesn't etc. You'll find examples for success and failure regardless of system and as is the case with the USSR a single ideology in a single state doesn't mean a single system or the same issues over time.
 

DoomBunny

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Perhaps not. But it is a relatively straightforward path from colonialism to underdevelopment.

As I've shown previously, it really isn't.

Not according to the Franco-Belgian investors. They were completely convinced it was economic only, and were deliberately misled by the Russian government about the routes. Tsarist agents bribed the foreign financial press to plant stories. Old habits die hard, I guess. :p

IIRC this was actually French government investment.

Agriculture in the USSR and China was not a uniform system of Socialist thought. While the most known aspect is the Kolchos system both the USSR and China did, throughout their existence experiment with different forms of ownership and agricultural systems. None, barring the herding was very successfully and In the case of Russia, agricultural production had failed to meet demand during the tsarist era as well. Ukraine and Poland Otoh who used to be productive became inefficient but as the USSR was gearing towards industry that mismanagement was again: not relevant to the focus at the time.

In the late 19th century communal plots was a much appreciated modern inventiom in Britain and west Europe. It allowed for a better standard of food. The food-gardening for actual food began subsiding in the 60's and 70's with the centralization of food industry and increased wages. The Soviet household gardening is tied with the standard of living increases that came with the Dachas. In the west the green wave was in full swing at that time.

Attributing the shortcomings of Soviet agriculture to ideology is to fall victim to a grand narrative. In the 80's the social democratic regime in Sweden had phased out agticultural subsidies and the agricultural sector was competetive without atate intervention, US on the other hand was subsidiIng theirs. The EU relies on subsidies, so does the US. Ethiopia doesn't etc. You'll find examples for success and failure regardless of system and as is the case with the USSR a single ideology in a single state doesn't mean a single system or the same issues over time.

I'm aware that not all Socialist models ended up the same. However, it is empirically very clear that the use of collectivized agriculture was a spectacular failure. Peasants refused to work on the collective land unless forced to, that land which was held privately produced a massively disproportionate share of the crops, and there were widespread shortages. These were common issues throughout nations that tried these policies. The comparison to somewhere like the EU falls flat; whilst the EU certainly intervenes in the agricultural market, it does not do so in the same way the USSR did, it is not a planned economy.
 

HuzzButt

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As I've shown previously, it really isn't.



IIRC this was actually French government investment.



I'm aware that not all Socialist models ended up the same. However, it is empirically very clear that the use of collectivized agriculture was a spectacular failure. Peasants refused to work on the collective land unless forced to, that land which was held privately produced a massively disproportionate share of the crops, and there were widespread shortages. These were common issues throughout nations that tried these policies. The comparison to somewhere like the EU falls flat; whilst the EU certainly intervenes in the agricultural market, it does not do so in the same way the USSR did, it is not a planned economy.



The failures of collectivization of subsistence farmers was felt by the USSR which also responded during the first half of the century with ceasing collectivization efforts. Post war it is not meaningfull to talk about collectivization, the production units if not in name were transformed into corporate farming and the farmers were labourers.

Kibbutzes otoh is a successfull example of collectivization and companies like ARLA, Lantmännen etc are examples of what amounts to farmers union which sets quotas, prices etc. Those collective efforts have persisted and will likely persist.

EU agricultural subsidies is very much a planned economy, it has fixed quotas, fixed reimbursment sums and so forth.
 

DoomBunny

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The failures of collectivization of subsistence farmers was felt by the USSR which also responded during the first half of the century with ceasing collectivization efforts. Post war it is not meaningfull to talk about collectivization, the production units if not in name were transformed into corporate farming and the farmers were labourers.

Kibbutzes otoh is a successfull example of collectivization and companies like ARLA, Lantmännen etc are examples of what amounts to farmers union which sets quotas, prices etc. Those collective efforts have persisted and will likely persist.

Indeed so, the USSR did take a lot of measures to try and fix its agricultural sector. They didn't work however, and the problem still remained that convincing people to work land outside of their own private plots was difficult. People didn't want to produce food because there simply wasn't any reason to do more than the minimum necessary to feed yourself.

EU agricultural subsidies is very much a planned economy, it has fixed quotas, fixed reimbursment sums and so forth.

There is a lot of intervention in it, it is not however the same as the Soviet model.
 

Abdul Goatherd

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As I've shown previously, it really isn't.

And I (and others) have shown many times it really is.

IIRC this was actually French government investment.

Government? Foreign governments don't invest. Nope, it was all private capital - Franco-Belgian banks, securities & bonds floated on Paris exchanges, etc.
 

DoomBunny

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And I (and others) have shown many times it really is.

Well, no, you haven't. As I pointed out above, there are issues with the comparison in the first place, and the numbers really don't add up. There is no straightforward connection between colonization and development.

Government? Foreign governments don't invest. Nope, it was all private capital - Franco-Belgian banks, securities & bonds floated on Paris exchanges, etc.

I'd have to check but IIRC these were French government bonds issued to provide for loans to the Russian government to build railways for a military purpose.
 

HuzzButt

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Indeed so, the USSR did take a lot of measures to try and fix its agricultural sector. They didn't work however, and the problem still remained that convincing people to work land outside of their own private plots was difficult. People didn't want to produce food because there simply wasn't any reason to do more than the minimum necessary to feed yourself.

There is a lot of intervention in it, it is not however the same as the Soviet model.


I agree with the first paragraph but it's only applicable during the first collectivization attempts, the 1920's and 1950's respectively. After that the agricultural sector becomes little different from any other economic industry.

There was no "Soviet" model and if we are to straight up compare the models then the USSR used trade surplus to import food and the EU has used trade surplus to ban food imports and prop up domestic production.

The USSR is was far more complex than Socialism both in ideology and in implementation. The agricultural sector was afflicted by stringent ideology but more pragmatic steps were taken, they to did fail for most part but attributing that failure to socialism overlooks the multitude of issues that were behind the failures, all of which can be found at one time or another in the west.
 

Abdul Goatherd

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Well, no, you haven't. As I pointed out above, there are issues with the comparison in the first place, and the numbers really don't add up. There is no straightforward connection between colonization and development.

It's pretty straightforward.

I'd have to check but IIRC these were French government bonds issued to provide for loans to the Russian government to build railways for a military purpose.

They were Russian securities, directly floated and held by private French & Belgian citizens. Only a small fraction had any sort of French government guarantee. The only time French government made loans to Russia was subsidy loans to Russian government during WWI for the war effort. When the Bolsheviks repudiated the Tsarist-era national debt, the French government was not on the hook for it - it was private investors who were fleeced.

Incidentally, the handler of French claims on Russia was the "Bureau des Biens et Intérêts Privés" founded in 1918. Notice the name.
 

DoomBunny

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I agree with the first paragraph but it's only applicable during the first collectivization attempts, the 1920's and 1950's respectively. After that the agricultural sector becomes little different from any other economic industry.

There was no "Soviet" model and if we are to straight up compare the models then the USSR used trade surplus to import food and the EU has used trade surplus to ban food imports and prop up domestic production.

The USSR is was far more complex than Socialism both in ideology and in implementation. The agricultural sector was afflicted by stringent ideology but more pragmatic steps were taken, they to did fail for most part but attributing that failure to socialism overlooks the multitude of issues that were behind the failures, all of which can be found at one time or another in the west.

It is not only applicable during the collectivization attempts, even afterwards Soviet agriculture continued to under-perform. It did so for the same old reasons; there was no motivation for the farmers to actually produce anything beyond the private plots which they were allowed, and therefore they had to be forced to work on the land that wasn't their own. The major causes behind this was a deliberate policy of cheap agricultural requisition and the lack of motivation to produce when profits were shared equally between enterprise members.

Agriculture outside the Marxist block certainly has some similarities therein, but it misses out on some crucial points. Namely, the farmers actually have a motivation to grow food (excepting of course cases where land is deliberately left unfarmed, but this is an issue of over-production rather than under-production), which they didn't have in either the classic or the revisionist Soviet economic model.

It's pretty straightforward.

Nobody has convincingly made the case for it. You pointed to earlier arguments, and yet in all these I have yet to see someone present a persuasive argument in favour of this straightforward link. It relies on conceptions of what colonialism does to an area rather than an analysis of the facts; these themselves are somewhat unreliable as evidence, but seem to point to the conclusion that there is little link between colonized/non-colonized and wealth.

They were Russian securities, directly floated and held by private French & Belgian citizens. Only a small fraction had any sort of French government guarantee. The only time French government made loans to Russia was subsidy loans to Russian government during WWI for the war effort. When the Bolsheviks repudiated the Tsarist-era national debt, the French government was not on the hook for it - it was private investors who were fleeced.

Incidentally, the handler of French claims on Russia was the "Bureau des Biens et Intérêts Privés" founded in 1918. Notice the name.

Quite possibly correct, like I said I'd have to check. However this does ring a bell and it is quite possible I got things muddled, given this explanation shares many elements which could have been mismatched.
 

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It is not only applicable during the collectivization attempts, even afterwards Soviet agriculture continued to under-perform. It did so for the same old reasons; there was no motivation for the farmers to actually produce anything beyond the private plots which they were allowed, and therefore they had to be forced to work on the land that wasn't their own. The major causes behind this was a deliberate policy of cheap agricultural requisition and the lack of motivation to produce when profits were shared equally between enterprise members.

Agriculture outside the Marxist block certainly has some similarities therein, but it misses out on some crucial points. Namely, the farmers actually have a motivation to grow food (excepting of course cases where land is deliberately left unfarmed, but this is an issue of over-production rather than under-production), which they didn't have in either the classic or the revisionist Soviet economic model.


The explanation you present (I know it's not yours) relies on a mechanism that either isn't present in the rest of the world and all other industries or doesn't work in the same way anywhere else. The absolute majority of laborers in the USSR and outside the USSR does not stand to gain from increasing their productivity. Yet productivity always increases a great part of that productivity increase stems from mechanization (which happened in the USSR and led to increased production) and education (which also took place in the USSR and increased production.). The USSR was marred with inefficiencies and it's comparable degree of industrialization should of course be reasoned to be the largest reason as to why productivity lagged behind, rather than the metaphysics of ideology.

Your examples are applicable during the 1920's and 1950's respectively after that collectivization had turned farmers into laborers in a mechanized industry.


The comparison between the Ural sea and the ongoing drought crisis in the Ogallalah, California are both the same, state subsidized use of inorganic fertilizers coupled with excessive water usage. Corollaries such as a failure to invest in an develop agriculture in more suitable regions are found in both cases, the cash crop blinds the eyes of both Western and Eastern politicians.
 

Eusebio

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If you're talking about a full transformation to becoming a modern industrialized economy comparable with those in the West, then no. However, we must place this failure in its proper context; by 1950 there really weren't that many properly industrialized nations in the world.

And in 2017?

Do you think South Korea would have become a developed nation had it remained under Japanese rule? I also have a difficult time seeing Ireland having the space to develop the economic strategy which made the country wealthier than the UK if it had remained in the union (see: the economic decline of Wales as shackled to London and the South East). Or indeed the problems Greece has had with its economy in the hands of a foreign power. ;)
 
Last edited:

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And in 2017?

Do you think South Korea would have become a developed nation had it remained under Japanese rule? I also have a difficult time seeing Ireland having the space to develop the economic strategy which made the country wealthier than the UK if it had remained in the union (see: the economic decline of Wales as shackled to London and the South East). Or indeed the problems Greece has had with its economy in the hands of a foreign power. ;)
greek politicians screwed up their economy, there is no need to defend them.
 

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Perhaps not. But it is a relatively straightforward path from colonialism to underdevelopment.



Not according to the Franco-Belgian investors. They were completely convinced it was economic only, and were deliberately misled by the Russian government about the routes. Tsarist agents bribed the foreign financial press to plant stories. Old habits die hard, I guess. :p
no surprise, colonialism back then and now was to exploit the resources of the colonies for the colonizer's benefit. They didn't care about anything that didn't affect significantly them making money.
 

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The explanation you present (I know it's not yours) relies on a mechanism that either isn't present in the rest of the world and all other industries or doesn't work in the same way anywhere else. The absolute majority of laborers in the USSR and outside the USSR does not stand to gain from increasing their productivity. Yet productivity always increases a great part of that productivity increase stems from mechanization (which happened in the USSR and led to increased production) and education (which also took place in the USSR and increased production.). The USSR was marred with inefficiencies and it's comparable degree of industrialization should of course be reasoned to be the largest reason as to why productivity lagged behind, rather than the metaphysics of ideology.

Your examples are applicable during the 1920's and 1950's respectively after that collectivization had turned farmers into laborers in a mechanized industry.


Of course workers stand to gain from increasing their productivity. Do a better job, company does better, boss notices you do better, boss gives you a raise/promotion, or at least that's the theory.

Let's see if I can remember the Soviet model off the top of my head.

In the case of the Soviet worker, this was true as well. If he produced more, he did get more money, but the way this was handled was a major flaw. Dealing just with the issue of wages/motivation here, I'll explain how. From the top, a central plan was handed down to tell the enterprise in question what to produce for that period. This production figure would be a target, and would be phrased in certain variables (i.e., produce 5,000 units, or 10,000 tonnes of coal, or 17,000m of telephone wire). Once production for the period was complete, then the government purchased all the production and passed it on to the commercial sector who had to sell it. On the worker's end, he received reward in two ways. Firstly, he was paid a standard wage based on his skills, his level of responsibility, and any hazards (this was not a flat rate and so certain workers were paid more than others). Secondly, he received a share of the 'profits' of the enterprise. These were calculated by looking at the planning target and seeing how much the factory had produced; excess production received more money which was then split between the workers. Amongst the issues of this system were that there was the previously mentioned deception over targets (so that a factory could turn a sizable profit without working to its full potential), and that instead of selling the enterprise had to meet arbitrary production targets (with the obvious implication that quality was completely unimportant, and in many cases a loss of quality was beneficial to the factory because cheap garbage guaranteed the same results as excellent quality but with half the effort or cost). The Soviet worker was therefore incentivized in a different manner to his counterpart in the free world; the latter was incentivized to be useful to his company in the hopes that he might receive a promotion, the former was incentivized to be as corrupt as possible.

In agriculture, there was a similar issue. Depending on the type of farm in question things differed. However, in the state farm, which was the main element after the collectivization efforts, there were two types of land. On the one hand, each farmer had his own little private plot in his garden or the such; on this he could grow what he liked, and he could also sell his produce on the black market (with food prices sometimes 10x their 'actual' value). This, predictably, saw the most activity. The state land meanwhile he was to farm in exchange for payment from the state, it therefore didn't matter what he produced, and mattered little if he produced anything at all, because the prices for the goods were set so artificially low it simply wasn't worth his time. The time working on state land therefore had to be enforced legally. Note that this didn't always result in catastrophic under-production; shortages were the norm but famines were not, in part because the under-performing agricultural sector was compensated for by other parts of the economy.

The comparison between the Ural sea and the ongoing drought crisis in the Ogallalah, California are both the same, state subsidized use of inorganic fertilizers coupled with excessive water usage. Corollaries such as a failure to invest in an develop agriculture in more suitable regions are found in both cases, the cash crop blinds the eyes of both Western and Eastern politicians.

Different thing. What I'm talking about is worker motivation, not government intervention (though that can often be bad as well).

Moreover, I'd suggest you're misunderstanding me. Not all negative state intervention is Marxist in nature, but all Marxist regimes have intervened in their economies in a negative way. My point is not that Marxism is unique in this (though it does take it to an extreme), rather that it is a serial failure of Marxist government.

And in 2017?

Do you think South Korea would have become a developed nation had it remained under Japanese rule? I also have a difficult time seeing Ireland having the space to develop the economic strategy which made the country wealthier than the UK if it had remained in the union (see: the economic decline of Wales as shackled to London and the South East). Or indeed the problems Greece has had with its economy in the hands of a foreign power. ;)

Perhaps, perhaps not. Alternative history is a fickle beast and of little value to academic analysis of the subject. As far as Wales goes however, that is very much a product of the Welsh economy being based on mining. It is very dubious a proposition to suggest that Wales would still be turning a profit if it had kept that up til today under an independent government.

Moreover, this is perhaps somewhat facetious. I'm not suggesting that colonial rule should have continued until 2017 (indeed far from it, I feel it far more profitable to trade with independent nations, though I will admit to being appalled by some of the local practices in these countries), rather I'm suggesting that within their time the great colonial empires were not particularly unusual, nor were they the out and out negative they are so often taken as. In regards to industrial development my point is that the colonial powers built a great many things the locals were unable or unlikely to have built themselves.

If we look at how this development might have been faster, and ask why it was not, we can make some interesting points.

Firstly, taxation; colonial regimes were bound to a policy of low taxation in order to insure the cooperation of the locals, on which they depended (indeed, consciously so) for the maintenance of power, they therefore were unable to undertake a mass government stimulus of the kind independent governments could.

Secondly, domestic private investment; again we meet the problem of under-development, near universally the countries colonized had not progressed to a point where the industrial revolution had begun, in many cases they had not even formed credible nation states, so the investment burden fell overseas.

This leads to the third point, overseas investment; this had to carry the majority of the burden of development, but as mentioned earlier, it was only a drop in the ocean. Take the British Empire for example. Here you had an economy that was not yet fully developed to the standard it is today (i.e., there was still plenty of agricultural slack to take up in factories), and although the shift to service sector began in the late 1800s this was still a growing industrial nation. You therefore had a strong motivation to invest at home (where your investment was safer, in a more lucrative market place, accessible to skilled labour, and you didn't have to die of malaria), which detracted from investment overseas. At the same time however, even if everything had been invested overseas, you would still have had an unobtainable goal. Britain in 1914 had a population of around 46,000,000, whilst the British Empire as a whole numbered some 412,000,000; in other words, Britain was a tiny fraction of the Empire. You therefore had a (in population terms) relatively tiny and as of yet not wholly developed nation attempting to drag everyone else in the world up by their bootstraps. Obviously the idea was never going to work, because Britain simply didn't have the resources to develop the entire world to its own standard, even if it had given up on itself (indeed, even today, if one evenly distributed the world's GDP one would find a figure of only $15,000 a head, and that is with more development in the West, and the rest of the world becoming far less of a dead weight). Interestingly however, we can look to colonies that did become industrialized (namely the White Dominions) as part of this idea; namely, their lower population numbers and origin in the home country (bringing the pre-requisites for an industrial economy with them) helped to create advanced nations.

Finally, the fourth point regards the global economic climate; in the world post-1950, you had a situation were Western industry was in decline, partly because of a shift to the service sector, partly due to general economic development, and partly because Western government policies made places like Taiwan a far more attractive proposition (after all, who doesn't like paying their non-striking "Yessir" workers a penny a day). You therefore had far more potential for international investment, and indeed you also had loans from institutions like the IMF, plus the existing colonial era infrastructure to base development on.

Really my point as regards economic development is that the world simply was not advanced enough for the colonial project to ever hope to work in this way. And indeed, this flawed and wholly unobtainable vision is, I think, in itself, fundamentally and quintessentially Victorian. This was an age in which human development really took off, in which the great empires and nations of the world reached heights of which no previous people could have dreamed, and in which great feats like journeying across Africa, subduing an army ten times your own number with ease, or talking to someone on the other side of the world became possible, when 100 years earlier they would have been fantasy. In other words, it was an era in which the West believed it could and would achieve anything it wanted, if only it put its back into it. In this case, the idea was unrealistic from the start.

no surprise, colonialism back then and now was to exploit the resources of the colonies for the colonizer's benefit. They didn't care about anything that didn't affect significantly them making money.

This is outright untrue. A massive part of the colonial project involved educating the natives, building up the country to a European standard, and insuring modern institutions were in place. Even the Belgians, famed for their under-handed offhand cruelty, improved the Congo in ways; the literacy rate was one of the highest in Africa when independence came. Now, one could argue about the righteousness of turning up in someone else's house and telling them how to live, and one can certainly question the method of beating them with a stick everytime they failed to learn (personally, I liken this to Victorian parenting techniques; there is I believe more than a coincidental connection between the idea that children should be kept silent and caned for bad behaviour and the treatment of colonial people's looked on in a paternalistic manner).
 

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Of course workers stand to gain from increasing their productivity. Do a better job, company does better, boss notices you do better, boss gives you a raise/promotion, or at least that's the theory.

Let's see if I can remember the Soviet model off the top of my head.

In the case of the Soviet worker, this was true as well. If he produced more, he did get more money, but the way this was handled was a major flaw. Dealing just with the issue of wages/motivation here, I'll explain how. From the top, a central plan was handed down to tell the enterprise in question what to produce for that period. This production figure would be a target, and would be phrased in certain variables (i.e., produce 5,000 units, or 10,000 tonnes of coal, or 17,000m of telephone wire). Once production for the period was complete, then the government purchased all the production and passed it on to the commercial sector who had to sell it. On the worker's end, he received reward in two ways. Firstly, he was paid a standard wage based on his skills, his level of responsibility, and any hazards (this was not a flat rate and so certain workers were paid more than others). Secondly, he received a share of the 'profits' of the enterprise. These were calculated by looking at the planning target and seeing how much the factory had produced; excess production received more money which was then split between the workers. Amongst the issues of this system were that there was the previously mentioned deception over targets (so that a factory could turn a sizable profit without working to its full potential), and that instead of selling the enterprise had to meet arbitrary production targets (with the obvious implication that quality was completely unimportant, and in many cases a loss of quality was beneficial to the factory because cheap garbage guaranteed the same results as excellent quality but with half the effort or cost). The Soviet worker was therefore incentivized in a different manner to his counterpart in the free world; the latter was incentivized to be useful to his company in the hopes that he might receive a promotion, the former was incentivized to be as corrupt as possible.

In agriculture, there was a similar issue. Depending on the type of farm in question things differed. However, in the state farm, which was the main element after the collectivization efforts, there were two types of land. On the one hand, each farmer had his own little private plot in his garden or the such; on this he could grow what he liked, and he could also sell his produce on the black market (with food prices sometimes 10x their 'actual' value). This, predictably, saw the most activity. The state land meanwhile he was to farm in exchange for payment from the state, it therefore didn't matter what he produced, and mattered little if he produced anything at all, because the prices for the goods were set so artificially low it simply wasn't worth his time. The time working on state land therefore had to be enforced legally. Note that this didn't always result in catastrophic under-production; shortages were the norm but famines were not, in part because the under-performing agricultural sector was compensated for by other parts of the economy.

Different thing. What I'm talking about is worker motivation, not government intervention (though that can often be bad as well).
Moreover, I'd suggest you're misunderstanding me. Not all negative state intervention is Marxist in nature, but all Marxist regimes have intervened in their economies in a negative way. My point is not that Marxism is unique in this (though it does take it to an extreme), rather that it is a serial failure of Marxist government.


The issue you are referring to is one of price fixing and alternative economies not collectivization and it fails to comprehensively explain the low production as capital investment would have offset the motivational issue with increased efficiency. Again: the theory works in the 1920's and 1950's respectively.

All regimes have intervened in their economy in negative ways, the Marxist regimes in specific should if anything be applauded for their functioning state intervention, it took Russia 20 years to go from the middle ages to modernity and further, Chinas economy is going strong.
 

DoomBunny

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The issue you are referring to is one of price fixing and alternative economies not collectivization and it fails to comprehensively explain the low production as capital investment would have offset the motivational issue with increased efficiency. Again: the theory works in the 1920's and 1950's respectively.

This is untrue. Certainly, mechanization increased productivity. At the same time however, someone still has to climb on the tractor and do a day's work in it. The Soviet agricultural sector continued to under-perform, and shortages were the norm. Now, price fixing certainly had a lot to do with this, but collectivization was another flaw in the system. The two work together. Why would you spend more than the minimum mandated time to avoid prison on the land that isn't your own, when nobody else will, when you will only get a fraction of the profit, and when you can get a better price on stuff you grow privately?

Take an example. We have a state farm of 100 brave proletarians, each nobly struggling to do as little as he possibly can. Assuming the same amount of time spent to grow a crop privately or on the state land, and that Vladimir has already spent his mandated time working for the good of the revolution, Vladimir can make the following calculation on where he commits his efforts to grow his 10kg of extra potatoes.

State land: (3 rubles (state price) x 10 (kg of potatoes))/100 = 0.03 rubles
State land (assuming everyone puts in the effort, which is unlikely): 3 rubles (state price) x 10 (kg of potatoes) = 30 rubles
Private land: 30 rubles (market price) x 10 (kg of potatoes) = 300 rubles for vodka

Even if we assume the state lifts its price fixing (which it wont in a Marxist economy), then we have the issue that literally everyone must take part to the same extent in order to keep Vladimir's profit the same, if one slacks off then he looses out, and it gets worse from there as more people slack off. This assuming they're even able to beat the production target in the first place.

Moreover, farming the private land also has the benefit of insuring Vladimir doesn't risk going short; it takes care of him and his family because he can actually eat this stuff without the state coming, taking it away, and then selling it back to him for part of his pitiful farm wage.

This is one of the reasons that privately held land contributed a massively disproportionate share of agriculture across the Eastern bloc.

All regimes have intervened in their economy in negative ways, the Marxist regimes in specific should if anything be applauded for their functioning state intervention, it took Russia 20 years to go from the middle ages to modernity and further, Chinas economy is going strong.

On Russia, I'd suggest this is a massive over statement. Firstly, the assumption that Tsarist Russia was medieval is in itself deeply flawed, the economy was growing quite rapidly at times and industry was expanding, railway building in particular took off before the First World War. Secondly, the economic growth under the Soviet regime was actually far less dramatic than is made out. The main achievements were in heavy industry and armaments, which look impressive in GDP terms, but actually aren't that great in wider terms. This is before we consider the tremendous inefficiency of the Soviet model. The Soviet economy was hardly modern, lagging behind the West in pretty much every field.

On China, all I really have to do is point to when the growth took place. The Chinese economy was a wreck, much in the same way all traditional Marxist economies are, before reforms took place that gradually turned it into the powerhouse it is today. At the moment China is well past both the traditional and revisionist Marxist models (indeed, I'd suggest pretty much every remaining Marxist nation bar the Norks probably is).
 

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This is untrue. Certainly, mechanization increased productivity. At the same time however, someone still has to climb on the tractor and do a day's work in it. The Soviet agricultural sector continued to under-perform, and shortages were the norm. Now, price fixing certainly had a lot to do with this, but collectivization was another flaw in the system. The two work together. Why would you spend more than the minimum mandated time to avoid prison on the land that isn't your own, when nobody else will, when you will only get a fraction of the profit, and when you can get a better price on stuff you grow privately?

Take an example. We have a state farm of 100 brave proletarians, each nobly struggling to do as little as he possibly can. Assuming the same amount of time spent to grow a crop privately or on the state land, and that Vladimir has already spent his mandated time working for the good of the revolution, Vladimir can make the following calculation on where he commits his efforts to grow his 10kg of extra potatoes.

State land: (3 rubles (state price) x 10 (kg of potatoes))/100 = 0.03 rubles
State land (assuming everyone puts in the effort, which is unlikely): 3 rubles (state price) x 10 (kg of potatoes) = 30 rubles
Private land: 30 rubles (market price) x 10 (kg of potatoes) = 300 rubles for vodka

Even if we assume the state lifts its price fixing (which it wont in a Marxist economy), then we have the issue that literally everyone must take part to the same extent in order to keep Vladimir's profit the same, if one slacks off then he looses out, and it gets worse from there as more people slack off. This assuming they're even able to beat the production target in the first place.

Moreover, farming the private land also has the benefit of insuring Vladimir doesn't risk going short; it takes care of him and his family because he can actually eat this stuff without the state coming, taking it away, and then selling it back to him for part of his pitiful farm wage.

This is one of the reasons that privately held land contributed a massively disproportionate share of agriculture across the Eastern bloc.



On Russia, I'd suggest this is a massive over statement. Firstly, the assumption that Tsarist Russia was medieval is in itself deeply flawed, the economy was growing quite rapidly at times and industry was expanding, railway building in particular took off before the First World War. Secondly, the economic growth under the Soviet regime was actually far less dramatic than is made out. The main achievements were in heavy industry and armaments, which look impressive in GDP terms, but actually aren't that great in wider terms. This is before we consider the tremendous inefficiency of the Soviet model. The Soviet economy was hardly modern, lagging behind the West in pretty much every field.

On China, all I really have to do is point to when the growth took place. The Chinese economy was a wreck, much in the same way all traditional Marxist economies are, before reforms took place that gradually turned it into the powerhouse it is today. At the moment China is well past both the traditional and revisionist Marxist models (indeed, I'd suggest pretty much every remaining Marxist nation bar the Norks probably is).


Your calculations are momentary and does not explain the variable that offset productivity gains from capital investment. You may of course argue that the capital investments in agriculture in the USSR and China weren't sufficient, that explanation does however not directly relate to collectivization.

O + 1((1C) - (1S))

O = Output
C = Capital investments
S = Socialism
C = S

Capital investments in a Socialist/Communist republic are always Socialist/Communist therefore any Capital Invest will increase the amount of Socialism by the same amount. Because Socialism destroys Capital all Capital Investments made will be destroyed by the corresponding increase in Socialism.

We could call the state of the Russian economy Baroque if you prefer, I fail to see the difference. The economy was growing, industry was expanding and railways were being built as Abdul has noted. But those things are also as you put it, aren't that great in the wider terms. At least not from your perspective if your gripe is the shortcomings of the agricultural sector. In the wider terms the USSR was evidently capable of feeding, clothing, educating, putting roofs over heads and motorize its population. The scope of the USSR development which you focus on and debase is no different from the Tsarist development which you applaud.
 

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Your calculations are momentary and does not explain the variable that offset productivity gains from capital investment. You may of course argue that the capital investments in agriculture in the USSR and China weren't sufficient, that explanation does however not directly relate to collectivization.

O + 1((1C) - (1S))

O = Output
C = Capital investments
S = Socialism
C = S

Capital investments in a Socialist/Communist republic are always Socialist/Communist therefore any Capital Invest will increase the amount of Socialism by the same amount. Because Socialism destroys Capital all Capital Investments made will be destroyed by the corresponding increase in Socialism.

Ok, at this point you've lost me.

I don't see how any of this is relevant to the point; that Marxist agricultural policies disincentivized production and thereby created shortages. Even your point about mechanization (which I have answered) doesn't really fit; a tractor certainly allows you to produce more food for less effort, it does not mean you use the tractor to its full potential. You still haven't in any way addressed the point; that a farmer in the Soviet bloc and chums tended to have little motivation to actually work to his full potential.

We could call the state of the Russian economy Baroque if you prefer, I fail to see the difference. The economy was growing, industry was expanding and railways were being built as Abdul has noted. But those things are also as you put it, aren't that great in the wider terms. At least not from your perspective if your gripe is the shortcomings of the agricultural sector. In the wider terms the USSR was evidently capable of feeding, clothing, educating, putting roofs over heads and motorize its population. The scope of the USSR development which you focus on and debase is no different from the Tsarist development which you applaud.

In regards to the Tsarist economy, you are exaggerating my claims in the opposite direction. I said the economy was not medieval, which it wasn't, not that it was a prosperous system in which all had a merry time. Conversely, you also exaggerate the achievements of the USSR. In actual fact the Soviet economy struggled to do all these things. There were frequent shortages and queues, and in some cases, simultaneous over-stocking with warehouses full of goods that could not be sold because noone wanted them; they were junk. The important point here is not the direct comparison of the two, rather it is that the Tsarist economy was going somewhere, and if things had continued as they did one would likely have seen a Russia better off than it is today, whilst the USSR's achievements are exaggerated and indeed, were almost certainly not the best course for the Russian economy.