Need help vs. Mongols

[unmerged(15337)]

I'm playing as the Prince of Muscovy, it's about the year 1250 in the game, and finally I have to confront the reality of the Golden Horde. They appeared twice earlier, but both times they were quickly wiped out by some combination of the Seljuks, Khwarizm, and others around there. But this time they've established more of a foothold and, more to the point, threatened one of my vassals (Syrt, in the middle of Khazaria but at the edge of my realm). I'm having trouble with them because ownership of territory is automatically transferred as soon as a province is captured by either side. So my typical strategy of capturing some provinces for diplomatic leverage does not work at all; I get stuck with territory I don't want, my reputation suffers, and the Mongols are no more ready to deal than they were before. Meanwhile, they capture or recapture territory with their big army, presumably damaging their reputation but that doesn't matter because everybody hates them already anyway.

Though I had been intimidated by their huge stack of armies, I found to my surprise that it is actually not that hard to beat them (for example, my 15K against their 57K). However, they break from morale; their actual losses are tiny. Following the battle, they take no attrition (or maybe a very small amount?) while my "victorious" army would be subject to horrifying attrition in the range of 50-90%. By the way, is this game mechanic intended to simulate the Mongols' famous feigned retreats? In any case, I can avoid having my army annihilated by disbanding them and then re-recruiting them from their home provinces. That saves my army but costs precious time, while the supposedly defeated Mongol army stays in the field essentially fully intact and as bad as ever. So this sort of "victory" on the battlefield drives the Mongol army out of Province X -- very temporarily -- while adding nothing to my ability to negotiate a settlement with them. Because captured provinces get transferred instantly, the warscore is always a trivial score from a few battles, nowhere near high enough to get them to listen. Even if I offer 500 cash and recognition of their claim to this or that Khazar province, they never accept. Are they programmed to accept nothing short of total victory -- or total defeat?

Whether by accident or design, this war is turning into a WW2 style total war. And I am actually gaining ground, though there is give and take on both sides. By committing more forces, I believe I could actually destroy them and wipe them out. However, aside from the risk of getting backstabbed by someone on another border, I don't want that because I don't want their territory and I don't want the reputation hit that would come from acquiring it. My primary goal in the game is to become King of Rus. So far I have 22 of the 34 provinces I will need to take that title. I don't want to spend my reputation getting worthless territory in Khazaria or Turkmenistan. To the contrary, I want to save my reputation for conquest of Russian territory, but the constant war against the Golden Horde is preventing that completely.

Is there a solution to the Mongol problem, other than total conquest? Is it possible to negotiate any sort of status quo peace settlement?

 

[ConjurerDragon]

I'm playing as the Prince of Muscovy, it's about the year 1250 in the game, and finally I have to confront the reality of the Golden Horde. They appeared twice earlier, but both times they were quickly wiped out by some combination of the Seljuks, Khwarizm, and others around there. But this time they've established more of a foothold and, more to the point, threatened one of my vassals (Syrt, in the middle of Khazaria but at the edge of my realm). I'm having trouble with them because ownership of territory is automatically transferred as soon as a province is captured by either side. So my typical strategy of capturing some provinces for diplomatic leverage does not work at all; I get stuck with territory I don't want, my reputation suffers, and the Mongols are no more ready to deal than they were before. Meanwhile, they capture or recapture territory with their big army, presumably damaging their reputation but that doesn't matter because everybody hates them already anyway.

Though I had been intimidated by their huge stack of armies, I found to my surprise that it is actually not that hard to beat them (for example, my 15K against their 57K). However, they break from morale; their actual losses are tiny. Following the battle, they take no attrition (or maybe a very small amount?) while my "victorious" army would be subject to horrifying attrition in the range of 50-90%. By the way, is this game mechanic intended to simulate the Mongols' famous feigned retreats? In any case, I can avoid having my army annihilated by disbanding them and then re-recruiting them from their home provinces. That saves my army but costs precious time, while the supposedly defeated Mongol army stays in the field essentially fully intact and as bad as ever. So this sort of "victory" on the battlefield drives the Mongol army out of Province X -- very temporarily -- while adding nothing to my ability to negotiate a settlement with them. Because captured provinces get transferred instantly, the warscore is always a trivial score from a few battles, nowhere near high enough to get them to listen. Even if I offer 500 cash and recognition of their claim to this or that Khazar province, they never accept. Are they programmed to accept nothing short of total victory -- or total defeat?

Whether by accident or design, this war is turning into a WW2 style total war. And I am actually gaining ground, though there is give and take on both sides. By committing more forces, I believe I could actually destroy them and wipe them out. However, aside from the risk of getting backstabbed by someone on another border, I don't want that because I don't want their territory and I don't want the reputation hit that would come from acquiring it. My primary goal in the game is to become King of Rus. So far I have 22 of the 34 provinces I will need to take that title. I don't want to spend my reputation getting worthless territory in Khazaria or Turkmenistan. To the contrary, I want to save my reputation for conquest of Russian territory, but the constant war against the Golden Horde is preventing that completely.

Is there a solution to the Mongol problem, other than total conquest? Is it possible to negotiate any sort of status quo peace settlement?

Isn´t point 15 of the FAQ obvious?
http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum...t-of-good-to-know-things-about-Crusader-Kings

Historically the GH established itself as masters of all russian principalities so they should not relent in attacking you if you have the same goal ^^

 

[Mrdie]

Does DVIP modify the Mongols in any way? It'd make sense for them to experience a few negative events upon exiting the steppes.

 

[ConjurerDragon]

Does DVIP modify the Mongols in any way? It'd make sense for them to experience a few negative events upon exiting the steppes.

There are events to simulate the internal splintering of the Horde - but if you have specific questions about a mod you should ask them in the mod subforum.

 

[unmerged(15337)]

Update: after several more years and two wars with the Golden Horde, it's clear they can be beaten. However, attaining a total victory, eliminating them from the map, would be very difficult -- though I believe it is possible in principle. Based on my limited experience, fighting them successfully requires extremely careful management of armies and timing in order to avoid the killer attrition which is the real danger when fighting the Mongols. Further, I was very fortunate in that I had no other problems, either internal or external, during this time. I would be horrified at the thought of fighting the GH at a time of realm duress or when a major power declares war on another front at the same time.

Regarding the first reply to my post, I assure you that I am well aware of the general history of the Mongols, in particular the Golden Horde. My concern is focused on game mechanics and strategy. Obviously Paradox has given the Mongols some unusual features that other states do not have in the game, and their reasons for doing so are equally obvious.

Again, focusing purely on game mechanics, I see 3 distinctive features of the Mongols:

1. They occasionally get additional 20K regiments, presumably meant as reinforcements from their homeland.

2. They take no attrition, or only a very small amount.

3. Capture of any territory by either side results in automatic ownership by that side.

Now I am not arguing against these rules; I understand why they are there. My question is this: does there come a time when these rules do not apply? That is, will the Mongols ever "settle down" and operate as any other state in CK, with standard rules for attrition and conquest? Or will they operate in this exceptional way for the rest of the game?

 

[tajerio]

Now I am not arguing against these rules; I understand why they are there. My question is this: does there come a time when these rules do not apply? That is, will the Mongols ever "settle down" and operate as any other state in CK, with standard rules for attrition and conquest? Or will they operate in this exceptional way for the rest of the game?

I've never seen it happen. I think their special exemptions are based on the tag GOLD/ILKH and their Mongol culture. Once as the King of Rus' I had a Mongol-cultured son (married a Mongol girl at my court who was the daughter of a former Khan that I wiped out speedily) and he ended up succeeding to the throne. The Golden Horde reappeared, and I defeated and vassalized them (don't know why the game used to let you do this). They rebelled, I declared war, and took their title. Then all of a sudden I had no demesne limit and no attrition, but when I edited my ruler's culture to Russian this was no longer the case.
The best thing to do with the Mongols is usually to resign yourself to the fact that you have to eliminate them completely. It's not fun but it beats the alternative, and it definitely can be done--I beat the Golden Horde once as the ERE when they'd gotten all the way to Prague, but it took ten years and was a real micromanaging pain in the posterior.

 

[unmerged(15337)]

tajerio: thanks for the testimonial; sounds like you've had some interesting campaigns. Is it possible that the Hordes would lose their distinctive features by intermarrying with somebody and then having a non-Mongol cultured son inherit? I could even offer hot Russian women in order to accelerate or encourage the process.

Ultimately, if I have to wipe them out, I'll work as hard as necessary to do it. Right now I am somewhat handicapped by holding only a Prince level title (Prince of Moskva and several others at the same level). If possible, I would like to get the King of Rus title before seriously attempting to wipe out the Mongols, as I would be on a much stronger foundation then. Maybe the moral of my story is that I played too cautiously during the 1100s when I was "supposed" to conquer Russia myself.

 

[unmerged(75409)]

The Mongols are meant to be a scourge to the Christian world, exterminating them is the only way to go.

If they appear and you're strong - gather all your might, and crush them mercilessly. You will have to wade through rivers of blood to do so and your armies will be in shambles afterwards but it can be done.

If they appear while you're weak... PRAY THAT THEY HIT SOMEONE ELSE!!

I played once or twice as a Russian duke, and I was lucky to have the Mongols appear just when I was at the apex of my power. I marshalled close to 150,000 men when they appeared. I almost freaked out when the popup told me they appeared in one of my own provinces, but they first went after some no-name counts so I had some time to gather my forces. It took four or five apocalyptical battles to crush them... since attrition is so horrible when fighting the Mongols, you can't just throw everything you have against them in one big stack. I think I formed stacks of ~50,000 men, trying to maneuver them in such a way that they would march through different provinces and converge only once they arrived in the Mongol-besieged province in the first days of a month.

Attrition is checked at the first of each month so by all means avoid attacking the Mongs at the end of a month, because attrition will hit you DURING the battle.

The best way is to hit them on the 2nd of a month, finish the battle after 10-20 days and then pull your troops out of the province before the month is over. I hardly ever managed to do, because either marching times are too long or the battle lasts too long into a month, or your armies are routed and all withdraw into the same province. Attrition kills them in those cases. But every now and then it's possible. You can control where and when your armies attack the Mong doomstack so you should at least take care to avoid attrition on the march to the battle, and try to time the battle so that you don't get hit while the army is still in combat.

 

[unmerged(15337)]

If they appear while you're weak... PRAY THAT THEY HIT SOMEONE ELSE!!

Loved this line!

It appeared to me that attrition isn't taken during combat. Am I wrong on that?

Well, here's an update on my game, which has moved on about another 10 years. The Golden Horde started a fight with me for a 3rd time, and that led to their demise. I fended off their big army and took one province, Saray, that had been their capital. For a long time the GH and Qarakhnids fought a bitter stalemate give and take on the east side of the Caspian. Then the Seljuks moved in from the north, and between the two of them they finally took down the GH as the Horde's 80+K army seemed to have disappeared.

Shortly after that, the Il-Khanate reappeared within the Qarakhnid realm. They conquered all the Qarakhnid territory (essentially, the Turkmen area) and threatened the Seljuks and me, but not very well. The Seljuks appear to have them contained although the Il-Khanate has a horde of some 160K Mongol army. However, the Il-Khanate ruler is rather old -- in his 50s -- and his son is Turkish. So, as I understand it, when the son takes over, they will operate as a more or less normal state rather than as Mongols.

Meanwhile, I am finally free to throw my weight around to the north and take additional Russian territory which is my prime objective.

 

[unmerged(75409)]

It appeared to me that attrition isn't taken during combat. Am I wrong on that?

I think it is. Watch the numbers of your forces as the month ends, it should hit you just like when you're alone in a province.

 

[tajerio]

However, the Il-Khanate ruler is rather old -- in his 50s -- and his son is Turkish. So, as I understand it, when the son takes over, they will operate as a more or less normal state rather than as Mongols.

Let's hope my experience wasn't a bug, then, for the sake of Rus'.

 

[unmerged(57154)]

I discovered a rather painless way to deal with the Mongol stacks of doom (this is vanilla CK, don't know if there are combat tweaks in DV.

Mongols emerge in several regiments 20k strong, composed of shock troops, who take no attrition penalty, but have no battle leaders, save the Khan. I often play as the Russian principalities, and usually make myself knig Of Lithuania prior to their arrival (to let myself hold a larger demesne).

The trick to wiping out the stack of doom, is to arrange that the Mongols capture a singel province, entirely surrounded by provinces hostile to them. then, defeat them (they tend to break easily, though any army fighting them takes huge losses due to those accursed horse archers, who shoot every phase). when routed with nowhere friendly to go, the stacks of doom disband, and cannot be recalled. this naturally takes some manouevering, but in my latest game as Galich, I saw the GH charge into Vladimir (who was my only remaining rival), and after making a few isolated conquests, they got themselves surrounded in my lands (I held every principality except for Vladimir, Tver, Suzdal and Yaroslavl at the time. When the stacks of doom were surrounded, I declared war, and with some manoevering, reduced the GH's manpower to under 5k in about half a year, leaving my vassals to finish them off.

likelwise when the Ilkhanate showed up, ploughed their way through the Seljuks and Abbasids, and did some damage to Byzantines before declaring peace and turning on my Georgian posessions, I used the same isolation tactics in the mountanous provinces of Georgia.

hope this helps.

 

[unmerged(15337)]

New update: my theory of the Turkish cultured Mongol ruler didn't hold up. When the young Turkish lad became Chief of the Il-Khanate, they still operated just as before, with exactly the same rules as far as I could tell. I wasn't fighting against them -- only the Seljuks were -- so I couldn't see everything but I believe they acted fully Mongol in all the game mechanics. But they don't appear to be as strong and (so far) are not really a threat to me.

 

[Hundhedning]

New update: my theory of the Turkish cultured Mongol ruler didn't hold up. When the young Turkish lad became Chief of the Il-Khanate, they still operated just as before, with exactly the same rules as far as I could tell.

Nope, it's tied to the tag, not the culture. But I think that's in DV. In vanilla CK, I seem to remember, it was tied to mongol culture, which meant it could be abused in the way you suggest.