Need advice against a too powerful vassal

[ForVictory]

I'm playing as the Byzantine, 1337 scenario and one of my vassal is disloyal, has more titles and can raise more levies then me. I tried many approaches but all failed, leading them to my assassination or a civil war where I'm outnumbered.
How can I deal with him and get a firm grasp on my tiny empire?

 

[IanReSc]

Did you take the intrigue focus and/or join the satanists and have him abducted? Ot r his heirs? That should keep him in line. Other than that, send him gifts, sweet talk him or your other subjects. You could try to marry him to your relatives or the other way around.

 

[ForVictory]

Did you take the intrigue focus and/or join the satanists and have him abducted? Ot r his heirs? That should keep him in line. Other than that, send him gifts, sweet talk him or your other subjects. You could try to marry him to your relatives or the other way around.

No I turned satanist and other unrealistic events off in the game options and my focus is getting a healthy heir above all else.

 

[Zohtun]

Gather up a pile of money and use mercenaries to give yourself the edge.

 

[ForVictory]

Gather up a pile of money and use mercenaries to give yourself the edge.

My income is low now and it would take a long time to surpass his amount of levies.

 

[BoomKidneyShot]

Spy on them, break them apart.

 

[Castimirr]

There are a couple of things you can try.

See if you can get alliances with other realms or even major vassals in other realms that you can call into the war.

Otherwise, get some good commanders. Find the martial with the absolutely highest stat you can, and put him on train troops in advance. You can get a significant boost from that, especially if you have multiple baronies in your capital county. Ideally, you also get the +50% reinforcement rate so they fill/refill quicker.

If you know when the war is coming, especially if it is something you can trigger (like an arrest/revocation), raise your levies and gather your forces before triggering it. Put them in place so when the war is declared he won't raise his forces and the sieges start immediately. Alternately, use your already gathered troops and a commander with Organizer to kill his armies before he can gather them together. If you have retinues you can use them to adjust your troop mixes. It is quite possible to beat significantly larger armies with good commanders, especially if you can make them fight you when you are getting bonuses from the terrain and they are taking penalities for it.

 

[Zohtun]

My income is low now and it would take a long time to surpass his amount of levies.

As a supplement to the other suggestions (@Castimirr has provided a fantastic strategy and I'd +1 that one), you can search out people who'll join your court by age. Look for people who are old, have no living family and have money and invite them to your court. You'll need a little micromanagement to dodge the court size limit, but it's well worth the effort when you end up with a dozen geriatrics who soon enough die leaving you the sole beneficiary of their state-seized fortune.

It's a little cheesy but it'll help with getting together the funds you need to even the odds should your vassal manage to sneak past your defensive line (assuming you're following the Castimarr strategy)

 

[mrinku]

In addition...

WHY is the vassal disloyal? Hover over his opinion and see if there are any obvious things you can do to mollify them. Maybe they want a seat on the council, or a particular county? Can they be transferred to another vassal (maybe a viceroy)? Are there modifiers with time limits that will sort things out (in which case, are there short term options you can use to placate them - like gifts - until these run down?).

Do they have rivals that you can use to leverage a war that does not involve you?

If THEY are your rival, is dueling an option?

In extremis, is the problem you? Sometimes you are better to take the hit and go to being a vassal under your usurper, and work from here. Would that be so bad?

 

[Dragatus]

Get the vassal excommunicated if possible. That will allow you to imprison him without upsetting anyone else. Note that a failed imprisonment will trigger an instant rebellion, but at least nobody should be joining him and as was suggested before, you can prepare and park your army on his capital before you try to do the arrest.

 

[ForVictory]

In addition...

WHY is the vassal disloyal? Hover over his opinion and see if there are any obvious things you can do to mollify them. Maybe they want a seat on the council, or a particular county? Can they be transferred to another vassal (maybe a viceroy)? Are there modifiers with time limits that will sort things out (in which case, are there short term options you can use to placate them - like gifts - until these run down?).

Do they have rivals that you can use to leverage a war that does not involve you?

If THEY are your rival, is dueling an option?

In extremis, is the problem you? Sometimes you are better to take the hit and go to being a vassal under your usurper, and work from here. Would that be so bad?

Well he has the title claimant, desires a county that has my capital on it and has the ambitious trait. He also requires huge amount of gift in gold and excommunication is not allowed at this point because my piety is not enough. He is also slightly above his own demise, maybe I can use that against him?

 

[Thrake]

How much disloyal? Can't you NAP him? If he has a seat in your council and the council is not discontent then he won't be able to revolt, period. He will be a pain being discontent and getting other councilors to vote like him, but that' better than lose a war. You can work from here: how old is he? Maybe you can just wait for his heir to inherit. If he is not old then you can help him dying faster. Maybe he has a succession law that will split his demesne, maybe his heir is a really poor ruler which will have much fewer levies, maybe his heir will be much easier to please, maybe you can consolidate your power base (are you at demesne limit? Did you max out your retinues already?) in order to have more levies than him and be able to revoke him.

If all else fails, try to get him a free ticket for your oubliette (unticking the auto end plot can give you a tyranny free ticket). Doesn't matter how powerful he is if he can't revolt.

 

[ForVictory]

Im new at this game but I tried many approaches including trying to give him titles but he always revolts eventually.
I also tried to put my levies on his counts and then revoke his title, so q civil war begjns but then I still manage to lose because he outnumbers me vastly because all the other vasalls also turn against me for it.

 

[Thrake]

As I said, councilors can only revolt if the council is discontent (if you own conclave). Council is discontent only temporarily, when you inherit no matter what, and when you go against the will of the council.

Jailed people can not revolt either.

You never give titles to people who are too troublesome. Wathever bonus is only temporary and the troublesome guy will be more powerful once it's gone. If he his too much in the negative you won't placate him with a county or two anyway. You can give a county to people at -10/20 if nobody likes you and you can sway a powerful vassal from being discontent to not discontent anymore. Then a single county can save you from a civil war. Any other situation, you give titles to people who like you. People who don't like you get minor titles, councilor positions or gifts to be placated into positive opinion. People who hate you too much to be brought into positive opinion get nothing but your fist in their face.

 

[Kumicho]

How much disloyal? Can't you NAP him? If he has a seat in your council and the council is not discontent then he won't be able to revolt, period. He will be a pain being discontent and getting other councilors to vote like him, but that' better than lose a war. You can work from here: how old is he? Maybe you can just wait for his heir to inherit. If he is not old then you can help him dying faster. Maybe he has a succession law that will split his demesne, maybe his heir is a really poor ruler which will have much fewer levies, maybe his heir will be much easier to please, maybe you can consolidate your power base (are you at demesne limit? Did you max out your retinues already?) in order to have more levies than him and be able to revoke him.

If all else fails, try to get him a free ticket for your oubliette (unticking the auto end plot can give you a tyranny free ticket). Doesn't matter how powerful he is if he can't revolt.

My first thought in situations like this is to get a non-aggression pact through marriage. Marry one of his kids (NOT HIS HEIR!!) to one of yours, and *poof*, no more troublemaker. Putting him on the council (assuming you haven't completely neutered it) will also get you a NAP.

Or, if he's not amenable to marriage, marry one of your kids to someone powerful (HRE? France?) so that you can at least win the civil war that is inevitable.

But in general I usually like ridiculously-strong vassals, since that means there's fewer of them and I can keep an eye on them. Between your Spymaster discouraging factions, your Chancellor improving relations, swaying him to improve relations, inviting him to your secret society (ie, join the Hermetics and make him your apprentice), honorary titles, having him educate your (lesser important) kids, etc, you should be able to keep a single powerful vassal in line. The main problems occur when you have a LOT of powerful vassals and can't focus your attention on all of them.

 

[Castimirr]

Im new at this game but I tried many approaches including trying to give him titles but he always revolts eventually.
I also tried to put my levies on his counts and then revoke his title, so q civil war begjns but then I still manage to lose because he outnumbers me vastly because all the other vasalls also turn against me for it.

Did you have a valid reason to revoke or did you just do it and get a penalty with every vassal? If you were fighting the rest of your vassals too it sounds like you revoked without having a just reason, and they joined his revolt.

Also, check and see if he has alliances with anyone else. If he does, plot murder one of the people in the marriage that creates it. You will probably have an easier time with the one who isn't in their home court.

If he desires your current capital county, it sounds like he holds the dutchy your county is in. I'd making getting that back from him a high priority, and then not give it out again.

 

[Kumicho]

If he desires your current capital county, it sounds like he holds the dutchy your county is in. I'd making getting that back from him a high priority, and then not give it out again.

Bingo. You should be able to plot-revoke this as well, meaning your other vassals won't be upset when you revoke it.

 

[ForVictory]

So I tried playing the other way, I did a new game but choose this Duke to play and declared war on my king. It was easy to beat his smaller army but when his army returned it was enormous! I saw that the army of the king of Serbia had joined him. But they aren't allies and I they are not hostile to me! What is going on here?

 

[Thrake]

So I tried playing the other way, I did a new game but choose this Duke to play and declared war on my king. It was easy to beat his smaller army but when his army returned it was enormous! I saw that the army of the king of Serbia had joined him. But they aren't allies and I they are not hostile to me! What is going on here?

Usually this means that they are fighting together in another war. Serbia is not hostile to you because not fighting in the war of your liege. However they attach their armies together and they will fight together every battle. This can be the result of a holy war where say some Muslim is attacking the ERE and Serbia volunteered to help him.

 

[jwalche]

I don't see this tip. With some extra ducal titles, You can make his vassal counts independent from him and report directly to you.

If your vassal duke is very powerful, it is likely that he has some vassal counts. Give the counts a ducal title each, and the original vassal duke's realm has shrunk to 1/3. In addition, you have new royal direct vassals.

You did everything and he is still at the verge of pressing his faction claim for your top title? Grant him independence and the problem is temporarily solved.

Or, create de jure kingdom title of that vassal duke' primary ducal title, and give it to his strongest vassal count for a good measure. Now you have a very happy royal vassal king and that troublesome vassal duke is not your direct vassal any longer. His factions are instantly dissolved too. If he revolts against his new liege, watch them fighting while you enjoy your popcorn.