Need help from logic experts: "Paradox should incorporate alternate history because that is what people buy"

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pheonicia

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I think a small and somewhat overlooked aspect is that game devs make games that they want to play. They put in content they want to see. No one wants to play a game where even the devs don't like it. They're passionate about ww2, alt history, and strategy games, so they combine them.
 
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billcorr

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And by the way, for a supposed “logic expert,”

I'm not a logic expert.

I am asking for help from logic experts.

Thanks for the feedback. I've edited the title to reflect the request from experts to help with the logic.
 

Zauberelefant

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I suspect that WW2 games draw immediate attention from an audience that has followed the war over years and many games. I doubt that there is an equally large or immersed audience following alternative WW2 history. If that is true, I would assume that HOI4, built and advertised as a WW2 grand strategy game is going to sell much better than a HOI4 built and advertised as a Kasierreich. I think this can be safely assumed as the whole of the WW2 audience is obviously larger than its component slices that would enjoy any of the differentiated alt-history slices.

Even so, there is a limit to how long the WW2 audience will continue to play any WW2 game, before they burn out. Prolonging that burn would require making something new. HOI4 did that with the ability to play many nations. The sheer number of playable nations meant that almost every player had at least a handful they might be interested in playing. What is more, it can be argued that alt-history begins on January 2nd, 1936 of almost every game played, increasing the burn even more.

If most of the above is true, specifically the idea that the whole audience is the sum of all alt-history slices, plus those who do not like alt-history, then no alt-history slice should be able to outsell the WW2 'historical' game.

A step further, if the above is true, completely ignoring the alt-history slices simply because each is to small to compete with the whole would be a mistake if the goal is to prolong the burn. Instead of seeing alt-history slices as smaller or inferior to the whole, it might be beneficial to see the slices as opportunities to prolong the time the game stays viable. If each slice is part of the whole, then each slice should enjoy the historical or light-alt-history version as much as anyone else in the whole. After this enjoyment that slice, along with all others, would burn out. Offering alt-histories may entice specific slices of the whole to continue their enjoyment, thus prolong the burn. It may even be possible to have those who thought they did not like alt-history to experiment and find unexpected enjoyment, thus prolonging the burn even more.

The success of alt-history to prolong the burn could distract or even blind the developers to the danger of eventually modifying the game to the point that it is no longer seen as a WW2 game by the whole. This could lead to the game burning itself out as first those who do not like alt-history stop playing and spreads to other slices as they do not "feel" the WW2 vibe anymore.

If the whole shares much in common with all the slices, then it should be of paramount importance that the game maintain its WW2 roots. This one characteristic is what attracted the whole and all its slices in the first place. It should be protected to get the longest burn. Defining what the WW2 roots are, will be a battle of opinion among developers and players alike.
Only valid if your chosen set and subsets are true.
How about this: Basic set is historic strategy gamers of a map painter mindset. Obvious other titles played:
Civilization (and derivates), 4x in General, total war series, etc.

This is a different crowd from WW2 nerds, that would also play anything WW2 related (check WoT/WoW, tactical and FPS titles, Sims of all kinds). Obviously, both crowds are larger than hoi4 player base, but I argue that hoi4 taps into General strategy more than into WW2, because of gameplay, time sucked up by game, depth of game etc.
 
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Harin

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Only valid if your chosen set and subsets are true.
How about this: Basic set is historic strategy gamers of a map painter mindset. Obvious other titles played:
Civilization (and derivates), 4x in General, total war series, etc.

This is a different crowd from WW2 nerds, that would also play anything WW2 related (check WoT/WoW, tactical and FPS titles, Sims of all kinds). Obviously, both crowds are larger than hoi4 player base, but I argue that hoi4 taps into General strategy more than into WW2, because of gameplay, time sucked up by game, depth of game etc.

I can only agree that your premise most likely has strong truth in it, making a valid conclusion. It is also helpful, in my opinion, because the success of HOI4 is most likely a combination of more elements than can be easily explained. The contemporary desire to answer complicated questions with a single phrase or sentence makes it difficult to elicit helpful discussion on anything beyond a yes/no question.

My premise was that the game was deliberately built to be a WW2 (10 year time span) grand strategy game and marketed to that audience. In the beginning, in my opinion, that most likely attracted the targeted audience in greater numbers than players of other genres. I believe that premise is correct. That does not make your premise wrong, by any means. After your input, I believe both are correct. It seems reasonable to assume that a WW2 grand strategy game would attract players who like the grand strategy part of the game. That would mean the whole of the audience is now better defined with your input. Realistically, it is probable that the whole of HOI4 players is more diverse than just these two slices and identifying them would be helpful in determining success in the future for HOI4.

What really complicates the issue is that the whole population playing HOI4 cannot be static. What was true on day one or the first month, cannot be true today.

If the game originally attracted WW2 players for the most part, but also some general grand strategy gamers, it would be reasonable to assume that over time even more general grand strategy gamers would have joined the game by now. This may be part of the pressure the developers are seeing in their trend lines to move further away from what was plausible in WW2 to providing a map with rules that allows multiple ways to paint the map their favorite color. It is also reasonable to assume that the originally targeted WW2 crowd is also, sometimes unintentionally, adding to the pressure as they burn out on the original draw of the game. If this is the case, segments of the WW2 crowd may either stop playing, or ask for some alt-history so they can continue playing with a familiar game system. This situation would complicate any true reading on what the players want for the future of HOI4.

If this general grand strategy portion of the population grows to the point of controlling the future of the HOI series, then the series will change into something else as it tries to catch up to what that crowd expects in the game. That course is wide open to interpretation, but it would not be unreasonable to assume that some of the WW2 crowd would begin to move on to other games as their influence fails to move trend lines monitored by PDX.

It is possible that PDX sees opportunity with changes in the gamer population playing HOI4. How they keep the largest number of players, no matter what genre they come from, is probably a number one topic for them. It may be part of why this thread was started. Is the trend toward un-plausible history driven by good data, or is the data just a reflection of what is left to play after hundreds, or even thousands, of game hours playing the majors?
 
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Zauberelefant

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@Harin thanks for the considerate answer and Reading my hastily construed post!
I fully agree that the hoi4 crowd is more diverse than alt history vs WW2 buffs, the "turkish nationalists" (Fans asking for proper turkey in game, not actually right wing turks) or other minor country specific Fans spring to mind, I guess we can can construct and find other groups as well.

I am, as you, convinced that hoi4 is not a Keeper to WW2 buffs either, as it lacked proper WW2 flavour from the get Go (Equipment names, unit names, generals, the myriad Events present in hoi4 and hoi2) and never moved heavily in that direction.
You're not staying if it's only fighting the second world war that pushes your Buttons.

For that reason, I figure that the faction of "realists" as opposed to the alt history crowd and others is actually very small If you look at their wishes - there will be few that actually want a realistically weak Germany, a realistically strong US, and a war that pretty much happens the same way every time.
But once you abandon a railroaded interactive History game, you're basically already alt history to a degree - it just depends how whacky you wanna get.

The result of this is that pdx need to find the spot in the spectrum of players where historicity and alt history are balanced to achieve maximum player number.

Trivial concept, very hard to do right.
 
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I struggle to think of reasons to be against alt-history, given that the historical path already exists. How could you possibly want less player choice when your own preferred option is already catered to?
The main problem is not the presence of alternate history per se, but the overall slow development of HoI IV. Many countires got extensive alternate paths, while others were left behind (Soviets, Italy, Finland, Egypt and many more)
Another problem is cause by the state borders. The devs have added some states needed only for ahistorical events and screwed up historical borders.
 
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TalyonUngol

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I believe that the plausible alternative history is not the same as the totally fantastic history, for example recreating a new Byzantine empire in which the Greeks or Bulgarians of the mid-30s never or if raised in any way aPolitically plausible concept but a free fanservice that would be historical anachronisms without any sentimental value for these countries. that for example certain chaoists that had a certain likelihood or were very close to actually happen, for example possible German support for an anti-Bolshevik Russian state or support for the creation of semi-independent states in someof those territories like Ukraine.

But plausability is just argueable. Theres not much plausability. There is this ridiculous theory that Germany could have won ww2... only if the stars aligned could they have done it. Russia and America((One of these alone)) would have won the war against Germany. Would Russia/America take a ton of damage? Absolutely... but to say that germany could win is ridiculous. Its why this arguement about plausability is just silly. Theres no such thing as actual plausability imo.
 
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billcorr

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But plausability is just argueable. Theres not much plausability. There is this ridiculous theory that Germany could have won ww2.

I don't see the connection between

"I believe that the plausible alternative history is not the same as the totally fantastic history, for example recreating a new Byzantine empire in which the Greeks or Bulgarians of the mid-30s never or if raised in any way aPolitically plausible concept but a free fanservice that would be historical anachronisms without any sentimental value for these countries."

and

"There is this ridiculous theory that Germany could have won ww2."

Help me connect the dots between the two statements please.

Each statement makes sense by themselves.

Kimidf appears to be arguing against having HoI4 recreate a new Byzantine empire "totally fantastic history"
TalyonUngol appears to be stating that it is a totally fantastic history that Germany could have won WW2.

I suppose the two statements are connected by saying, "If Germany could win WW2, then Greece can resurrect a 1500 year old dead empire."

Did I get that right?
 
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TalyonUngol

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I don't see the connection between

"I believe that the plausible alternative history is not the same as the totally fantastic history, for example recreating a new Byzantine empire in which the Greeks or Bulgarians of the mid-30s never or if raised in any way aPolitically plausible concept but a free fanservice that would be historical anachronisms without any sentimental value for these countries."

and

"There is this ridiculous theory that Germany could have won ww2."

Help me connect the dots between the two statements please.

Because there is no such thing as plausable alt-history that actually matters. You mean Hitler got assinated and Himmler is now the leader of the Nazis? What fascinating and engaging gameplay that must be. Oh wait, its in game and... offers nothing.

Thats my point.

Could I have worded it better? Sure but his post was about plausabile alt-history.
 
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fuser312

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There are tons of other interesting plausible alt-history scenarios. What if western allies went with their Operation Pike and we have a war between western allies and USSR that could result in an interesting three-way war or some sort of understanding between two sides to gang up on another.

What about Stresa Front? An early war with Italy on allies' side against Germany? Yeah, I know this front broke in 1935 but we can have a focus or something like where Italy says, we leave Ethiopia, and let's build the front again.

Similarly, there are more actual interesting what-if scenarios for the time period that can be explored and this is what disappoints me most instead of getting these scenarios that fits the time-period, in the name of alt-history what we have is utter fantasy. They are no better than if we have an expansion called middle earth or warhammer for a ww2 game.

Finally not just alt-history, with the same engine and time-frame this game can explore a plausible ww3, think operation unthinkable, and such.
 
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Zeprion

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Systematic errors in measuring customer preference might distort the potential market for HoI4.

@Dlin369, I'm not picking on you. Your observation helps by starting the conversation about "what is the potential market for HoI4?"

It could well be that the market for an alternate history WW2 game is greater than the market for a non-alternate history WW2 games.

The tricky part is determining how big (or small) the market is for non-alternate history WW2 games.

What, if any, logical fallacies apply to this idea "Paradox game designers design HoI4 to include alternate history because the alt-hx sells"

Some folks may conclude, "It's obvious that people want alternate history games because that is what sells"

Here are some systematic errors that may or may not apply to the "it is what sells" logic:
  1. "Volunteer bias"
  2. "Self fulfilling prophecy"
  3. "Self selection bias"
  4. "Survivor bias"
  5. "Bandwagon fallacy"
What systematic errors could be applied evaluating the thesis "Paradox should include alternate history to HoI4 because the alt-hx sells" ?
I don't know whether this has a name, but 2 mistakes that I've seen Paradox constantly makes are:

- A 50% play for Turkey after BoB came out does not mean players love Turkey a lot more now. It's only a novelty thing.
- When a new DLC is released, they judge what is the best nation based on which nation is the most played about 2 weeks after the release.
* When a new DLC is out, almost every player who bought the DLC wants to try every nation and every alternative path, that doesn't mean all nations are equally fun or long-term fun, it just means the players want to test them. So, arguing that because Netherlands was played by 40% of players after Man the Guns (not sure if accurate, only for exemplification) in the first weeks after release does not mean that Netherlands is the fan favourite nation of the DLC. You should wait until the novelty wears out.

- A 2% play for Italy in general does not mena that players don't want to play Italy in general. It only has less flexibility to other nations.
- Even when a new DLC is not out, the most played nations are not necessarly a measurement for what nations players want in general, but rather a measurement for what nations players want to play given the current focus tree.
* Germany is number one the most played Hearts of Iron 4 nation, you basically do all work for the Axis, but it's not the most played only because players want Germany, but also because it has a great focus tree. Other nations such as Italy and USSR have a lot of potential, but unfortunately lack a good focus tree so players won't play them as much. This is not a measurement of player desire to play Italy and USSR, it's a measurement of player desire to play Italy and USSR with the current focus tree. This goes the other way around, the war in Asia is 10x more with with DLC, there was probably a constant rise in playing China and Manchukuo since the DLC that didn't wear off with novelty.
 
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Adrianuse

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I understand the arguments and personally, I would like a better alternative history, because nowadays the magical transformations of minors into the empire are moderately entertaining for me (whether we are talking about Turkey and the Ottomans or Austria-Hungary).

While these are highly unlikely scenarios, it would be my perspective if I made them more difficult, more time-consuming, and therefore a little more probable. Unfortunately, many players want the opposite, i.e. to facilitate the realization of these fantasies. Even reactions after the last DLC. Rather, a desire to enter the war and blob faster than requests for more realistic modeling of the country's problems and troubles that would arise if the political (especially radical) course was changed.


Personally, I really like the imperfect attempts to simulate the problems that affect some countries, e.g. the situation of reluctance to war and the economic crisis in the Netherlands, political and religious unrest in Mexico, even the debts and economic collapse of Greece or the problems of Bulgaria. I would turn it up a bit because I like the idea that "shortage management". We will not manage to prepare everything for the war, so what to save? Strengthen the army? Improve the state of the economy? Or maybe allocate funds for scientific activities? Stabilize the political situation? Strengthen the current government or try to make things worse now to gain later. And time is for 1 such area, maybe 2.


To defend the developers it should be added that each DLC has a historical path (unfortunately often less interesting than the alternative one). On top of that, however, we get new things that strengthen the WW2 experience. For example, a few historical spy operations, or an attempt to better simulate France Vichy, the debts of countries whose repayments are also strengthened by the majors, the London Treaty, and even a little more information in the form of newspapers (I love these flavors!).


Well, even the beginning of something that I really count on, i.e. buying military equipment by weaker countries from the majors. Previously, the first swallow was the Yugoslav events (airplanes), now we also have decisions whether it is Portugal (ships) or Bulgaria (weapons, vehicles, planes).


I would love to see a more realistic approach to the war, even more realistic Germany, where an interesting scenario could be whether they would cope with the war with full isolationism of the US. Well, but I don't know if hoi4 wants to be such a game, this approach may be too niche, but I'm reaching for hoi4 because it is the closest to it, and no other game deals with this topic while maintaining such a scale and quality level (because hoi4 is a great game for me after all).
 
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kimidf

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I don't see the connection between

"I believe that the plausible alternative history is not the same as the totally fantastic history, for example recreating a new Byzantine empire in which the Greeks or Bulgarians of the mid-30s never or if raised in any way aPolitically plausible concept but a free fanservice that would be historical anachronisms without any sentimental value for these countries."

and

"There is this ridiculous theory that Germany could have won ww2."

Help me connect the dots between the two statements please.

Each statement makes sense by themselves.

Kimidf appears to be arguing against having HoI4 recreate a new Byzantine empire "totally fantastic history"
TalyonUngol appears to be stating that it is a totally fantastic history that Germany could have won WW2.

I suppose the two statements are connected by saying, "If Germany could win WW2, then Greece can resurrect a 1500 year old dead empire."

Did I get that right?
I just comment that lately the developers are being too influenced by mods like Kaissereich including alternative paths totally removed from a credible historical context of the country in question, as opposed to doing a more correct job as they did the German alternative path, which was a success that they did not introduce On the other hand, the German communist path was not likely to come to power. Instead, restoring the kaiser in some way was a feasible possibility since many German officers of the high staff were in favor of the return of the kaiser.


Unlike bizarre or totally surrealist roads, a restoration of the Byzantine Empire or the French monarchical restoration is still marginal today.

and the worst thing that this is taking away the equity between the balance of both aspects and the effort regarding the theoretically historical path that, as we saw in the Portuguese tree, was made in a hurry and due to the complaints of the community when it showed its tree for the first time and the French tree suffers from the same incomprehensible absences that have not yet been corrected
 
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hkrommel

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I greatly appreciate the way you've framed this thread @billcorr

To begin, I see a few logical errors in this very thread. The main one being a failure to compare like-to-like. This occurs when people make an "apples-to-apples" comparison by comparing two things that are fundamentally different as if they are the same. In this case, that's comparing the sales of HOI3 to HOI4.

Paradox was a fundamentally different company when it released HOI4. Its advertising, quality of life improvements, polish, DLC model, etc. were all radically different. Its popularity due to CK2 and EU4 was also at an all-time high. Paradox was still fairly niche when releasing HOI3, and it was released under the "old model." Thus, comparing the two is comparing apples-to-oranges. It's not a valid foil.

"Self fulfilling prophecy"
"Survivor bias"

The combination of these two is probably the biggest set of logical errors people might make when evaluating HOI4.

First, a little history/background to illustrate this.

HOI4 released with a lot of experimental features. Some areas of the game were much deeper than previous releases, some were much shallower or, in some cases, nonexistent. Focus trees were very basic. It's no secret that the AI was atrocious at release and there were a host of issues. Some people stopped playing the game because of this.

Then, as things began to improve, the devs seemed to focus on adding more focus trees at the expense of mechanics with TfV and DoD. Some features that many argued should be in the base game were gated behind DLC, for example the spearhead order. Some people stopped playing the game because of this.

Then, with WTT, the devs went heavy on alternate history. But, there was enough plausibility to some of the branches (Nationalist China fighting the Warlords, Puyi actually being in power during this timeframe) that many history-minded players were willing to accept these paths, especially since Japan got plausible alt history with the crazy stuff. With Germany, I think many players were relieved that they could now play a warlike Germany during this time period without playing as Nazis.

MtG went off the rails entirely for the most part. Aside from a good plausible alt-history focus tree for Britain, the rest was rather outlandish, particularly the United States. I only purchased this DLC because of the naval rework and because it was required for compatibility with several mods.

This is where I "got off the train" so to speak. I mostly stopped playing the game once it became readily apparent that the devs are no longer catering to me, someone who bought the game because I wanted to "take command of any nation in World War II; the most engaging conflict in world history."

Simply put: I like a little more WWII with my WWII game. The fact that it took so long to add fuel, the fact that the USSR still hasn't been reworked and when it is, will inevitably have a Romanov path (taking time from interesting paths within the Communist sphere), and that, as @kimidf mentioned, it took a community outcry on the forums to even have a historical path for Portugal, all point to the devs trying to make a different game than the one I was advertised.

So, as OP puts it, what are the logical errors?

Survivor bias
looms large, especially when using telemetry. Paradox only has data on players playing the game. So when you see those tables talking about the percentage of players who take these alternate history branches, those are only the players who have kept playing. HOI4 sold over a million copies. Far fewer than a million people play this game on a regular basis.

Further, that only includes players who play without mods. According to Dan Lind himself, about 64% of players play mods. That definitely includes me, since I don't think I've played vanilla since 2016.

Unfortunately, Paradox does not disclose the exact numbers of players from which they are drawing these percentages, and even still we would need more detail to really get into the stats ( For example, is all that's required to be counted to start the game? If so, could just firing up a new game once as each nation to look around, then not playing, be counted in the stats? If so, then the stats are misleading for the conclusions that are drawn from them).

Survivor bias is also present on these forums. Many like myself who are dissatisfied have stopped posting entirely, or only come back occasionally.

Self-Fulfilling Prophecy follows quite easily from this. If all your business decisions are being made based on data drawn from people who are satisfied with the current trajectory of the game, why would you ever change that trajectory? If you continue on the same trajectory, you put off more dissatisfied people and attract more satisfied people. That reinforces the development trend even more. Now, Paradox is full of smart people and, I suspect, after going public they have likely become a lot more savvy in their business.

To perhaps put OP's question in a slightly different way, what market trends does Paradox see that drives it to do what it does?

To begin with, I don't think Paradox actually falls for these logical fallacies because, let's face it, the people they have analyzing these sorts of things for the company have surely realized the same problems I and other forum posters have. I think they're smart enough to realize that they are in a niche market which, through making their games both deep and accessible from a UI and general QoL standpoint, they have effectively cornered. Though other markets are larger, like the FPS market, it doesn't make sense for Paradox to think of "bigger market=better". It has its brand, and that brand is worth something to a certain type of gamer. That kind of gamer likely does not play Fortnite on a daily basis.

In similar fashion, I think it is likely (though it is less likely than the above) that Paradox realizes the mistake of catering to those who only want to world conquest as their nation of choice. Focus trees are at their best when they involve tradeoffs and hard choices, not simple power-ups so you can throw blue turtle shells at the Soviets until they capitulate. Gameplay is at its best when you have to seriously engage with all the relevant mechanics to overcome the challenge associated with your chosen goal. I think the developers and the company people understand the dangers of catering too much to simplicity and map-painting, and even if they haven't truly understood them, they have been suitably chastened against that approach by the Imperator release.

So, to conclude this overly long post, I think Paradox sees two major trends:
1. Youtubers
2. Mods

Youtubers are a corporate executives' dream. Free publicity, free exposure, all targeted for free by Youtube's algorithms at gamers, your target audience. The problem is that Youtubers make their money based on mass viewing, and, as shown time and again by news agencies, TV shows, etc., if you want something to get a lot of attention, make it outlandish. Most people on Youtube, when choosing between "Watch me play HOI4 and conquer the world as the COMMUNIST United States!" and "Watch me play HOI4 but use the Northern Strategy as Japan!", will choose the former. The average person is not going to understand the significance or interest of the second thing, and even if they did, the first is still more outlandish. The business decision along these lines is clear: Give the Youtubers and their algorithm as much outlandish material as they can handle to boost your exposure. The problem with that approach is that it tends to bring in a certain type of gamer who, in addition to wanting the outlandish, wants it to come easy, but I've already covered that.

Mods pose a different, but more interesting question. They broaden the available experiences a gamer gets by purchasing your game. But, they also siphon off players from the base game, and they may cause players to enjoy a type of game that is not what your developers want to make, or the players of the vanilla game want to be made. So what does a developer do when they realize, as with HOI4, that almost two thirds of their players use mods? Do they treat their game as something like a platform for mods, like Mount and Blade? Or, do they try to capture some of that audience by doing what mods do? Paradox has opted for the latter, I think. By broadening the availability of alternate history they are trying to capture some of the audience from Kaiserreich and other such mods.

I believe this is an error. In economic terms, Kaiserreich is better viewed as a complement rather than a substitute to a good WWII grand strategy game. The more of a WWII grand strategy game HOI4 becomes, the more this is apparent. As HOI4, however, becomes more of a "1930s-1940s sandbox", then KR becomes a substitute. By making HOI4 more like KR, rather than a distinct experience, I think Paradox is shooting itself in the foot.

In closing, HOI4 has certainly captured a decent market, but it is very unclear how much of that market is here for HOI4, and how much is here for HOI4's mods. It is also unclear how many of the 1 million who bought the game, but do not play it, would play the game if the devs had taken a different path. Ironically, that in itself is an alternate history analysis.
 
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billcorr

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You want there to be logical errors with “Paradox does AH because it sells more”, so you interpret everything you can to support that.

The dialectic requires that contradictory views be presented and explored.

The thesis of this thread is:
"Systematic errors in measuring customer preference might distort the potential market for HoI4."

The implied antithesis is:
"Systematic errors in measuring customer preference might not distort the potential market for HoI4."

The "mights" are too wishy-washy. For the sake of the dialectic, remove 'em.

Establishing the thesis and antithesis now propels this thread towards a synthesis.

(as an aside, this thread's thesis is a bit of an antithesis to the quote in the OP. Exploring possible systemic errors in measuring customer preference is in response to the statement "They're a lot of restorationist stuff because it sells a lot according to telemetry. "

I admit, restorationist features in HoI4 could be the fuel that ignites sales and it is the best game design feature to bring in profits. Then there is always the mystery of the dog that did not bark. This thread looks for those non-barking dogs. )
 
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billcorr

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comparing the sales of HOI3 to HOI4.

What?

(at age 56, one gets easily confused. Please pardon my confusion. Is someone comparing the sales of HoI3 to HoI4? I think I missed something. Perhaps if I get another cup of coffee, my brainfog will lift and I'll see the apples and the oranges.)


My favorite quote so far:

I like a little more WWII with my WWII game.

Yes.

Other customer's mileage may vary ;)
 
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hkrommel

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What?

(at age 56, one gets easily confused. Please pardon my confusion. Is someone comparing the sales of HoI3 to HoI4? I think I missed something. Perhaps if I get another cup of coffee, my brainfog will lift and I'll see the apples and the oranges.)

I suppose I extrapolated that from people talking about sales numbers and HOI4 being the best-selling GSG (which, incidentally, isn't true. Stellaris had higher numbers last I checked, even if you don't think CK3 is a GSG, which I also disagree with).

Either way it's an argument that comes up a lot and is, quite frankly, crap. Nothing wrong with disposing of it early I guess, even though it appears I jumped the gun.

Edit: To use your methodology, the dialectic can be rather predictable at times
 
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grommile

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I can confidently say that alt-hist is not actually HOI4's focus, even if it is a heavily marketed feature.

Why?

Because the game explodes if the meatbag goes off the rails.

Seriously, you get little bits of exploded game stuck in your hair and everything.
 
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TalyonUngol

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I understand the arguments and personally, I would like a better alternative history, because nowadays the magical transformations of minors into the empire are moderately entertaining for me (whether we are talking about Turkey and the Ottomans or Austria-Hungary).

While these are highly unlikely scenarios, it would be my perspective if I made them more difficult, more time-consuming, and therefore a little more probable. Unfortunately, many players want the opposite, i.e. to facilitate the realization of these fantasies. Even reactions after the last DLC. Rather, a desire to enter the war and blob faster than requests for more realistic modeling of the country's problems and troubles that would arise if the political (especially radical) course was changed.


Personally, I really like the imperfect attempts to simulate the problems that affect some countries, e.g. the situation of reluctance to war and the economic crisis in the Netherlands, political and religious unrest in Mexico, even the debts and economic collapse of Greece or the problems of Bulgaria. I would turn it up a bit because I like the idea that "shortage management". We will not manage to prepare everything for the war, so what to save? Strengthen the army? Improve the state of the economy? Or maybe allocate funds for scientific activities? Stabilize the political situation? Strengthen the current government or try to make things worse now to gain later. And time is for 1 such area, maybe 2.


To defend the developers it should be added that each DLC has a historical path (unfortunately often less interesting than the alternative one). On top of that, however, we get new things that strengthen the WW2 experience. For example, a few historical spy operations, or an attempt to better simulate France Vichy, the debts of countries whose repayments are also strengthened by the majors, the London Treaty, and even a little more information in the form of newspapers (I love these flavors!).


Well, even the beginning of something that I really count on, i.e. buying military equipment by weaker countries from the majors. Previously, the first swallow was the Yugoslav events (airplanes), now we also have decisions whether it is Portugal (ships) or Bulgaria (weapons, vehicles, planes).


I would love to see a more realistic approach to the war, even more realistic Germany, where an interesting scenario could be whether they would cope with the war with full isolationism of the US. Well, but I don't know if hoi4 wants to be such a game, this approach may be too niche, but I'm reaching for hoi4 because it is the closest to it, and no other game deals with this topic while maintaining such a scale and quality level (because hoi4 is a great game for me after all).


I don't agree with most of your post, but I will reply to what I do agree with.

You talked about newspaper events, the debt repayment, the Mexico dealing with stability and civil wars and the like? I would like to see more of t his myself as well. I like the historical things as well as the fantasy alt-history. Kaiserreich/HRE, Ottomans, Byzantium, Roman Empire. I think its all wonderfully fun, both historical and fantasy alt-history.

I'd love more newspaper events the most though, or events that give you decisions like the Panay. I would love to see more of that.
 
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Znail

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  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • BATTLETECH: Season pass
  • BATTLETECH: Heavy Metal
  • Prison Architect: Psych Ward
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Island Bound
  • Hearts of Iron IV: By Blood Alone
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Magicka 2
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • BATTLETECH
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Age of Wonders: Shadow Magic
The main problem is, how do you make an interesting historical strategy GAME? If you only include doing what happened in history, then you aren't really given any choises. If I were to complain so is it a larger issue that the rails are a bit strict as the rest of the world keep following the set out path even when something big happens.
 
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