needing some obscure answers to questions about holy orders

[HybridRifter]

Have a few questions pertaining to holy orders:

First, curious to know what is the latest you guys have ever seen the holy orders (Christian) appear in a CK2 game? Has anyone ever played an early start game all the way through and not seen holy orders appear?

Second, I am wondering how heresies work in relation to holy orders. More specifically, if I have a holy order vassalizied, and I decide to adopt Cathar, or any other heresy, will I be able to convert the holy order to my new state religion, and if so how?

 

[RagingJaws]

Have a few questions pertaining to holy orders:

First, curious to know what is the latest you guys have ever seen the holy orders (Christian) appear in a CK2 game? Has anyone ever played an early start game all the way through and not seen holy orders appear?

Around year 1100. For the early starts, there are a number of triggers around 900AD that fire within three months to start the Catholic Crusades. I've never not seen the Crusades fire in early starts around that time, unless I go out of my way to invalidate them.

Second, I am wondering how heresies work in relation to holy orders. More specifically, if I have a holy order vassalizied, and I decide to adopt Cathar, or any other heresy, will I be able to convert the holy order to my new state religion, and if so how?

You can't convert Holy Orders IIRC. I've never really played around with Holy Orders.

 

[zharliette]

Second, I am wondering how heresies work in relation to holy orders. More specifically, if I have a holy order vassalizied, and I decide to adopt Cathar, or any other heresy, will I be able to convert the holy order to my new state religion, and if so how?

I might be wrong, but I think the holy orders convert to heresy only if the heresy becomes mainstream.

 

[Wagonlitz]

Second, I am wondering how heresies work in relation to holy orders. More specifically, if I have a holy order vassalizied, and I decide to adopt Cathar, or any other heresy, will I be able to convert the holy order to my new state religion, and if so how?

I might be wrong, but I think the holy orders convert to heresy only if the heresy becomes mainstream.

This. Unless they have changed it (haven't messed with holy orders for a few patches) a holy order only switches religion if you manage to get the heresy be the main religion. That by the way is the way to get the Catholic Holy Orders if you are playing Orthodox and mend the schism.

 

[Elordis]

Second, I am wondering how heresies work in relation to holy orders. More specifically, if I have a holy order vassalizied, and I decide to adopt Cathar, or any other heresy, will I be able to convert the holy order to my new state religion, and if so how?

Holy orders always follow mainstream religion in a group. So, they will become Cathar only if it becomes new orthodoxy. Them being your vassals doeesn't change anything.
But if they are your vassals, they will still be your vassals no matter your religion. It can lead to some hilarities like Catholic order being vassal of a muslim ruler.

 

[Dahoota]

I've never seen it happen but it is theoretically possible for holy orders of the major religions not to spawn: basically the religion has to already be so dominant that crusades/jihads don't unlock because they don't meet the requirements.

Most holy orders require crusades/jihads to be unlocked for their religion + have a min date when they unlock if other requirements aren't already met....for most I think that's in the 1100s and 1200s.

It can lead to some hilarities like Catholic order being vassal of a muslim ruler.

What happens then? No one can raise them? I imagine a grand master wouldn't stay a vassal for too long with heretic opinion malus and a high troop strength.

 

[Wagonlitz]

I imagine a grand master wouldn't stay a vassal for too long with heretic opinion malus and a high troop strength.

Unless they changed it holy orders actually end up not having that many troops in comparison to what else you can get, since their troop count doesn't increase with time. Just like how the Varangian guard ends up insignificant later on.

 

[FifthMonarchy]

You can still get the Miaphysite Holy Order (St Anthony) to fire well before the earliest crusade/jihad date of 900, as it happens any time so long as the faith holds three counties (Axum, Napata and Alexandria IIRC) and they county religion is Miaphysite. A cheesy way to do it even in ironman is to sart as the Tulunids and convert and there'll be a few decades where you have the Mamluks and access to your holy order and can steamroller the infidel Turnabout is fair play, as of course usually the opposite happens and Abysinnia falls in no time.

 

[Sergeant Flutter]

1: There are various triggers, if you're playing in the earlier starts, the Teutonic Order is likely to appear early on.

2: No. You'd have to become to majority.

 

[MichaelStakely]

I might be wrong, but I think the holy orders convert to heresy only if the heresy becomes mainstream.

The Catholic holy orders will also start as heretics if the heresy is already the mainstream when the Age of Crusades is declared.

 

[Wagonlitz]

The Catholic holy orders will also start as heretics if the heresy is already the mainstream when the Age of Crusades is declared.

Do they then never flip?
What about the Iberian orders who only come much later?

 

[MichaelStakely]

Do they then never flip?
What about the Iberian orders who only come much later?

Unless something has changed (possible as this was a while back), they still flip back if Catholicism becomes the majority again and all of them except the Teutonic Knights spawned at the same time in my game.

 

[Wagonlitz]

Unless something has changed (possible as this was a while back), they still flip back if Catholicism becomes the majority again and all of them except the Teutonic Knights spawned at the same time in my game.

What I meant is that you flip religion after the three major ones have formed (templar, hospitaler, teutonic), but before those two Iberian ones form. Would the Iberian ones then form as the new main religion, just not form, or form as catholic and never flip unless you flip to catholic and then back again. That was what I wondered about.