Need help with managing air force

[Gunnarr]

Here is my situation.

Image of OOB: http://i.imgur.com/EYHWdtN.jpg

I am using the Fox and Lion mod. I did not join the axis, and declared war on Vichy France (which only held African lands now). I am not part of allies though at this time.

My air force is up to date, with even radar assistance mounted on interceptors.

For my borders on germany and occupied france have these characteristics:

Bordering Germany:

Level 4-5 Heavy AA
One installation of level 4 Radar on northern most province.
Various fort levels

Air force in that Army Group is 6 interceptors and 4 tactical bombers.

Bordering Occupied France:

Level 4-5 Heavy AA
One installation of Level 3 Radar on Mid section of border
Various fort levels

Air Force in that Army Group is 2 interceptors and 5 naval bombers. (Closest airport to border is level 2, holding 2 interceptors.)

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Experiences regarding Air Force:

I tried to use it manually, but I cannot do it effectivaly. I do not know how to use the air force properly. I felt obligated to go speed 1 to use intercept commands on the interceptors. But I did not do it very well, they always got off their bombs. I don't know how you are supposed to do it manually, so can anyone give me tips on air force without AI?

In frustration, I put the eastern air force under that Army Group, and then put that Army Group under AI control , set to defensive. I did the same with western air force, put it under that army group and put it on defensive AI.

The German bordered air force did very well, intercepting their bombers immediatly when they came, inflicting heavy damage with minimal losses. Their first ground attack was a failure, being beaten on ground and air.

But for the western border against Occupied France, my two interceptors are heavily damaged, and the airport is being bombed by 6 close air support squadrons.

This is where I am having trouble again.

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I want my eastern air force to help in the west when they are needed. Basically, I Want it so my air force will defend wherever we are attacked in the northern Italy. But currently all that is happening it appears the air force is simply defending their own army group. I need a way to help in the west, I cannot have them bombing me like that.

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My attempt to fix things:

I tried putting all air force under the theatre command, and put that in AI defensive. But then the AI did not hold formation, and started attacking and rearranging. So I quit. Can anyone give some advice as to how to manage my air force effectivly against these germans?!

Tips for doing it without AI would be great as well! But if you know how to make it so the AI would do what I want, please say it!

Thank you

 

[21oliver]

The AI typically does a pretty good job with the Air force. What exactly do you want it to do? If you want to protect yourself, build INTs and group them 2-4 and run air intercept missions over key areas. If you want air units to support your invasions, simply assign TAC's / MR's / CAS to either your Theater or Army Group Commander, and make sure they are on "offensive" for the orders. Thats pretty much it...

 

[marxianTJ]

Doing it manually - because I'm psychotic and like to do it that way (I find the AI hates the way I like to set things up lol - usually regardless of what I set it to the AI just puts my air units in some pile somewhere and it doesn't use them or refuses to, just to irritate me).

Basically, you're going to get hit by bombs. That's just the way of the world. It's not that big of a deal unless your MP is at 0 and you intend to try to go on the offensive and you don't have forts building in the queue lol.

Your best bet is to slow game time down to 2-3. and in the quick menu on the top right, there is a thing you can turn on to be notified of all hostile bombings, then you just set your interceptor groups to some hotkeys (cntrl + #), and send them on intercept missions to the affected provinces.

Against Germany, unless you've been hording INTs the whole game, you're not going to be able to man-handle the luftwaffe. Just keep building a few more INTs here and there, and keep your stuff up to date, and it will get better. If they're hammering your air bases, you may want to either send some other INTs over the top of it to guard it, or consider building further away - especially if they're only using CAS to hit it, their range tends not to be too good.


As far as stacks and how to organize -

You want your INTs *at least* under army group command - you can go lower if you like (and they get the associated bonuses).

You can shove more wings into a stack the higher your pilot training goes - it's a "feel" kind of thing though - never go over 5 wings in a stack, and experiment with wings of 3-4 prior to your 1942 techs getting researched (I find, anecdotally of course that a good ol' 4-5 stack seems to start to show its superiority around that level).

One last thing to be mindful of, is that occasionally the AI will get really smart, and set its own INTs to hover over your air fields on air superiority missions (a very human thing to do!) - if that occurs you'll have to call INTs from another air field to chase them off or anything trying to land or take off from that air field will get thrown in the dumpster.

 

[Kovax]

There's a stacking penalty that affects ALL planes in a group, which increases by 10% for each plane added (including or excluding the first plane, depending on the mission type). That means, each additional plane will add less and less to total firepower up to around the 5th plane, and either the 6th or 7th will actually begin to DECREASE total firepower. On the other hand, adding more planes spreads out incoming shots more, so your individual aircraft take less damage. The more planes, the lower the efficiency but the more resilient, so it's always a trade-off.

1 plane @ 10% penalty* = 0.9 total firepower (* = some missions don't count the first plane for stacking)
2 planes @ 20% penalty = 1.6
3 planes @ 30% penalty = 2.1
4 planes @ 40% penalty = 2.4
5 planes @ 50% penalty = 2.5
6 planes @ 60% penalty = 2.4
7 planes @ 70% penalty = 2.1

The penalty is capped at 80%, so if you add something like 13 or more planes, you can actually get more total firepower than with 5, but the efficiency per plane is so abysmally low that I really can't see "doomstacks" being practical compared to rotating between 2 or 3 groups of 4 or 5 planes.

I prefer 3 per group, which is a "reasonable" compromise between efficiency and durability, since if I accidentally end up with two groups in the same province, the stacking penalties won't render them toothless. Sometimes, particularly against a fresh and strong opponent like the UK, I'll run 4 to a group for the increased survivability, and against weak opponents may lower it to 2, because survivability isn't an issue and the higher per-plane efficiency allows for coverage with less planes.

 

[Gunnarr]

Hey guys after some sleep I read all your replies ! I think this will help a lot!

And about what I wanted ai to do,

I wanted my eastern interceptors to quit sitting inthe airport and go fly over to the western border to help since they were being bombed

Anyway, the first incursions seemed to be nothing compared to the full force of the german Luftwaffe, I underestimated their power and didn't think they would. Have such a large force on my front, I imagEd they would be busy against Russia or Britain.

They sent a stack of about 11 , with few bombers and close air support, and about 4-5 interceptors. They ripped my group of 4-6 interceptors a bit after a few engagements. Now they have free reign over there while I pulld me back to repair.

Ai when left to won devices, while being able to intercept effectively, seemed to like sending my interceptors in suicide missions. Or going into german airports, despite being on defensive. Also yes, they did send interceptors to my airports, it was very stressful! I moved them to Rome after they did that to repair

Ok. I have a few questions now

One states that to put interceptor on air intercept over key areas. Does that mean like putting a group of 3-5 planes on intercept over the places they often bomb me? On continuous day and night? Or would that make my fighters lose all their organization?

And what is difference of air intercept and air superiority.

In the other thread about radar, people said stationary heavy Aa does not do much. I don't see any way to see how much damage they do, so perhaps they are right, I mean I am not seeing anything getting damaged heavily

I tried putting a seven brigade division of AA (taken from coastal guards in the south) on my Venice airport to dissuade bombing on there and fighters going there. Does army AA affect air battles which occur over the provence? Say between two interceptors? or do they even do damage to close air support, who are bombing the airport/planes and in combat in air battle?

 

[21oliver]

And what is difference of air intercept and air superiority.

Air superiority they will respond when bombers come, it saves on resources.

 

[marxianTJ]

Isn't it the other way around? Intercept they only fly out when something is in the province, superiority they will fly out constantly until de-orged/destroyed.

I wouldn't worry about de-orged fighters. As Admiral Kuznetsov always said "Ships look nice on review, but they are built for fighting." An INT that doesn't INT because you want to preserve it is just as much a waste of resources as a de-orged, damaged INT lol.

What I do is hotkey my interceptors. When they bomb a province, I select a hotkey, review what that unit is doing, and if I like changing whatever its doing, I set the thing to intercept, round the clock (I don't mess with the clock any because I'll manually cancel the mission if I see them getting beat up too badly or the province not being bombed).


IMO fixed AA is useless - it provides you with less practical than building a single AT (which is cheaper than the fixed AA) and it only attacks when that very province is attacked. So you're better off putting your 3 or so IC into more INTs or air fields lol. It's not that far out from RL though - IRL fixed AA was only used to force planes to fly higher, and thus be more inaccurate with their bombing attempts - it was pretty rare for planes to actually be destroyed by ground fire (because it's immensely difficult to shoot a thing out of the sky from a mile or more below it).

I'm fairly sure AA of all types only attacks when it, itself, is attacked, so an air battle between fighters overhead would be unaffected.

 

[Gunnarr]

uh oh,

diverging information about intercept and superiority

hahaha oh hotkey good idea, never thought to use that outside of games like... Warcraft III... lol

 

[Pugmak]

Radar: Radar serves to different functions in HOI3.

1. Radar as aid in intercepting bombers.
Radar, when used as aid against bombers, only aids intercepts in the province it is situated in, and, iirc, those immediately adjacent to that province. So, spread them out. Also, you need to research a tech in the Air Doctrine tab that starts, at least for Germany, at 1918 level. It's in the intercept/fighter column of techs.

2. Radar as an "intel gathering station". If you put a stack of radar somewhere on your border, you get a rather clear picture of what your neighbors are up to in regards to moving ground units around. Sometimes it works in keeping track of ships too, if you get sea area covered by your radar stack. A 10 stack of radar at, say, Wilhelmshaven, will clear "fog of war" all the way to central Britain, both Netherlands and Belgium and a good portion of northern France.

re: Intercept vs Air Superiority.

Aircraft (fighters or interceptors) set on Intercept will sit idle until alerted by enemy aircraft in whatever zone you set up for those aircraft to cover. Then they will fly off to intercept. You can set each group of aircraft to cover specific areas (I prefer the circular zone of responsibility setting with no more than half the aircraft's range) on the order menu when you right click on a group of aircraft. Those aircraft will then operate on their own. If you assign the aircraft to a command and then set the command on AI to manage your interceptors, the AI will move your aircraft from airfield to airfield as it sees fit and with the changes to how org is lost due to moving airfields, that can really hurt your air defense. When setting your orders for intercept, it's best to pick either passive or defensive (I can't recall which is the uber best) so that your aircraft don't fight to the death. That can get expensive quickly. Also, set the option to both day and night as you never know which time the bombers will come at you.

Air Superiority is a constant combat patrol over the assigned area. It's best, imo, to use to groups to cover the same area, one set on day and one set on night. That way, your day patrol can get some repair work done during the night and if your night patrol gets beat up, you can switch flight clock setting between the day and night groups. (not sure it's still the case where aircraft only repair and replace during night part of the clock. Or, actually, if that was ever even the case. Lots to keep track of that's not actually spelled out clearly in the game so easy to get confused.)

Air Superiority is useful in both getting your fighter/interceptor aircraft shot to **it, and keeping enemy fighters/interceptors suppressed in the area you are putting your bombers to work. Another helpful practice in suppressing enemy air is to bomb the crap out of their runways. You don't dmg grounded enemy aircraft by bombing runways, but a heavily damaged airfield does not repair the aircraft stationed on it so attrition adds up quicker.

 

[Kovax]

Air superiority is good for running directly over the airfield where enemy bombers are coming from. As soon as they take off, your planes will hit them, then hit them again when they return from their mission. The down side is that you're keeping the planes flying continuously during that whole period, so repairs are reduced for day or night, or nil if using both.

Air Intercept sends your planes up anytime enemy aircraft are spotted in the area being covered (you can choose a province, or use the various coverage shapes to define a larger area), or over your own airfield. If you manage to put a radar station or spotting unit adjacent to a waypoint where the bombers pause at the end of an hour, you can usually intercept them there if the range is short, otherwise they'll move on before your interceptors arrive. Putting your airfield in a target province, and having them intercept at a waypoint, can give you one intercept when the bombers reach the waypoint, then a second intercept when they arrive at your airfield province, and possibly a third if your planes can manage to catch them at the first point on their way home....or you can have different groups hit them at those points. Radar adds bonuses to each of the fights where you're in or adjacent to the province where it's located, and I don't believe that the level of the installation makes any difference in the effect.

Note that aircraft on Intercept MAY chase enemy planes on their own, and intercept them elsewhere, which unfortunately changes the mission target. Having my INT end up over enemy territory and getting shot up by opposing INT, rather than covering an industrial target, is NOT a pleasant surprise when you notice that your INT have been destroyed.

 

[Tyriion]

Radar adds bonuses to each of the fights where you're in or adjacent to the province where it's located, and I don't believe that the level of the installation makes any difference in the effect.

Yes, the level makes a big difference. Check the wiki for values here: http://www.hoi3wiki.com/Air_combat#Radar_impact