Need help with trading

[Th3R10t]

Simply put, I feel like I'm not getting nearly as much money as I should be able to out of my trade network. Despite controlling Ethiopia, Cape of Good Hope, Zanzibar, Gulf of Aden, Malacca, Philippines, Zambezi, The Moluccas and more, I'm only getting about 72 ducats per month. I am aware that I am collecting trade in way to many locations, but trying to change that has somehow reduced my income. My capital is in Ethiopia, and for various reasons, I will be moving it to Alexandria later. I would rather avoid more wars of expansion, especially with larger powers as I am busy gearing up for what will probably be the biggest and most important war of the entire campaign.

Spoiler

The mod I'm using will allow me to form Israel if I take the right provinces, and that has been the entire goal of this run. I hope to take it all from the Mamaluks in one go, but we'll see.

Please note that I do not have DLC. There is one mod used in the save file:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=808088377
For anyone who may be wondering, this is actually a continuation of this run:
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...-with-mamaluks-until-ready-as-semien.1382139/
How I got out of that situation:

Spoiler

Turns out diplomatic reputation and opinion play a big role in reducing the chance of being rivaled. So I went back to 1503, cancelled the diplo-annexation, and to avoid AE with the Mamaluks while still expanding, I used a colonist to get claims in Madagascar and the rich Zimbabwe area, both of which are mostly Fetishist. Add in a royal marriage by waiting for the moment they finished annexing a vassal, and eventually the Mamaluks agreed to ally. The unfortunate side effect of this is that with my backing they were unopposed, so now we are the two most powerful countries, though I am the stronger one now. I just rivaled them and plan to attack within 25 or so years, probably less.

On a side note, is there a way to make it say something other than "spoiler" in the spoiler box? I mostly use them for less important things people care less about, and on some other forums there are ways to change what it says.

 

[Iferius]

With no DLC to move your trade capital and no intention to move your capital for trade, I do not know how to improve this.

 

[Lightwell]

It's going to be like that until you start transferring trade to your home node.

 

[PhoenixG]

I try to look at your save file, but I don't know if it's because the lack of dlc or the mod that cause it. All the subjects that you have are free in my game, so I can't fiddle around the trade.
But the thing I can say is that the 72 ducat that you get is quite decent for what you have. Be main problem is you don't really control those node as you claim. While some node you do have a decent amount of power the bottom line is you're sharing it. And you don't really control enough power to make transfering worthwhile. If you really want to make more money you'll need to kill those so you can setup a chain to transfer to a node instead collecting everywhere.

 

[RobbieAB]

You can’t steer Zanzibar north so trying to move that to your home node is a bust.

Bringing Malacca trade to Aeen requires passing it through India, so that is also a bit of a bust.

If you are prepared to drop your plan to move capital to Alexandria, I would suggest attacking Spain for their South African provinces, and moving capital to the Cape allowing you to steer everything to it. Then start eliminating all the people messing with your trade nodes!

 

[Th3R10t]

I try to look at your save file, but I don't know if it's because the lack of dlc or the mod that cause it. All the subjects that you have are free in my game, so I can't fiddle around the trade.
But the thing I can say is that the 72 ducat that you get is quite decent for what you have. Be main problem is you don't really control those node as you claim. While some node you do have a decent amount of power the bottom line is you're sharing it. And you don't really control enough power to make transfering worthwhile. If you really want to make more money you'll need to kill those so you can setup a chain to transfer to a node instead collecting everywhere.

I suppose I can clear the Malacca and Moluccas trade nodes with the exception of the small islands that are being colonized by Castille. On the long run I may be able to take the rest of the Cape of Good Hope from Castille, and use steer trade to it. That was my original plan, since it is relatively easy to control, especially with some light ships thrown in. Would that work? Also, is assigning strategic trade provinces to the merchant estate a good idea? Estates are probably the part of the game I least understand, but since they will be changed in the next patch, I've decided to make do without them until it happens, rather than learn to use them now and then need to relearn it all again soon. What percentage of power should I aim for before transferring?

 

[Th3R10t]

You can’t steer Zanzibar north so trying to move that to your home node is a bust.

Bringing Malacca trade to Aeen requires passing it through India, so that is also a bit of a bust.

If you are prepared to drop your plan to move capital to Alexandria, I would suggest attacking Spain for their South African provinces, and moving capital to the Cape allowing you to steer everything to it. Then start eliminating all the people messing with your trade nodes!

Was hoping to just need Cape, but if need be, Castille has quite a few things I want. Only problem is they are allied with England, who aren't as powerful as usual, but still a pain. Since the mod is for forming Israel, which will move my capital to Jerusalem, and moving it from there after just feels wrong, I don't think that plan is going to change, but if I have used the Cape of Good Hope to collect in past games without moving my capital. Oh, and Castille took the wrong choice for the Iberian wedding, so that makes things easier. Honestly, between that and the Ottomans being wiped out without any player intervention in under 120 years, this has been a weird game.

 

[PhoenixG]

I suppose I can clear the Malacca and Moluccas trade nodes with the exception of the small islands that are being colonized by Castille. On the long run I may be able to take the rest of the Cape of Good Hope from Castille, and use steer trade to it. That was my original plan, since it is relatively easy to control, especially with some light ships thrown in. Would that work? Also, is assigning strategic trade provinces to the merchant estate a good idea? Estates are probably the part of the game I least understand, but since they will be changed in the next patch, I've decided to make do without them until it happens, rather than learn to use them now and then need to relearn it all again soon. What percentage of power should I aim for before transferring?

If you fully control a node, ships are useless. The more trade power you have the less effective your ships will be. Pretty if you have 80%+ ships aren't not worth it, unless the node itself is very rich.
For min-maxing merchant on trade province is good, but the effect itself isn't that big in the big picture. Like if you put it in a province with 10 trade power, it will only give you 5 extra trade power. And like with ships the more you control a node the less effective it is

 

[RobbieAB]

If you can move your trade port separate to your capital (someone mentioned earlier that is a DLC feature) then I would say go for it.

The problem with the Spanish presence in the Cape is trade leakage: their provinces all represent a small amount of trade value leaking. It also leaves your trade capital quite exposed. These aren’t issues for a trade company pull through game, where the goal is 51% of province trade power and no value retained. If you are putting your trade port there your goal is 100% trade power and no value leaked!

Once you have the Cape set up steer everything there and start hunting down causes of leakage in the Cape and in other links in the trade chain.

 

[Th3R10t]

If you can move your trade port separate to your capital (someone mentioned earlier that is a DLC feature) then I would say go for it.

The problem with the Spanish presence in the Cape is trade leakage: their provinces all represent a small amount of trade value leaking. It also leaves your trade capital quite exposed. These aren’t issues for a trade company pull through game, where the goal is 51% of province trade power and no value retained. If you are putting your trade port there your goal is 100% trade power and no value leaked!

Once you have the Cape set up steer everything there and start hunting down causes of leakage in the Cape and in other links in the trade chain.

If you fully control a node, ships are useless. The more trade power you have the less effective your ships will be. Pretty if you have 80%+ ships aren't not worth it, unless the node itself is very rich.
For min-maxing merchant on trade province is good, but the effect itself isn't that big in the big picture. Like if you put it in a province with 10 trade power, it will only give you 5 extra trade power. And like with ships the more you control a node the less effective it is

I suppose one more thing that can help is more manufactories, as not all the high value provinces have them yet. Honestly, just by looking at the numbers, it looks like fully clearing the nodes will help, but my main issue is often "transfers from downstream" which I can't really do much about without ending up in an endless wild goose chase. Unfortunately, both trade companies and moving my trade city require Wealth of Nations DLC. I would have taken advantage of both if I could. Since I have other priorities at the moment, it looks like I'll have to make do for now, but I have 150 years left to deal with it. Regardless, I knew this wan't going to be the hundreds a month from my "All your trade are belong to us" run with Spain, but if I can get to 150 a month by the end of the game I'll be pleased. Does that seem like a reasonable goal?

 

[PhoenixG]

Yeah, transfers from downstream is a pain to deal with and often the only way to deal is to kill those countries. Reason why the cape and zanzibar are very valuable. If you fully control the cape, zanzibar won't leak any trade money

 

[RobbieAB]

If you fully control the node, crushing the downstream transfer shouldn’t be that hard. I mean, if Lubeck can be made the most valuable trade node with the Baltic as number two, that suggests the English Channel isn’t stealing that much... and I did that as commonwealth.

 

[Th3R10t]

So since it isn't ironman, I decided to experiment. Using console commands, I gave myself most of the missing provinces in Malacca, Moluccas, and Cape. Also moved my capital to Cape and put all my light ships there for good measure. Then I tried directing trade to it and... less than 80, not worth the effort. I see what you're saying about downstream not being an issue and it hasn't been too much of one in past games, but I'm starting to wonder if I am just best off collecting all over the place unless I can fully secure a path to an end node, or get DLCs. It's worth noting that in past games I would only end up collecting in the Cape in lategame, backed by up 250 trade power from light ships or more, so I may get closer to my expectations once light ships get powerful enough to simply overpower downstream trade and I replace my outdated ones. I know that securing Alexandria is a nightmare due to being upstream from half the Mediteranian, so when I move I will transfer from Ethiopia toward Zanzibar, where I am close to 90%, and most of the rest is my vassal. One of these days I'll go for India and Bengal, but this time I want to ally the yellow country with the unpronouncable name there. While it's easy to be the most powerful in the Cape due to the low amount of provincal trade power, this also makes it vulnerable to downstream trade.

 

[Republic of Mercury]

Instead of collecting in Cape and using 250 light ships to add power there, you're better off controlling all of cape and then collecting in Zanzibar.

ps: Vi-jay-an-a-gar. Vijayanagar.

 

[RobbieAB]

How do you route Malacca to Zanzibar?

 

[Republic of Mercury]

How do you route Malacca to Zanzibar?

Via India.

Malacca used to go to Zanzibar instead of straight to the Cape of Good Hope, but it was changed as a mild nerf to the "control cape + collect in Zanzibar" thing.

 

[Th3R10t]

Instead of collecting in Cape and using 250 light ships to add power there, you're better off controlling all of cape and then collecting in Zanzibar.

ps: Vi-jay-an-a-gar. Vijayanagar.

I will probably collect in Zanzibar regardless, but even my plans didn't involve allying Vijayanagar, I still don't know if I'd be up to taking 2 nodes in India and the Bengal node, which Malacca goes through first before India. Honestly, I only have been playing since 1.28, but if Malacca used to go to Zanzibar, I can see why it got nerfed.
Also, I meant 250 power from ships, so 50 ships X 5 power per ship in lategame, not 250 ships. In total my lategame trade fleets are often up to 100 light ships total if I have the force limit to spare. In the past, if I didn't get a chance to take the Cape, I just collected in Malacca.

 

[RobbieAB]

Via India.

Malacca used to go to Zanzibar instead of straight to the Cape of Good Hope, but it was changed as a mild nerf to the "control cape + collect in Zanzibar" thing.

That route doesn’t work well if you don’t control India...

If you end up collecting outside your home node, you do better moving the trade port to the contested node and using the merchant to collect in the node with 90%+ trade power.

 

[Republic of Mercury]

That route doesn’t work well if you don’t control India...

If you end up collecting outside your home node, you do better moving the trade port to the contested node and using the merchant to collect in the node with 90%+ trade power.

I didn't mean collecting in Zanzibar to get the money from malacca, I meant collecting in Zanzibar to make money in general. If you're set on trying to get a good profit from malacca, then you'll want to conquer the ivory coast.

 

[Th3R10t]

So here's an update: Around 15-20 years have gone by.

Spoiler

The war with the Mamluks was a big success, I got the entire Red Sea coast along with my goals, split their country in 2 and 7 years after the war they still have some of the rebels I left behind.

My trade income seems to have magically increased to just over 100. No idea how, I mean I did throw in a few more workshops and factories to increase the value of my nodes, but not nearly enough for that much improvement. It may have a bit to do with the expansion of my colonies, as well as the fact that I got another merchant or 2 and started transferring from nodes I get power in from downstream myself, since I have more merchants than I need at this point. I have been collecting in Zanzibar the entire time, BTW, 40% or so of my trade income comes from there. Regardless, now that my main target is out of the way, I'm starting to finish clearing trade nodes. I just took all but one province in Philippines, and much of Malacca will likely follow.
Edit: Make that over 110 in 1695, an average of +10 every 5 years, looks like I'll reach my goal easily. Unfortunately, It'll drop soon when decline of the spice trade fires, but, even if I have no idea how, things seem to be working out.

Update 2: 180+ from trade in 1717. I think I'm satisfied.