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Aug 1, 2001
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Tentative European Political Map


I am working on a second scenario to add to the Empires of Steel mod. If you have not gotten the mod yet, please click on the link in my signature and try it out. My new scenario is a 1419 scenario. I am soliciting ideas from the community because I know that 1419 scenarios have tended to be imbalanced. However, I believe that it is possible to build a balanced 1419 scenario, but I want to make sure I solve as many potential issues as I can. So tell me what you think are common problems with the 1419 setup! I will be implementing measures to curb these problems I have anticipated so far.

1. Weak France/Strong England/Weird Burgundy: The vanilla 1419 setup is actually historically inaccurate. France did not actually possess strongholds in Northern France (Paris, Champagne, Nivernais, etc) at the time. In reality, the Dauphin resided in Bourges (Berri) and most of his lands were concentrated in the south. So I shifted France south and consolidated her into a block. I added Guyenne and Normandy as English vassals; England only controls Picardie and Calais directly. In Britain, England only controls six provinces; having a Welsh and Lancashire vassal in Northern England. Scotland and Ireland are both five provinces and fairly dangerous to an early England. Brittany is a non-vassal, but allied to England. Burgundy is not allied to England and considerably stronger than in Vanilla. They control Paris (historical), Champagne, and Nivernais, along with some other possessions. Like France, all provinces are connected by land. COTS are in Flanders and Guyenne; sitting in contestible areas.

This should provide a fairly balanced setup. There will be no major power along Burgundy's eastern flank for quite some time and Iberia is divided as well, so the early game should be a 3-way match between England, Burgundy, and France. I will be creating a Norman and Burgundian culture to alleviate the culture war to dominate the massive French culture. Burgundy will have good incentives to turn against England as well as fight against France. I will also be giving everyone new 1419-1492 events and more for a potential "survivor" Burgundy. I envision a late-game Burgundy evolving into a Dutch power (they will be inheriting major pieces of the Dutch leaderfile. The Dutch Revolts will not occur if Burgundy is a player either, so they will really just replace the Dutch Republic as time goes on; albiet a bigger, more land-based, Dutch Republic.

2. Strong Iberia: The vanilla setup favors Iberians greatly. Portugese access to early explorers and the "Weak-France Effect" contribute to this. I will be cutting down the Portugese explorers (just like I cut down all leaderfiles) for the period. I have moved the Iberian COT to Grenada (which now has 3 provinces) and there is a strong Morocco player position as well. Since there is now a strait between Gibraltar and Tangiers and I have made North African provinces part of Europe through editing; Morocco cant draw manpower from sub-saharan Africa, they must go north or east. I will be giving Morocco at least one conquistador, so they should prove a nice counterweight to early Portugal. Aragon has been weakened a bit; Losing Italian culture, Sicily is now a 2-province vassal, along with a 1-province Sardinia (hard to annex). There will also be a Catalonian and Portugese culture that will keep the peninsula bitterly divided if there are multiple human players. The addition of a more dangerous France to the north will add more conflict.

This should also provide a fairly balanced 3-way conflict. Again, the divided cultures and fairly even power distribution should keep everyone at each other's throats. I havent figured out how exactly I will handle unification events. I may just create a conditional event that requires Castile or Aragon to kill the other before they can switch tags and get Spanish events and leaders. That would throw a bit of time-pressure and anxiety into the game as well.

3. Weak Austria/Strong Venice/Strong OE: Austria and Hungary both start with 6 provinces now. Venice will have the Florentine Republic (Tuscany) to compete against in Italy. Byzantium is strengthened a lot to provide a balanced player setup or to make the AI Byzantium more of a challenge if you run without a player there. Byzantium now controls lots of Greece and a isolated outpost in Trebizond. The Ottomans have established a foothold north of Thrace, but most of their provinces are in Anatolia. The OE is also checked by a potentially human Mamluks who will be able to sneak around getting annexed for free.

That makes a potential five powers in the Eastern Mediterranian (Tuscany, Venice, Byzantium, OE, Mamluks) and two land power to harass them in the Balkans (Austria/Hungary). I will be dividing German culture into three new cultures; Austrian, Bavarian, and Saxon; then converting most Hansa provinces to Baltic (Unless someone has a better suggestion).

4. Baltic Sea Imbalance: Hanseatic League is a new major, Finland is a vassal of Denmark (i.e. not a part of Sweden), and Novgorod is fairly viable now. Poland is allied to a non-vassal Lithuania (which is smaller because of an independent Ukraine). Muscovy comes out the best of the Northern powers, since it has a non-player Golden Horde on its flanks. Enterprising Novrogodians could use that to their advantage, but it remains a potential imbalancing factor. If I make Golden Horde playable, it will be able to block everyone from Siberia easily, so I dunno if that is smart. There is a COT in Crimea which is steppe culture and thus highly contested. Baltic culture will be greatly expanded, but will only constitute the core provinces of Hansa; thus making it a great "contested zone".

GIVE ME MORE PROBLEMS THAT YOU KNOW OF AND SOME POSSIBLE SOLUTIONS!!
 

HolisticGod

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Ryo,

Er, Morocco will be able to draw from Africa... I do like the idea of making it a major player nation, though. It would of course have to be put in Orthodox and given some serious manpower/tax/leader boosts. And the COT in Granada is historical.

Overall, the problem with the GC remains. What you need is a scenario that creates balance between regions, not within them. All you've done is profoundly weaken France and England longterm, whilst creating a marginal power (Burgundy) to make up the vacuum, and wreck the east (grossly ahistorically, but even putting that aside).

I give the game to the Habsburgs and especially Austria. Hands down. Even with those nonsensical culture changes.

The point is always to generate conflict. Creating new cultures does the reverse.
 
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They wont be able to draw manpower from Africa because they have all been set to zero manpower; forgot to add that. The European change means they CAN draw from Europe; sorry I was unclear on that.

Cultures should generate conflict, I agree. But having these massive culture zones creates uber-powers very easily. Division of cultures + events to help manage that distribution, should make things easier. Austria will have a hard time in Germany with Hungary and Venice on her immediate flank. She wont inherit Burgundy or Hungary either (indeed, she will probably conflict with them).

And I have done nothing "grossly ahistorical". I may be bending history (creating vassal states, for example), but not breaking it.
 

Dago

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this setup looks like interesting : historically also
even if england seems too much sacrificated,as OE,for MP i mean
surely is a 1419 scen more difficult rather than vanilla
i like much also the italian setup,and the eastern situation seems balanced
i dunno,anyway,if is good idea divide german culture in 3
Bra and austria will be very very difficult
and should be nice make some short 1vs1,a byz-OE or a france-burgundy
i ll post something more when i ll see the scen,no yet dled
i ll do it tomorrow,now is too late :wacko:
 

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HolisticGod said:
I give the game to the Habsburgs and especially Austria. Hands down. Even with those nonsensical culture changes.

The point is always to generate conflict. Creating new cultures does the reverse.



totally agree
 

HolisticGod

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Ryo,

Uh.

Byzantium.
 
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Bah, they had significant influence in Greece. I admit they are boosted, but we cannot stick EXACTLY to history. I dont see you complaining Brandenburg is boosted, when compared to its historical influence every scenario has them extremely more powerful. We dont utterly cripple Poland or Sweden, even though they are far more powerful, populated (especially Sweden), and capable of war and trade competition than they should be. We have to make some changes.

The fact is that there has always been a balance issue with the OE. That is why we wrangle over the Beys events and initial setup for them. We cant model reality perfectly, so we make concessions to history. I think a boosted Byzantium is a fun simple way to create a OE counterweight. Odds are that many of these nations will be AI because hardly anyone runs 20 person games (not since Tsunami really); so either Byzantium will massacre OE or the reverse will occur. Same for Castile-Aragon, same for France/Burgundy probably (though Burgundy is very popular).
 

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Ryo,

Er, no, they didn't.

Byzantium was Constantinople.
 

unmerged(10894)

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Historically, you'd have to wind the clock back for Byzantium to still have a major influence over Greek areas and still be marginally historical. They never really controlled much of the area after the Fourth Crusade. Still, history hasn't stopped you from doing other stuff, was just pointing that out.

The one main thing I can think of is watch out that you don't make too many nations that are dependent on being played for game balance. Already I can see here England, France, Burgundy, Castile, Austria, Hansa, Denmark, Poland, Novgorod/Muscowy, Byzantium/OE, Mamelukes/Morocco, and Portugal, which is 12 nations. 12 nations is quite a large sized game.

Edit: England also may be a little weak there. It may be an idea to think about domestic sliders and making Guyenne provinces of England.
 

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HolisticGod said:
Ryo,

Uh.

Byzantium.



btw i guess would be fun for some short 1vs1 with OE :D
dunno anyway how work in MP long term

about culture,one of the thing that i love more in the 1453 Bocaj's is the setup of cultures,more suitable for MP
coz helps wars between humans
 

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Good work, Ryoken! Advance with your ideas.

I'm preparing a GC scenario with less possible nations,
to make more simple the map and the file text.
I added other nations in extraeuropean areas to set a right replacement,
not only european civilizations existing in that time.
(the whole world in 109 countries now, instead of 155).