Need some advice for golden horde run

[HeyIAmInfinity]

Hi everyone, I need some advice on how to continue this run.



Current tech is 5-6-7, renascence embraced. No idea groups selected, Corruption due to debasing.
Force limit 58 with 7 state slot open. Just allied the ottomans but i could revert. Vassal Georgia, Iraq and OPM Khiva.

I've never played as a horde and what I've done until now was razing everything that wasn't a center of trade or a good goods produced province.
Was razing like this a good decision or should i raze everything?

Which kind of idea groups do you take as a horde?
Is it better to go conversion or humanism?
Where should i expand next as a priority? Should i kill the ottomans asap?
At what point horses will be useless and i should just go full infantry with cannons, if ever?
When would razing become ineffective? Should i reform my government then? Will this prevent the great khan achievement or the 200 province one?
Should i culture shift to Manchu in the future for banners?
As I pretty much killed Muscovy, should i take exploration or expansion to colonize the steppe, as nobody would?

Any other tips are appreciated.

 

[Sfan]

Raze everything. Always.

Top idea groups are Admin and Humanist. Between Horde Ideas and Humanist you have -10 years of separatism (Horde ideas are superior to Golden Horde ones), and you don't need Deus Vult, so Religious is clearly inferior to humanist as Hordes. Also, you expand too fast to convert, even with Religious and every possible modifier. Besides, Influence and Diplomatic are considered the best options.
No, if you managed to ally the Ottomans keep them around and use them to eat Europe and to prevent coalitions from forming (it will factor their strength when deciding to form a coalition or not).
Do not colonize the Steppes, that's worthless. Exploration will be needed if you want to WC as fast as possible because Terra Incognita will unveil too late. Else ignore it, you're not here to make money, goddamn, you're here to steal it. Do not state anything besides maybe your culture group, and goldmines anyway, all your money comes from gold mines, looting, peacedeals and trade.

Your next questions lead us to the debate of Horde play. Horde play becomes less and less effective. There are two ways of playing Hordes, either you WC before it becomes ineffective, or you switch to a normal gameplay by settling. Horde units stop being vastly superior pretty early and the bigger you are the harder it is to stay stable, but they have the best pre-Imperialism CB on everyone, and razing still brings something until tech 20ish. So Horde play is by far the best until 1500 and it slowly decreases until the late 17th century where it becomes pretty much useless. It's up to you. As it's your first real Horde run, I think you'll have to settle at some point, but the choice is yours. What's not yours however is how you should sette. There is no doubt that only 2 countries (which both require flipping to Uzbek culture) are the best choices to settle: Mughals and Yuan. They grant free claims on areas so big that you can eat them without any dipcost between the moment when you settle and the moment when you unlock absolutism. Also, TCs are totally broken. To form Yuan you need to collapse to an Eastern religion to claim Mandate however.

Else that's an excellent start. Good job!

 

[peterlj]

Aristocratic is a good early option for a Horde. Using it in my Mongolia run atm. Even Ming is a pushover with that cavalry

 

[Incompetent]

Also, TCs are totally broken.

Just to make it clear, this is an enormous incentive to keep your capital outside Asia. Rule one of 'Asian empire club' is 'don't be Asian'.

IIRC, Great Horde starts with a European capital, so the OP is good so far. If you form Yuan, it will move your capital to Asia, so you'd want to immediately move it out of Asia again. Looks like Mughals formation doesn't move your capital, so it's an easier option. (Don't take the decision to move capital to Delhi, it's a trap!)

Also, forming Yuan doesn't really help you conquer China, assuming you have Mandate of Heaven DLC. The key is to become Emperor of China (requires pagan or eastern religion), so you get the permanent claims and the juicy 'Unify China' CB. So there's nothing to stop an Eastern-religion country from becoming EoC and forming Mughals (in either order), keeping its capital outside Asia, and getting permanent claims on the bulk of TC-land while retaining the ability to turn it all into TCs. Alternatively, if you don't like the Celestial Empire government, you could fail to actually become EoC, but keep using the 'Take Mandate of Heaven' CB to take provinces off Ming at reduced AE and warscore cost.

 

[makaramus]

pick aristocratic+admin... if you like dont worry about picking espionage too since its reducing corruption + policy gives even more cavalary combat abilty(wich ... is your entire army )

also: if you ever decide to become monarchy I advice you to convert orthadox first... this grants you eastern tech group with cossacks wich means you will still benefit elite cav armies combined with your idea groups even after abandoning your old goverment

 

[Stanleykubrick]

Hi everyone, I need some advice on how to continue this run.

View attachment 313210

Current tech is 5-6-7, renascence embraced. No idea groups selected, Corruption due to debasing.
Force limit 58 with 7 state slot open. Just allied the ottomans but i could revert. Vassal Georgia, Iraq and OPM Khiva.

I've never played as a horde and what I've done until now was razing everything that wasn't a center of trade or a good goods produced province.
Was razing like this a good decision or should i raze everything?

Which kind of idea groups do you take as a horde?
Is it better to go conversion or humanism?
Where should i expand next as a priority? Should i kill the ottomans asap?
At what point horses will be useless and i should just go full infantry with cannons, if ever?
When would razing become ineffective? Should i reform my government then? Will this prevent the great khan achievement or the 200 province one?
Should i culture shift to Manchu in the future for banners?
As I pretty much killed Muscovy, should i take exploration or expansion to colonize the steppe, as nobody would?

Any other tips are appreciated.

I haven't played western hordes recently, but I have played eatern hordes (Oirat and Manchu)

First of all start with admin point focus and ALWAYS raze. That way you will generally have more diplo and military than you can handle.

Definetely start with humanism .
Getting it early on means that :
a) you will gradually use less and less points for future ideas.
b) You will save money - perhaps the most important factor for hordes! The reduction of seperatism and tolerance of heathens means that you will conquer and immediately reduce maintance to 0% untli you start another war, since you will practically never fight rebels.

After that the second idea should probably be aristocratic that will give you insane cavalry combat ability.
Do not bother with exploration, there is really no value to be taken from colonizing siberia. If you need to spend diplo, better ideas should be influence ( for vassal-feeding and annexing) or perhaps trade to get some more income.

Keep the ottomans as an ally, they will be your protection from coalitions or if you decide to expand more towards Europe. Priorities should be to expand towards the east and grab some gold producing provinces. Then boost their development to improve your economy.

About reforming the government do not consider this until razing becomes inefficient. This shouldnt prevent the Great Khan achievement but will diable the 200 provinces one.

As a final remark I agree with others on trading companies strategy. You do not get much from your provinces to begin with as hordes and trade companies can be invaluable to your income.

 

[Monzon]

DDRJake is in a current run on Golden Horde on very hard.

Maybe you could get some tips from his videos, even just some of the early ones:

 

[Sfan]

He's done with it.

He also probably plays too cautiously for a normal difficulty game (which makes sense for a VH run, that's how he's as successful on near impossible starts in VH). It's full on informations, still. And you have DDRvoice ♥

 

[bly08]

Admin first is usually better unless you can raze at a pace that makes adaptability only worth it for the coring duration and not the mana saved, so pretty much only 1.22 Timurids. I would take either Diplo/Influence second, never Aristocratic. Humanism third. With unrestricted idea groups you can go Admin/Humanism.

 

[makaramus]

Admin first is usually better unless you can raze at a pace that makes adaptability only worth it for the coring duration and not the mana saved, so pretty much only 1.22 Timurids. I would take either Diplo/Influence second, never Aristocratic. Humanism third. With unrestricted idea groups you can go Admin/Humanism.

I understand preferences of taking aristocratic but would you explain why "never"? O_O Since last patch its a good idea now especially for horde and poland

 

[bly08]

The ideas are weak. Cavs aren't worth their cost so no need to build any aside from raise host. 10% cav combat ability is very little either way. Autonomy reduction is pointless for hordes. Use edicts on gold mines and lower autonomy manually in trade companies when absolutism becomes available. Manpower shouldn't be an issue with tribe estate interaction and tributaries. The diplomat/siege bonus/leader without upkeep are nice but that's it. Hordes should delay mil tech as much as possible to get more razing gain. The mil idea group thus needs to make up for not being ahead on tech so Offensive is really the only choice considering it also has a policy that gives unrest/separatism reduction with Humanism.

 

[makaramus]

The ideas are weak. Cavs aren't worth their cost so no need to build any aside from raise host. 10% cav combat ability is very little either way. Autonomy reduction is pointless for hordes. Use edicts on gold mines and lower autonomy manually in trade companies when absolutism becomes available. Manpower shouldn't be an issue with tribe estate interaction and tributaries. The diplomat/siege bonus/leader without upkeep are nice but that's it. Hordes should delay mil tech as much as possible to get more razing gain. The mil idea group thus needs to make up for not being ahead on tech so Offensive is really the only choice considering it also has a policy that gives unrest/separatism reduction with Humanism.

actually you can incrase autonamy before absolutism to prevent rebellions and reduce it faster than usual thanks to that idea group. cavalary combat abilty is not huge but discount on cavalary is so good for hordes and siege is very problematic for hordes so doing that faster will prevent bad disaster you can hit
thats what I mean... yea its not "holy shit op idea group must picked" but its good idea for early game boost

 

[bly08]

It's 0.025/month or 0.3/year, by the time you have enough TC provinces for that to matter and after having moved capital to Europe as Asian horde, it'll be close to Age of Absolutism already. Hordes don't get autonomy reduction during war so no need to raise autonomy in order to lower it later. Autonomy won't be close to 10% anywhere.

 

[Sfan]

actually you can incrase autonamy before absolutism to prevent rebellions and reduce it faster than usual thanks to that idea group.

But you want high autonomy to debase and embrace. I agree with not taking aristocratic. It's thematic and that's it, else it's still pretty bad. Offensive is more useful to siege faster, and else Defensive and quantity are better.

 

[HeyIAmInfinity]

thanks everyone for your answers, i have a screenshot about 30 years later.



Also one thing that i forgot to mention is that i'm playing on patch 1.20 so aristocratic is not buffed.
Looking at the bonuses its seams that quality would be a better option, currently i went with influence and humanist.
I've read a lot about admin but i'm not sure it's actually worth the idea slot as i have already 25% CCR from the golden horde ideas. Sadly i couldn't roll back before the decision to keep the generic horde ones.

Also i am a bit lost on what i should prioritize next, the ottoman found out they wanted Mesopotamia and broke the alliance, i rushed the mamlucks to cut the off as much as i could.
My force limit is above 80, ottomans is above 90.
I'm cut off india by delhi which is allied with bahmanis, i can beat those with no problem but i fell like the ottomans might declare as soon as i enter a big war, same case can be said for Poland/Lithuania.
Novgorod and najd are vassals.

Also my route through the steppe now i blocked unless i fight Ming, could i even win a fight with Ming with half its troops?
Should i try to crush the ottomans asap so that i can focus on India next?
Is a detour to east Africa and gold mines worth it before 1600?
How should i fix my trade? All the trade from steppe goes to my vassal Novgorod now but soon that will just flow away, the best way to make money for me is Persia.
Is there a cap to how much land the tribes wants? it started at 30% i believe and now its at 50%.
Relating to exploration or expansion, i was thinking about those so that i could take some free land in the steppes and some land in Malacca, is it really not worth it even by mid-late game?
Would court and country be worth with a horde?
Should i convert to tengri for full cav stacks? Currently have 85%.

 

[HeyIAmInfinity]

One more thing that i forgot, when (in general) does europe get revealed for hordes? Something really strange must have happened in the hre, salzburg won 4 imperial liberation's war against austra.

 

[Sfan]

Well, having 50% CCR is better than 25% CCR. The more of any modifier you have, the more powerful it becomes. A 25% CCR reduces cost and time of coring by 25%. Another one reduces it by 33%, because it goes from 75% of the cost to 50%. You also have the mercenaries buff and interest per annum, both of which can be really valuable as a Horde. And the admin tech cost reduction to spend the less admin points possible over the course of the game, which is needed if you want to expand fast and hit Admin Efficiency on time/slightly ahead of time.

I'd suggest going for India, make TC, get filthy rich and use that to kill the Ottomans, ideally if they get into League Wars. Wait for opportunities of a tributary breaking up with Ming to annex them and get a border with Ming so that Unguarded Nomadic frontier starts ticking. It will make the war super easy. Set all their neighbour tributaries at special interest and create a popup for breaking tributary. This should happen eventually, it happened in all my games except one so far. That's the easy path for both Ottos and Ming, but you can carry your balls and destroy them right now, that's just a bit harder.
Generally speaking, it's still better to get stronger by getting smaller countries which can give you a higher income (typically India). Once you get TC all the trade will be fixed. You'll be able to create a road towards Persia from India into Samarkand into Persia, or India into Hormuz into Basra into Persia.
The use of exploration is really limited. It's undoubtedly inferior to influence, admin, diplo and humanist as a Horde, and by the time you get these 4 you'll need a military idea to balance things, probably. Good colonizable land is inacessible to you until you control India and can benefit from colonizing Indonesia, but by that point taking an idea group for money is a waste, you should drown in money.
Cav is expensive, especially merc cav. Having mercs infantry is good, at least to siege without losing manpower, so 85% cav is already a bit too much past very early game. I think staying Sunni is superior, especially to prevent coalitions.
C&C is less good now that you can't go over 100 absolutism, but still valuable to WC.
You can trade for maps/steal maps, but it's safer not to do so. If people don't see you they can't coalition you.

Edit: Oh wait you're on 1.20? You can go over 100 absolutism, so definitely go for C&C. And probably turn Christian asap actually if you really want to tryhard (and if that's not too late), to PU and later form Prussia for even more absolutism. 1.20 is really broken as a patch, doing WC is absurdly easy.

 

[Stanleykubrick]

thanks everyone for your answers, i have a screenshot about 30 years later.

View attachment 313491

Also one thing that i forgot to mention is that i'm playing on patch 1.20 so aristocratic is not buffed.
Looking at the bonuses its seams that quality would be a better option, currently i went with influence and humanist.
I've read a lot about admin but i'm not sure it's actually worth the idea slot as i have already 25% CCR from the golden horde ideas. Sadly i couldn't roll back before the decision to keep the generic horde ones.

Also i am a bit lost on what i should prioritize next, the ottoman found out they wanted Mesopotamia and broke the alliance, i rushed the mamlucks to cut the off as much as i could.
My force limit is above 80, ottomans is above 90.
I'm cut off india by delhi which is allied with bahmanis, i can beat those with no problem but i fell like the ottomans might declare as soon as i enter a big war, same case can be said for Poland/Lithuania.
Novgorod and najd are vassals.

Also my route through the steppe now i blocked unless i fight Ming, could i even win a fight with Ming with half its troops?
Should i try to crush the ottomans asap so that i can focus on India next?
Is a detour to east Africa and gold mines worth it before 1600?
How should i fix my trade? All the trade from steppe goes to my vassal Novgorod now but soon that will just flow away, the best way to make money for me is Persia.
Is there a cap to how much land the tribes wants? it started at 30% i believe and now its at 50%.
Relating to exploration or expansion, i was thinking about those so that i could take some free land in the steppes and some land in Malacca, is it really not worth it even by mid-late game?
Would court and country be worth with a horde?
Should i convert to tengri for full cav stacks? Currently have 85%.

Looks like you got a bit greedy with those Egyptian and Mesopotamian provinces.

I would suggest considering becoming a tributary to Ming. Sure, you will lose monarch points, but:

a) it will open expansion routes to the east. They dont care if you eat all their tributaries!
b) you would be safe from the Ottomans and arguably any coalitions in India should you expand there.

 

[Sfan]

Hordes do not bow to the fake Emperor of China.

On a more serious note, I don't think that's needed, he's strong enough.