Need to be able to reveal TI in countries you have mil access to

[durbal]

Pretty lame to not be able to enter allied lands or cross TI (terra incognita) patches because hurr durr you have essential mil access but aren't at war with the country that holds that tiny TI patch.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I greatly dislike this also. You can enter enemy TI in war, but not allied TI in war. This implementation also breaks the rule of "army can go where its enemy can go" that is generally applicable to military access, and abusing it is even more of a "player knowing game rule interaction" than the older, more functional military access rule was.

Player that memorizes starting vision can easily stand in areas his opponent can't reach in some instances.

 

[Siu-King**]

Pretty lame to not be able to enter allied lands or cross TI (terra incognita) patches because hurr durr you have essential mil access but aren't at war with the country that holds that tiny TI patch.

cause they want you to buy that terrible garbage DLC that let AI spam Sow Discontent on you so you can Buy Map with prestige

 

[Cagliostro]

Think it's somewhat to avoid the exploit of just buying military access to everyone to explore. But an actual ally in a war should not suffer that, for sure.

 

[Siu-King**]

Think it's somewhat to avoid the exploit of just buying military access to everyone to explore. But an actual ally in a war should not suffer that, for sure.

tbh does it even matter if you somehow see Asia/India before spread of discovery?

There is not much to gain from it, except getting coalitioned by Sunni blob while you're removing them

 

[Cagliostro]

tbh does it even matter if you somehow see Asia/India before spread of discovery?

There is not much to gain from it, except getting coalitioned by Sunni blob while you're removing them

I mean, that's a reasonable argument that one could make, but traditionally there have been ways to exploit it. Even now there are events and such that trigger off of the east and west knowing each other, and you can also war a distant person and vassalize them, thus gaining a foothold of sorts. In the past there were more reasons to curb that behavior - you could annex distant vassals, for example.

The fact is that every way you can break the rules makes it harder to script things that rely on things happening a certain way. I mean, I don't personally care if they change the rule totally, but my real point was that at least for war allies I agree it's totally nonsensical.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Think it's somewhat to avoid the exploit of just buying military access to everyone to explore. But an actual ally in a war should not suffer that, for sure.

If that's the reason it's either a relic or durbal's point about DLC is accurate, because buying DLC should not replicate an "exploit", not that such a term is typically used in a respectable fashion anyway.

The implementation of "one-sided access is okay except when it isn't because reasons" doesn't work well for EU 4. Between forts, TI, and military access EU 4's movement rules have consistently regressed since earlier patches and that's pretty rough.

 

[Cagliostro]

If that's the reason it's either a relic or durbal's point about DLC is accurate, because buying DLC should not replicate an "exploit", not that such a term is typically used in a respectable fashion anyway.

The implementation of "one-sided access is okay except when it isn't because reasons" doesn't work well for EU 4. Between forts, TI, and military access EU 4's movement rules have consistently regressed since earlier patches and that's pretty rough.

'Exploit' means using the rules of a game in an unintended fashion that the designers see as antithetical to their design. Under some circumstances exploits can totally subvert game design, so that there's only one reasonable valid tactic. The concept of exploit is subjective, for sure - but I was using it in the context of 'i think the devs wanted to avoid that being the best strategy'.

Honestly as I said I don't mind if they change the rule - I agree it is overly restrictive, and I don't think it's gigantically game-breaking to loosen it. I was just making the point that 'not being able to discover your ally in an actual war when you need to' was far more dramatic than 'not being able to use MA to discover'. They had even made 'share maps' unavailable during war, and later amended that rule for that very reason (you should be able to ask your ally for relevant maps during a relevant war).

For the record though we disagree on a lot of things I also totally agree with you vis-a-vis forts - implementation of fort movement has always been sketchy, leads to insane consequences, and isn't all that fun (plus it definitely *seems* like the AI cheats rules you are bound to). The fact that you can move two armies to the same province, but then cannot move both of them in the same direction, feels totally broken as a game mechanic. ZOC works a lot better in a hex map than in a province-based game, and EU does not do a good job of communicating the actual rules for your current army, so you often have to just try different things to see if they will work. I like the theory of forts being a thing, and limiting fronts in that sense, but in practice it's kind of a huge mess.

 

[durbal]

'Exploit' means using the rules of a game in an unintended fashion that the designers see as antithetical to their design. Under some circumstances exploits can totally subvert game design, so that there's only one reasonable valid tactic. The concept of exploit is subjective, for sure - but I was using it in the context of 'i think the devs wanted to avoid that being the best strategy'.

The fear of exploiting this isn't even a real reason though. Just disallow non-conditional MA from entering TI. If you can't see their capital, you can't ask for MA. If your enemy can ask for MA, it means you get it too and can reveal TI with it. This would solve the ally problem too. I honestly have no idea why it's still not implemented.

 

[atwix]

its stupid that TI in an ally can lead to you not being able to cross/defend that ally.

in MP you can share maps, but in normal game....

i would make it so that any area you set foot in ally fight alongside with gets revealed.

It would actually help new players in MP that don't know you can share maps while at war