Need some pointers as JAP vs US

[Lord Solar]

Well, the title doesn't tell the whole story. I'm playing Japan, it's February 1942. China and Burma are conquered, India a puppet of mine, most of NEI under my control. I thought my naval techs and ship-building programme were decent enough or at least that was what I gathered from the encounters with British & CW naval forces, so I tried my hand at an invasion of Pearl.

However, when the US forces in that area met my invasion force, I was trounced, tabled, and decisively defeated. Later on, two smaller clashes around Guam showed the same result, and after just three battles, I hardly had a navy left to speak of.

At Pearl, the US forces had four or five CV's and four BB's with assorted escort ships while I fielded 6 CV's with perhaps a dozen or so newish escorts. The BB's had no problem to close the range and sink my ships. At Guam, the American CV's easily stayed out of range of my big guns.

So, the question is: Can this be all due to vastly better US naval doctrines? How do others go about the war with the USA?

 

[Traks]

Sounds like MP game
If it is not, AI is probably beaten already.

Your success also depends on what other Axis are doing.
Idea is to apply force where enemy has less than you.
If playing 1938 scenario, Japan has quite huge naval force. Put to build more CVs.
Make short work of Chinese.
In middle/end of 1940 it is good idea to join war with opening strikes against USA.
You should have around 12 CVs. Reorganize them in 4 fleets. Always go with 2 or 3 fleets together. 2 usually is enough.
Try to nab Guam and Wake while enemy is running unmobilized, using your 4 fleets.
If you have success and Hawaii has 1-2 Gar, go for it.
If it is properly defended, go for other targets.
Then, take a look.
UK and USA combined will have around 10-12CVs. Depends on their strategy.
That means they have to choose where to deploy forces, and you can choose where to strike.
If UK leaves Med undefended, Italy should act while Japan waits.
If UK leaves India poorly defended, take that.
USA is much stronger in long run, so Japan can't afford losses. Maximum 1:3, one lost ship for 3 sunk.
Roll out lots of convoys for your huge naval empire.
Catch enemy subs with DD+CL.
If you have already lost some major ships, it will be uphill hard battle.
Check if your Axis friends can put out more ships to match Allies.

If have questions, read our combined Axis AAR and ask questions.
Japanese player there is really experienced.

 

[Lord Solar]

No, this is single play, and I don't want to go back to 1938 or so. I already had to play as Germany for a couple of months because they had single brigades and leaderless HQ's all over the place and were completely out of shape for Barbarossa. With an improved OOB, Germany's doing just fine. I don't expect anything from her or Italy at sea though, that'd be preposterous.

The question is more whether I should even bother with Pearl when the US navy defeats me regardless. 12 CV's or 10, four stacks or two, in all honesty I think this is meaningless when her BB's open up in hour one of any clash. Add to that the fact that the AI CAG's are just as effective at 0 strength and Org and you might understand that I'm a bit at a loss. I lost nearly all my ships to a task force about the same size as mine.

 

[Traks]

I see.
Solution to some of your problems:
CV fleet should have no other big ships like BBs.
CV fleet is all about speed.
Try to do airstrikes from distance 1-2 seazones away, while your BB fight against enemy BB fleet.
Avoid places where enemy has land based airfields.
Good doctrines help.
In naval battles random is the king.

 

[Oof]

Its a bit overdue, but when i play as Japan the first thing i do when in declare war on the Allies and US, is invade Guam, Midway and Hawai. Another attack at the same moment is from Indochina towards the Dutch East Indies, the Philippines and the other islands. Robbing the US of its islands early in the war, is the key to succes in the Pacific. In preparation for this I try to upgrade 2-3 ports in the Pacific on strategic locations to lvl 10 ports (in the years 1936-1940).

In this case i think you waited too long with your attack on Pearl and the US are mobilised, expanded their carrier fleet and their nav techs are probably up to date (you can check this by logging in as the US). Its also very likely that they are building a huge modern fleet.

How to win? The only thing i can think off is taking out their fleet peacemeal. Pick your battles (only smaller fleets), stay close to lvl 10 ports for quick repair, and maybe your lucky and can destroy their fleet before new ships are launched en masse? But try to take Pearl and the Islands to the South (i.e. Chirstmas Island)ASAP

 

[jju_57]

Rule number one is to NEVER , EVER put BB's/BC's/CA's together with CV's.

If in doubt go back to rule number one.

Build a TF or two with just CV's and escorts. Use that to destroy the US fleet. Then you can send in the invasion force with BB's etc. Allied BB's can only close range with your CV's if they are faster than your fleet average speed.

 

[=Mike=]

Overproduce CAG's. As soon as they're low on org/strength, fly them back to lvl 10 airports and fly out new CAG's to replace them.
Once CAG's hit low org or worse, no org and low strength, your ships will be sunk very quickly.

Docterines help, up your doctorines that you require - but you won't need all of them.
Keep light fighter techs up to date (i.e. airframe) and also torp/light bomb techs.

I just played as Germany, and my 12 ship fleet (6CV's and 6 light cruisers) commanded by a lvl 9 Raeder obliterated a 57 ship US fleet (which included 6CV's at least as well) by sinking 40 odd of their ships to 0 losses of mine... (Raeder being awesome and small fleet had 140% positioning, whilst the US fleet had 2%). Oh, my CV's were crap tech (1918-1934), but the light fighter techs were researched ahead.

So during Chinese war use convoy raiding to up your surface fleet commanders abilities (I had Raeder with 2cv's and 2 light cruisers, at 1* admiral) to very high levels.

 

[jju_57]

I just played as Germany, and my 12 ship fleet (6CV's and 6 light cruisers) commanded by a lvl 9 Raeder obliterated a 57 ship US fleet (which included 6CV's at least as well) by sinking 40 odd of their ships to 0 losses of mine...

Just like the old MC Hammer song said "Can't touch this". CV's and excorts are immune to SAG's. Only other CV's and CAG's have a chance against them. The AI is stupid in making the super hugh fleets and for adding BB's etc to their CV forces.

 

[unmerged(261714)]

Can someone explain to me naval combat? cause in one of my games not too long ago i had SIX! count SIX CAGs attacking a japan fleet, and then i sent a fleet of 3 battleships and 4 destroyer groups to attack after 1 day of continues air attacks. and i lost the battle horendously!!! i lost most that fleet and the enemy lost none... i just dont get it... Its like me CAGs did nothing to the enemy fleet.

 

[unmerged(60162)]

My biggest naval problem (as Italy) is escort attrition. I started off mostly building destroyers as escorts (because Italy has a BB focused fleet), and I loose them at an amazing rate! I'll loose 2-3 DD groups, and still win battles, while not killing anything.

I'm upgrading to a CL/CV fleet focus, but it is taking time to build all the new CLs. Given their much higher sea defense, I imagine they will have a much better survival rate.

 

[Lord Solar]

Well...thanks for the replies, gents, but it appears to me that I did not properly explain the problem I faced:

My CV fleets were sunk by mixed fleets or SAG's. That means
a) Yes, of course you "can touch this". I am not sure where this misconception comes from because I see it happen in every single game.
b) CV's in "close combat" are not very effective. I imagine that if I had had some BB's of my own, they would either have drawn some fire or incurred some losses themselves.
c) Escorts die likes flies. At times, one side or both will have lost 3+ escorts when the screen pops up, ie. in the opening salvo.

-------
Ninja edit: This game is weird at times. I started the save again and this time tried a different approach. I still DOW'ed the US but invaded the Philippines instead of Hawaii, with a SAG and a CV TF around Guam. When the US navy approached, I suddenly won each and every battle, with the same ships, and the same doctrines, and the same leaders.

Having said this, there was one important difference, which is the presence of transports the first time around. Since they are the slowest ships around, and perhaps even because of the ongoing invasion, this is the most plausible explanation I can come up with.

While that finally makes sense, I did load up as the USA. They had a few fleets in ports on the West Coast but not a single ship at Pearl, Guam, Midway or in fact anywhere in the Pacific. However, after the DoW, more than 50 ships appeared in Agana Canal at Guam within 12 hours. Has she invented beam technology already?!? Because I can't believe her ships are that fast.

 

[Traks]

1. As I explained, random is king in naval battles. Lucky strike with 3 CVs can take out enemy 6 CVs like it happened in our MP game. Somebody was not happy at all. In SP reloading unlucky sea battle where you lost 0:20, can make it into 20:0.
2. For CV fleet most critical thing is average speed. If average speed is low, your CV fleet will be all dead. Always monitor that and assign slow ships to other fleets.
3. Ship speed in the game is much faster than RL for gameplay reasons. Yes, they are much faster than today's ships.

 

[Lord Solar]

I see. Then the presence of transports was what made my fleet a sitting duck.

The American fleet racing over the Pacific in no time was a first for me. Well, I'm not complaining - Agana Canal is littered with barely floating hulks and a decent number of artificial riffs. Now I'll just have to repair my CAG's. I knew they would suffer damage fast but for some reason didn't build enough spare ones.

Thanks again everyone!

 

[GAGA Extrem]

My CV fleets were sunk by mixed fleets or SAG's. That means
a) Yes, of course you "can touch this". I am not sure where this misconception comes from because I see it happen in every single game.
b) CV's in "close combat" are not very effective. I imagine that if I had had some BB's of my own, they would either have drawn some fire or incurred some losses themselves.
c) Escorts die likes flies. At times, one side or both will have lost 3+ escorts when the screen pops up, ie. in the opening salvo.

Positioning is critical for any battle.
A great example for this is the Battle of Samar. But I will come back to that game mechanic later in my posting.

First, about your statements:
(a) Yes you can, but a pure CV fleet under a good commander will usually start out of range. It can happen, but if your fleet setup is good, it won't happen too often.

(b) CVs are useless in close quarter combat, but, well, that's as it is. But remember that CAGs from CVs are always in perfect combat position no matter at what range your CVs start. Adding BB to a carrier fleet does not help. It worsens your positioning, making it more likely for your CVs to start at point blank range. On the other hand, a regular melee fleet will overcome your addtional BBs easily, so at best you will sacrifice some Battleships to get your CVs out of close combat (that was caused because you added BB in the first place). Which brings us to:

(c) Yes, they do. Escorts are fragile and easy to destroy and during a large battle, your escorts will be the first ships to go to the bottom of the sea. But, believe it or not: That is actually a good thing. Your escorts draw fire from your enemy and give your other units time to make their attack. In regards to your comment (b), that means it is actually more feasible to add a larger escort of DDs to your CVs intead of adding BBs. You can probably get around 6 DDs for the same hullsize of a single battleship - and while these 6 DDs might have less combined firepower, they will make the enemy spread his attacks and give your CVs the time to run they need. With some luck, you can disengage from combat fast enough and end up with a pack of (heavily) damaged DDs instead of several sunken capital ships. Oh and of course a large number of small ships provides better protection (more targets) and offensive firepower against enemy air attacks.

So always have several DD flottillas ready to replace your regular escorts. In general, I try to have twice the amount of active escorts as a reserve force on standby.


Positioning is critical for any battle.

I learned it the hard way when I was playing the US. I had a mixed fleet with 5 CV, 3 BB and 10 CL escorts - and was completly annihilated by a japanese fleet consisting of 4 BB, 2 BC, 4 CA and around a total of 20 DD and CL escorts.

The Japanese had taken my fleet by surprise, at least all my CVs started in firing range of the enemy - and before they were able to withdraw, Lexington and Enterprise had already sunk, while the three others suffered heavy damage. My BBs were overwhelmed quickly and sunk after 8 hours of combat, while most of my escorting DD spread their fire, causing little damage on the enemy. In the end I had lost all but 1 CV that managed to make it back to Guam.

I think I could have avoided that desaster if I had used smaller DD instead of CL and if I would have made a "pure" CV fleet instead of adding BB.

Keep your total hull size as small as possible while aquiring as much firepower as possible. If you exceed your hullsize limit, your forces will not only receive a combat penalty, but will also suffer from reduced positioning. You can still get lucky - like the Japanese did in the above example - but luck is no reliable combat factor.

In the end, HoI3 naval combat comes down to mass strike tactics. And while hull size penalties eliminate the classic BB, BC, CL or DD Zerg from HoI2, it does not prevent Carrier doomstacks. Remember that CAG on CAG duty (that includes their auto-attack during naval combat) suffer a smaller stacking penalty, hence you can stack over 30 CAG squads into a single battle without any real consquences.

Once you meet a fleet consisting of 12 CV and 12 DD on the open sea, you will understand what "overkill" really means. Against 24 active CAGs, your ships will sink faster than you can say "turkey shoot". And considering the enormous firepower of this fleet, it's hull size penalty is actually rather low. You could never ever achieve that with any other combination of ships...

 

[Lord Solar]

Quite so. When I thought aloud about adding BB's to my force, that was only in regard to the first battles at Pearl. Here, my positioning probably could not get much worse what with all the transports around. The US fleet was in range anyways. I had arranged my transport fleets around 1-2 CVL and some other escorts, and later on, some of these were sunk by capital surface ships, too. Which I found irritating, since a year before the same fleets could keep any RN ships at arm's length. Having said that, the US does have better doctrines than I do, at least for BB/CA positioning.

Hull size is an SF thing, yes? I'm playing 1.4 ICE.

 

[GAGA Extrem]

Quite so. When I thought aloud about adding BB's to my force, that was only in regard to the first battles at Pearl. Here, my positioning probably could not get much worse what with all the transports around. The US fleet was in range anyways. I had arranged my transport fleets around 1-2 CVL and some other escorts, and later on, some of these were sunk by capital surface ships, too. Which I found irritating, since a year before the same fleets could keep any RN ships at arm's length. Having said that, the US does have better doctrines than I do, at least for BB/CA positioning.

Hull size is an SF thing, yes? I'm playing 1.4 ICE.

Never, ever bring a knife to a gunfight and never ever bring transports to a real sea battle. Blockade Pearl Harbour with your main fleet and land from another angle, keeping a protective screen in the provinces around your TPs, but never group them into a huge stack with your main battle fleet.

Apart from that, yes, doctrines are extremly important and will mean the difference between victory and defeat.

And yes, hullsize was introduced in SF, complelty changing the way naval combat works.

 

[Der Kunstler]

Just like the old MC Hammer song said "Can't touch this". CV's and excorts are immune to SAG's. Only other CV's and CAG's have a chance against them. The AI is stupid in making the super hugh fleets and for adding BB's etc to their CV forces.

Good grief, I tried your grouping idea here and completely obliterated a US invasion attempt - amazing! US Transports and ships sunk everywhere.

 

[jju_57]

It has been proven over and over that a CV fleet with just escorts will never be in gun range for the enemy surface ships. The ONLY way for a surface ship to close range is if the average speed of the enemy fleet is greater than the average speed of you CV fleet. That is why it is VERY important to use fast CL's and DD's with the CV's.

The CV fleet will launch CAG attacks all the time and it is IMPOSSIBLE for the enemy to close range to hit you. This has been proven in tests over and over again.

The ONLY ways you can take damage is if your hull size is too big which means you are actually hitting yourself, or if the average surface fleet of the enemy is greater than yours. The final way is of course through enemy air power, either CAG's or land based.

BTW this means KEEP YOUR SAG FLEET AWAY FROM THE FIGHT. If you combine a SAG fleet and a CV fleet then there is a chance that your CV's will get hit. Don't do this. Think Midway battle. Let that CV and escort only fleet destory the enemy.

Finally, even if the enemy has better positioning it just doesn't matter. (taken from Meatballs). As long as you have a decent admiral and have no negative modifiers from hull size the enemy surface ships will not be in range. So 2 or 3 CV's with escorts is a sure winner agaisnt SAGs 100% of the time.

 

[Lord Solar]

Well, "never ever" and "only if" are somewhat mutually exclusive.

Anyways, during my invasion of Guam, the transport fleet had 2 CVL and some escorts. Because I couldn't repair my CAG's fast enough and because I needed some shore bombardment, I sent in a SAG as well, and I must say it worked quite well. I lost two older CL's but sank 2 BB, 4 CA and a handful of enemy escorts. Of course I had a bigger and better SAG than the US but this notwithstanding, I am not sure whether a protective screen around the province in question would work so well. First of all, there would be less ships in each province. Secondly, who says that I can intercept an enemy automatically? Thirdly, with transports around, a SAG can hardly make matters worse. They can't fight off CV fleets on their own, so shore bombardment and protection of an invasion are what makes them worthwhile.

 

[jju_57]

Well, "never ever" and "only if" are somewhat mutually exclusive.

Actually they aren't. The "never ever" applies if you follow all the rules and make the CV fleet the right way. The "only if" points out what happens when some of the rules are violated.

My point wasn't to say that the CV/escoort fleet was the only way to have success. It was to show the easiest and best way to make a fleet that was immune to surface ships and had the best chance for winning.