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sekelsenmat

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CA and CV are ok, but I'm not sure you can really do without BB versus the UK. Carriers are ahistorically weak in MtG, although in LaR they got buffed so maybe they are strong now.

I did try a fleet of historical ship designs vs the UK (tier 3 BBs (Bismarks) + cheap DD with torpedoes (torpedo boats) + CAs like Admiral Hipper), all historical designs similar to the real corresponding real life ships, and it was competitive, in battle it was a stalemate vs the UK, but not strong enough to get a big win.

Your DD should at least have torpedoes, to kill the enemy BB after their screen is destroyed.

Subs tier 2 are very weak, I'd rush tier 3.

Your CL is a good spotter.
 
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SophieX

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You will fight mostly in range of enemy air-planes; so no AA-guns on any ship might be not a good solution ( especially reflecting on your wish "in a somewhat historical setting". )
 
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Simon_9732495

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I'm not sure you can really do without BB versus the UK.

I produce the 2 Scharnhorst Class BBs from the starting queue.

BB:
1597578907225.png

I dont plan using the 2 starting BBs Schlesien and Schleswig Holstein, because the are so slow (18kn)


Your DD should at least have torpedoes, to kill the enemy BB after their screen is destroyed.
The enemy BBs will be killed by the CV-Naval Bombers I hope...


Subs tier 2 are very weak, I'd rush tier 3.
I know that sub3s are very strong. But I want to concentrate on the surface fleet and I cant do everything.


You will fight mostly in range of enemy air-planes; so no AA-guns on any ship might be not a good solution ( especially reflecting on your wish "in a somewhat historical setting". )
I think I read somewhere that ship AA is not especially useful. Not 100% sure about that...

My sentence was: "I want to reach global sea dominance as Germany in a somewhat historical setting."
I meant that I want to beat the UK (and maybe the US) and dont I want to reach with an 1936/37 sealion or something.
So I will use Ship-AA only if it's worth it. I think air cover from land based fighters might be better, because I need lot's of fighters anyway.
 

blahmaster6k

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I think you are right. I play Germany a lot and usually buff all my enemies to increase difficulty. But I still have to learn a lot about building up a navy and maybe I should learn in normal mode.


The UK took that focus. Allies are still existing, but French is not in them.
France went facist and had a guarantee on CZE, when I attacked them. So I was at war with the UK and France.
France took "Latin Entente" and at some point in 1939 Italy suddenly joined the war against me.
Plan was doing Danzig or war and getting some Guns from Poland. Now I'm at war with UK, France and Italy and lack 25k Guns...


Maybe I can get some feedback for my Naval Designs:

CV:


CA:

CL:

DD:

SS:
Those are mostly all pretty good designs, and more or less meta afaik for most of the classes. The only change I would make is taking the armor off of your CAs. Anything that's going to target a CA (BB, BC, other CA) is going to penetrate any armor you put on it so it just slows it down and makes it easier to hit.
 
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SophieX

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My sentence was: "I want to reach global sea dominance as Germany in a somewhat historical setting."
I meant that I want to beat the UK (and maybe the US) and dont I want to reach with an 1936/37 sealion or something.

May be I misunderstand you sentence about "... in a somewhat historical setting.". I assumed that you want to build units "somewhat simular " to the hisorical ones.
 

HugsAndSnuggles

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The enemy BBs will be killed by the CV-Naval Bombers I hope...
And what would be the point of having a fleet? >.>
So I will use Ship-AA only if it's worth it. I think air cover from land based fighters might be better, because I need lot's of fighters anyway.
As I understood it: it's worth it, but fighter cover is better. As long as you won't get an idea of using those ships without fighter cover, you'll be fine.

Also, I don't quite understand what you want that CL for: for scouting you don't need weapons, for combat you'll need armour (and more weapons).
 
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Paul.Ketcham

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20200612093818_1.jpg


Add AA and sonar, and you can swap a few CAs and a bunch of the empty DDs for something just as powerful. I've never been a fan of the CA and empty DD approach, on account of the fact that the DDs still die like flies but are needed to get anything done, and lower your whole fleet's AA damage mitigation bonus (higher average flak reduces the damage inflicted by air attack). CLs with armor will shrug off tier 1 CLs and all DD light attack (they still deal damage, but no critical hits and significantly less damage than normal) while boasting similar damage (not as much; a screened capital ship gets a 40% bonus to damage, so its individually better).

As screens sink (such as a mass of empty destroyers), your damage bonus is going to decline and eventually disappear, while torpedoes are going to start coming through your weakening screen and hit capital ships. Also, unarmored heavy cruisers are going to be getting shot by capital ships the whole time (note that armor only adds HP to CAs in this case; you can't armor enough to protect cruisers against capital ship fire, only light attack); battlecruisers, by comparison, have the default armor to shrug off penetrations by heavy cruisers and light attack, meaning even after your screen dies they aren't going to take much damage. Having lethal CLs is also generally better for keeping your ships alive rather than just having to rebuild them constantly, and cruisers can detach and raid long distances when necessary (raiding with cruisers near South Africa is stupidly-effective).

Note the DP secondaries. The RADAR can be refitted before the war, but I research DP secondaries tech in 1936 because it is impossibly-good for any committed navy. Combined with a battlecruiser with maxed DP secondaries...
20200612093726_1.jpg


20 AA (when combined with 1940 radar and AA, which you can refit before the war) makes these ships lethally-powerful to aircraft (which will focus fire on your capital ships). You also can keep their speed up (which reduces enemy heavy gun accuracy, and stops them from slowing your whole fleet). The obvious tradeoff here is that it costs about twice as much as an unarmored heavy cruiser for only slightly-higher attack, but this can survive a crapton more air or naval attack than the heavy cruiser can.
 
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Caeric

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In general, I'd recommend having good intel on the Allies naval movements, and make sure you've set your admiral to Cautious. When I play a naval Axis power I tend to try more of a guerrilla warfare type approach since I will not have enough capitals to fight a doomstack. Instead just picking off smaller taskforces and maybe damaging or sinking some capital ships as I retreat from their main fleets. You will still lose ships occationally with this approach but by having quite fast strike forces you can often retreat before losses become unrecoverable. Keep in mind that your fleet is only as fast as its slowest member.
 
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Simon_9732495

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And what would be the point of having a fleet? >.>
Hm...?
Sorry, I dont get it.

I don't quite understand what you want that CL for: for scouting you don't need weapons, for combat you'll need armour (and more weapons).
I thought 3 floatplanes for >60 surface detection is enough and I can add some light attack to be able to kill small DD taskforces (e.g. ASW) alone.


View attachment 610125

Add AA and sonar, and you can swap a few CAs and a bunch of the empty DDs for something just as powerful. I've never been a fan of the CA and empty DD approach, on account of the fact that the DDs still die like flies but are needed to get anything done, and lower your whole fleet's AA damage mitigation bonus (higher average flak reduces the damage inflicted by air attack). CLs with armor will shrug off tier 1 CLs and all DD light attack (they still deal damage, but no critical hits and significantly less damage than normal) while boasting similar damage (not as much; a screened capital ship gets a 40% bonus to damage, so its individually better).

As screens sink (such as a mass of empty destroyers), your damage bonus is going to decline and eventually disappear, while torpedoes are going to start coming through your weakening screen and hit capital ships. Also, unarmored heavy cruisers are going to be getting shot by capital ships the whole time (note that armor only adds HP to CAs in this case; you can't armor enough to protect cruisers against capital ship fire, only light attack); battlecruisers, by comparison, have the default armor to shrug off penetrations by heavy cruisers and light attack, meaning even after your screen dies they aren't going to take much damage. Having lethal CLs is also generally better for keeping your ships alive rather than just having to rebuild them constantly, and cruisers can detach and raid long distances when necessary (raiding with cruisers near South Africa is stupidly-effective).

Note the DP secondaries. The RADAR can be refitted before the war, but I research DP secondaries tech in 1936 because it is impossibly-good for any committed navy. Combined with a battlecruiser with maxed DP secondaries...
View attachment 610126

20 AA (when combined with 1940 radar and AA, which you can refit before the war) makes these ships lethally-powerful to aircraft (which will focus fire on your capital ships). You also can keep their speed up (which reduces enemy heavy gun accuracy, and stops them from slowing your whole fleet). The obvious tradeoff here is that it costs about twice as much as an unarmored heavy cruiser for only slightly-higher attack, but this can survive a crapton more air or naval attack than the heavy cruiser can.

Thanks for your reply. Not sure if I get everything, though.
Do you suggest to replace the DDs with CLs? Is it possible to get enough of them?
A Battlecruiser is a Cruiser hull with heavy batteries and heavy ship armor? Is that correct.
I'd like to get away without AA and DP secondarys. Is it not enough to cover the air with land based fighters (and fighters from my CVs)?
 

HugsAndSnuggles

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Hm...?
Sorry, I dont get it.
If you do bother with a fleet, why not make it functional? CAs kill screens, DDs kill capitals. If your fleet will only be able to kill screens, better to just opt out for subs + air meta.
I thought 3 floatplanes for >60 surface detection is enough and I can add some light attack to be able to kill small DD taskforces (e.g. ASW) alone.
Thing is: ASW taskforce will call in that doomstack. Part of the reason I prefer cruiser subs for the job: they are cheap and stay hidden until it's time to torp retreating capitals.
Do you suggest to replace the DDs with CLs? Is it possible to get enough of them?
In my limited experience, it is not (within a reasonable timeframe and without sacrificing everything for the navy). Either way, the idea is still the same: somehtig kills the screens for torps to get through, so you'll still need something to carry those torps (can make CAs do it, but destroyers tend to be a better option).
A Battlecruiser is a Cruiser hull with heavy batteries and heavy ship armor? Is that correct.
It's battleship hull with lighter armour.
Is it not enough to cover the air with land based fighters (and fighters from my CVs)?
I'd advise against CVs if you go for external fighter cover to the point where you think AA unnecessary.
 
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Thanks for your reply. Not sure if I get everything, though.
Do you suggest to replace the DDs with CLs? Is it possible to get enough of them?
A Battlecruiser is a Cruiser hull with heavy batteries and heavy ship armor? Is that correct.
I'd like to get away without AA and DP secondarys. Is it not enough to cover the air with land based fighters (and fighters from my CVs)?

1.) You will never get as many CLs as DDs in a fleet, but DDs will die far faster in combat. Its a common mistake to assume you have enough screens with destroyers, then to fail to take into account the fact that their HP is pretty awful and they're going to die like flies. CLs, in effect, replace some of your capital ships in order to maximize firepower (since CLs act as screens, as opposed to requiring screens like heavy cruisers). You can always mix heavy cruisers with your light cruisers, and destroyers with a CL fleet. Note too that you need the CLs earlier than the DDs, since a cheap destroyer costs a lot less than a cruiser to build (you can finish a LOT of empty destroyers in the same time as a large light cruiser, since you're looking at a 700 to 5000 production cost difference); in wartime, you want to build the cheaper ships to replace losses unless you're planning on a protracted campaign. I will point out that I'd rather do a 1100-ish DD with a depth charge and torpedo launcher than an empty one, since half as many DDs with torpedoes and depth charges are vastly more useful in combat (torpedoes combined with high light attack are lethal to the AI, which sooner or later will run out of screens and will get shredded by torpedoes).

2.) Battlecruisers are battleships with the BC armor configuration; they are faster, cheaper, and have less armor and HP (but still considerably more than heavy cruisers). For fighting cruisers and destroyers only, the heavy cruiser is more cost efficient, but against capital ships battleships and battlecruisers will wreck the heavy cruisers pretty quickly. In game, they function more like small battleships than actual battlecruisers, since the lighter armor isn't nearly as significant as it should be (1940 BC armor can actually block starting heavy gun armaments).

3.) DP secondaries are not just an AA tool either; they have somewhat less damage than CL guns, but (in addition to CL guns not fitting on capital ships, but secondaries do) you have increased damage and piercing plus 3 AA attack per gun. Skipping AA is a terrible idea in the waters near Britain as well, as you are basically always going to be threatened by air attack. High AA will shoot down enough bombers that Britain won't be able to maintain its attacks over time, and also reduces the damage done by successful naval bombing. DP secondaries removes much of the question of whether to mount regular guns or AA guns.
 
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HugsAndSnuggles

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And for your future naval campaigns: don't ignore mines like vanilla AI loves to - those things are deadly.
 
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blahmaster6k

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1.) You will never get as many CLs as DDs in a fleet, but DDs will die far faster in combat. Its a common mistake to assume you have enough screens with destroyers, then to fail to take into account the fact that their HP is pretty awful and they're going to die like flies. CLs, in effect, replace some of your capital ships in order to maximize firepower (since CLs act as screens, as opposed to requiring screens like heavy cruisers). You can always mix heavy cruisers with your light cruisers, and destroyers with a CL fleet. Note too that you need the CLs earlier than the DDs, since a cheap destroyer costs a lot less than a cruiser to build (you can finish a LOT of empty destroyers in the same time as a large light cruiser, since you're looking at a 700 to 5000 production cost difference); in wartime, you want to build the cheaper ships to replace losses unless you're planning on a protracted campaign. I will point out that I'd rather do a 1100-ish DD with a depth charge and torpedo launcher than an empty one, since half as many DDs with torpedoes and depth charges are vastly more useful in combat (torpedoes combined with high light attack are lethal to the AI, which sooner or later will run out of screens and will get shredded by torpedoes).

2.) Battlecruisers are battleships with the BC armor configuration; they are faster, cheaper, and have less armor and HP (but still considerably more than heavy cruisers). For fighting cruisers and destroyers only, the heavy cruiser is more cost efficient, but against capital ships battleships and battlecruisers will wreck the heavy cruisers pretty quickly. In game, they function more like small battleships than actual battlecruisers, since the lighter armor isn't nearly as significant as it should be (1940 BC armor can actually block starting heavy gun armaments).

3.) DP secondaries are not just an AA tool either; they have somewhat less damage than CL guns, but (in addition to CL guns not fitting on capital ships, but secondaries do) you have increased damage and piercing plus 3 AA attack per gun. Skipping AA is a terrible idea in the waters near Britain as well, as you are basically always going to be threatened by air attack. High AA will shoot down enough bombers that Britain won't be able to maintain its attacks over time, and also reduces the damage done by successful naval bombing. DP secondaries removes much of the question of whether to mount regular guns or AA guns.
The whole Idea is you only put your surface fleet out where you have friendly air superiority or at least contested air. That's the whole reason in multiplayer that the Central/Eastern Mediterranean is one of the most important places to fortify airbases on, whoever can get the most planes up for a naval battle will win the decisive battle. Italy typically wins central med, but UK wins eastern med, because Allies only have 2000 planes stationed in Malta while Axis has Sicily and multiple bases in Libya to contest air with. Eastern Med meanwhile has Cyprus and Alexandria if not Palestine to provide air support from.

The reason the naval meta exists in its current state is that it's better to have more ships than to have fewer ships, even if the few ships are individually more powerful. The cheaper you can make your ships, the more ships you will have. You don't need to have expensive AA guns or sacrifice attack for dp secondaries when friendly fighters stop all the naval bombers for you.

Also, 1940 destroyers have 50 hp, which means that it takes multiple hits to sink one unless the enemy targeting it has 50 light attack. the more ships you have, the less likely that ship is to be hit multiple times. The targeting formula is random and ships don't get focused down. Also take into account that a 1940 DD with engine 3 will be decently evasive, and your destroyers won't sink nearly as often as you seem to think they will. People have run the tests.

EDIT
More info on naval targeting and AA, the typical thing to do at game start is to refit all your starting battleships and battlecruisers to carry only AA guns, since naval bombers heavily prefer to target them and carriers before anything else. They have enough hp to sponge the naval bombers attacks while your CAs and DDs don't take many hits because they are not targeted as much.
 
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Paul.Ketcham

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The whole Idea is you only put your surface fleet out where you have friendly air superiority or at least contested air. That's the whole reason in multiplayer that the Central/Eastern Mediterranean is one of the most important places to fortify airbases on, whoever can get the most planes up for a naval battle will win the decisive battle. Italy typically wins central med, but UK wins eastern med, because Allies only have 2000 planes stationed in Malta while Axis has Sicily and multiple bases in Libya to contest air with. Eastern Med meanwhile has Cyprus and Alexandria if not Palestine to provide air support from.

The reason the naval meta exists in its current state is that it's better to have more ships than to have fewer ships, even if the few ships are individually more powerful. The cheaper you can make your ships, the more ships you will have. You don't need to have expensive AA guns or sacrifice attack for dp secondaries when friendly fighters stop all the naval bombers for you.

Also, 1940 destroyers have 50 hp, which means that it takes multiple hits to sink one unless the enemy targeting it has 50 light attack. the more ships you have, the less likely that ship is to be hit multiple times. The targeting formula is random and ships don't get focused down. Also take into account that a 1940 DD with engine 3 will be decently evasive, and your destroyers won't sink nearly as often as you seem to think they will. People have run the tests.

EDIT
More info on naval targeting and AA, the typical thing to do at game start is to refit all your starting battleships and battlecruisers to carry only AA guns, since naval bombers heavily prefer to target them and carriers before anything else. They have enough hp to sponge the naval bombers attacks while your CAs and DDs don't take many hits because they are not targeted as much.

You do realize that the OP is in a singleplayer game talking about playing Germany as a naval power, right? You're talking about a multiplayer battle in the Mediterranean. You're also talking about massing empty destroyers for a fight that is going to have rampant subs (either as minelayers or raiders, or both) where minelayers are going to cause massive penalties to ship movement (80% speed loss; note that accuracy is reduced by ship speeds, so everything shot at these ships is going to hit). I also dislike people pulling the multiplayer and meta cards because it basically says that any opinion other than mine is wrong because some other people have gotten into a habit of all doing the same thing in our games because it seems to work.

For starters: the AI can be countered by far more strategies than just one. The AI is entirely willing to fight in places that are heavily mined, or that are in enemy air superiority (hence the frequent statements by veteran players that you can just bomb the AI into oblivion). Then there's the obvious factor that if most of your fleet has 0 AA while a few battleships have no light guns and max AA (and now are useless in fleet battles, and solely exist to get bombed...), then you can't move your fleet around safely without air superiority.

Then, in case you missed the irony here:
The reason the naval meta exists in its current state is that it's better to have more ships than to have fewer ships, even if the few ships are individually more powerful. The cheaper you can make your ships, the more ships you will have. You don't need to have expensive AA guns or sacrifice attack for dp secondaries when friendly fighters stop all the naval bombers for you.
This explanation of the "naval meta" fails to actually explain WHY at any point. It is a definition, not an explanation. I also like the logic that AA guns and DP secondaries are expensive, when you need fighters to actually shoot down the enemy bombers (fighters have an IC cost that's also pretty high, of between 22 and 28; they also all cost fuel, about 170 per 100 fighters compared to about 32 per light cruiser).

Resource costs are also an obvious problem. If someone wants a major fleet, then higher-tech ships (you mention 1940 destroyers) are going to increasingly cost steel, and later chromium, in large amounts. Germany (the nation in the OP's case) can afford steel costs at first, but has to purchase chromium and will eventually start running out of steel (and going closed economy hurts all your European allies that are likely buying all of your spare steel, although its fair that some players don't care about that). Refitting ships and repairing ships, by comparison, costs no steel. If I suffer heavy damage to 8 light cruisers and you lose 24 destroyers, you need to spend 2-4 steel per destroyer replacing them, while I need to spend 0 steel repairing my CLs. Refitting existing cruisers as time goes on is also pretty cheap, meaning that putting DP secondaries on existing ships in 1940 also costs 0 steel. This is rather amazingly-important since infantry equipment, artillery, and tanks are going to consume your steel stockpile rapidly (even if you focus mostly on aircraft).

Then the last bit: DP secondaries as an "expensive" sacrifice compared to CL-2 turrets:
CL-2 Gun: 275 cost, 5 damage, 7 piercing, -4% speed​
DP Secondaries: 290 cost, 4.5 damage, 8 piercing, -3% speed, 3 anti-air​
In other words, these actually slow ships down LESS than CL turrets, do almost the same damage, have better piercing (thus more damage against armored targets), and that's all without taking into account that they just happen to also carry 3 AA. CL-3 guns are a bit better (6 attack 8 piercing 300 cost), but also cost 1 steel PER GUN (meaning that 5 CL turrets on a heavy cruiser costs 5 steel more than a light cruiser, plus 1 steel for the heavy cruiser turret, for only 30% damage increase). The tech also takes longer to research than DP secondaries, and doesn't benefit capital ships (besides CAs). Steel economy to me is vastly more important in the late game than extra firepower on my cruisers.

Lastly, the mine issue. If you want to pull the meta card, then mining the crap out of your coastline and the English Channel with subs is going to give you up to an 80% penalty to enemy ship speeds, which means your point about needing to score 2 hits to sink a DD is now actually that every 2 light cruisers are going to sink a destroyer every single shot. By comparison, the DDs themselves are doing about 80% reduced damage due to armor and can't score critical hits, while the heavy cruisers only get 40% damage boost while screened and also fail to get any critical hits (8 armor isn't enough for much damage mitigation though). If 5 light cruisers engage a cost-effective enemy squadron, you're talking about only 2 heavy cruisers and 20 empty destroyers, which actually represent LESS light attack (even after screening bonuses) than the opposing fleet; the 20 DDs just represent about 40 shots from the CLs (and after 13 kills, the CAs are no longer screened), which means that they need about 8 hours in-game to sink the entire enemy destroyer force. That's how long the two CAs have to cripple the light cruisers, and while that is possible (if they ALSO mined the English channel), you need to sink the force within a single day or you are going to lose (since if two CLs retreat, I still have 3 CLs fighting that can sink another 36 destroyers in 12 hours).

Then there's the minor bit that even submarines can tear up that fleet pretty easily, since they'll be faster if the waters are friendly (and thus not mined by enemy ships). a full fleet of subs would kill 31 destroyers more-or-less instantaneously in those circumstances, then just need to survive 4 rounds to kill the entire remainder of the fleet; and 31 subs is a pretty small force for 1940.
 
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I was already pissed, then - of course - no Sudetenland for me, CZE in Allies, guaranteed by France and WW2 in late 1938.

EDIT: If Britain goes a change in course there is no Munich Conference. After they switch ideology they can't guarantee anymore. Fascist France does diplomatic freedom and removes her guarantees.

So normally in your game you could have aquired the Sudetenland without any major opposition.
 
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You do realize that the OP is in a singleplayer game talking about playing Germany as a naval power, right? You're talking about a multiplayer battle in the Mediterranean.
I was just using it as an example of air power being relevant in the naval war, it doesn't have to involve Germany to serve as a useful example.
I also dislike people pulling the multiplayer and meta cards because it basically says that any opinion other than mine is wrong because some other people have gotten into a habit of all doing the same thing in our games because it seems to work.
Dislike "pulling the meta card" all you want, people come to the conclusions they do because they've been proven to give better results than other strategies. It doesn't mean everything else is bad, just that other strategies aren't as good and will lose most of the time to someone employing the "best" one. Of course you don't need to be 100% min-maxing to win in single player, I just give advice based on what I feel the most optimal strategy is and I'm taking from the consensus of more than just myself.
For starters: the AI can be countered by far more strategies than just one. The AI is entirely willing to fight in places that are heavily mined, or that are in enemy air superiority (hence the frequent statements by veteran players that you can just bomb the AI into oblivion).
This is all true. I'm just giving my own advice to what I think is best for a surface fleet, not saying everything else is bad in SP. Indeed, NAV / Mines will basically destroy any navy once you have enough of either. But OP asked for advice on a surface navy, not advice on how many naval bombers to build.
then you can't move your fleet around safely without air superiority.
This is irrelevant because you're in full control of where you put your fleets. As Germany the only contested places you ever need to send your surface fleet are the English Channel and North Sea for Sea Lion and you'll have more than enough air bases in range. After Sea Lion you don't need a navy anymore unless you're going for world conquest.

I suppose if you're using surface raiders to sink convoys my build wouldn't work well, but the navy templates I was describing weren't for that purpose.
fighters have an IC cost that's also pretty high
Fighters are also highly versatile and crucial to any war, if you're not investing heavily into fighters regardless of your country or naval plans you're playing suboptimally. Typically half or more of your factories are going to be on planes the whole game anyway. Implying that you can build fewer FTR if you put AA on ships is a non-sequitur because you're going to build the same number of planes regardless. Any competant player will have more than enough planes to cover his navy with a few hundred fighters while maintaining air superiority on important land fronts, especially against the AI which doesn't prioritize plane production. Tanks and planes are pretty much the only things you put "extra" factories on once you have enough equipment to supply your infantry.
Lastly, the mine issue. If you want to pull the meta card, then mining the crap out of your coastline and the English Channel with subs is going to give you up to an 80% penalty to enemy ship speeds
I ignored mines in my posts because they're universally banned in MP and so I don't tend to think about them. That's my mistake since this thread is for single player so I should have mentioned them, but yeah. You're right about mines invalidating every other aspect of naval warfare. But if mines are part of the equation it literally doesn't matter what ships you have, you'll win every battle you participate in so it makes any discussion of optimal ship templates irrelevant.
 
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Paul.Ketcham

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Sorry if I seem jumpy, but I don't like someone disagreeing with me without actually pointing out how I'm wrong. I suppose everyone has a different opinion of how "respectfully disagree" works, and I just happen to be of the opinion that I'd rather save those for the less respectful ones (breaking forum rules, blatantly-wrong info) than for differences of opinion (where I feel its important to write the reason you disagree). I entirely understand that this isn't the normal view, but its how I think.

This is irrelevant because you're in full control of where you put your fleets. As Germany the only contested places you ever need to send your surface fleet are the English Channel and North Sea for Sea Lion and you'll have more than enough air bases in range. After Sea Lion you don't need a navy anymore unless you're going for world conquest.

I suppose if you're using surface raiders to sink convoys my build wouldn't work well, but the navy templates I was describing weren't for that purpose.

Fighters are also highly versatile and crucial to any war, if you're not investing heavily into fighters regardless of your country or naval plans you're playing suboptimally. Typically half or more of your factories are going to be on planes the whole game anyway. Implying that you can build fewer FTR if you put AA on ships is a non-sequitur because you're going to build the same number of planes regardless. Any competant player will have more than enough planes to cover his navy with a few hundred fighters while maintaining air superiority on important land fronts, especially against the AI which doesn't prioritize plane production. Tanks and planes are pretty much the only things you put "extra" factories on once you have enough equipment to supply your infantry.

There's a few things where I disagree in strategy, and others where I don't think we're understanding each other. When it comes to comparing AA versus fighters in cost, the cost is mostly decided before you build anything since fighters and cruisers don't use the same factories, or even the same resources (except fuel). Its not a case of being able to replace fighters with cruisers, as being able to use a fleet in contested or hostile air superiority and still fight effectively (not a recommended state, to be sure, but sometimes necessary when the Allies have a crapton of aircraft and you want a fast end to the war).

There's also the simple fact that I never play to just beat Britain and the USSR as the Axis. That lost its appeal after a few years in-game, particularly in singleplayer where its just too easy to outplay the AI. As a result, I'm thinking of far more than just the Baltic, North Sea, and English Channel for using a German fleet, and there's also the fact that I value versatility a crapton (hence why I strongly dislike using DDs without torpedoes or depth charges, which are far less effective against capital ships or submarines). Having the option to engage with a fleet in contested air superiority (or without carriers, since carriers will still get effective sorties off in contested air zones) is always worth a small cost (it really isn't that much to research DP secondaries ahead of time, but even waiting isn't that costly since you can refit them later when your steel costs start ballooning).

A big case for AA on ships, however, is when you're flat-out out of range of friendly airfields. Surface raiding against Britain is an excellent way to block their access to oil, which is a good way of killing both their navy and their air force. For that role, some of the seazones are out of airbase range, but others are not (most tend to hug the coast, other than a handful going through the central Atlantic). Commerce raiding in distant seazones tends to be a good way to avoid fighting the bulk of the Allied fleet while simultaneously sinking shipping (both transports and escorts, which they won't be able to replace fast enough) and the actual cargo (especially oil). South Africa in particular is an amazing site to raid near, as the Allies rarely get any surface units there.

I'll also point out that while the AI is crap at building new bombers, the British in particular tend to have thousands of planes. With the boosters on for extra production, they tend to get ridiculous air forces if you aren't also building a crapton of fighters (and Germany is somewhat set back by not having any fighter research bonuses, compared to Britain with 2). Fighters are also the only aircraft the AI bother to research new variants of, in most cases.

Ultimately, I'm willing to concede that your strategy has merit, but I'd argue that it is highly-vulnerable if someone is actively looking to counter it. I'd be looking at that and making capital ships and subs, since even without screens a battleship can handle heavy cruisers pretty easily, and torpedoless destroyers really aren't a threat (just a damage sponge; they can still sink subs occasionally, but subs can sink them more often). Just putting torpedoes in your destroyers turns them into a substantially-increased threat to a mixed fleet, since even light cruisers can be sunk by massed torpedoes.
 
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I don't like someone disagreeing with me without actually pointing out how I'm wrong.
I thought I had addressed the relevant things I disagreed with effectively enough in my post, but oh well. I truthfully do mean it as respectfully disagree when I use that reaction. We can agree to disagree on things, and it's not worth getting heated over or going into every tiny detail when it seems like neither of us are going to change our opinions.
There's also the simple fact that I never play to just beat Britain and the USSR as the Axis.
Fair enough, but I'm the exact opposite haha. For me, the combination of late-game lag and an inevitable conclusion take the fun out of playing after I've subdued Europe. To me it's just tedious years of the game creeping by extremely slowly while I island hop over to the Americas and build up a force of advanced enough planes with range to get green air over the massive zones in the USA to support a naval invasion.
(hence why I strongly dislike using DDs without torpedoes or depth charges, which are far less effective against capital ships or submarines)
I actually used to put one torpedo launcher on all my destroyers, but I stopped when I realized I was getting just as good of results without them. Also to me, the destroyers in the fleets you start with in 1936 usually have enough depth charges/torpedoes to last the whole game. Not building any additional ones doesn't necessarily mean your fleet doesn't have any, unless your country's navy is tiny. Even Germany with its 30 or so starting destroyers is plenty of coverage to me since there will be way more "naked" destroyers to take hits, the likelihood of the starting ones being targeted is quite low.
Germany is somewhat set back by not having any fighter research bonuses
The operations "Infiltrate Air Force" followed by "Steal Air Blueprints" gives any country a 300% boost and 1 or 2 year ahead of time penalty reduction on the plane of its choice when you use it on a country you're ahead of in air research. To do each of these once it's a combined 250 days or so. I tend to do this as Germany since like you said it doesn't have any boosts in its tree. Even when I don't do this, just hard-researching Fighter 2 with 30 days of saved research (juggling) is enough to get them ahead of time. Hard-researching may not be so relevant in this thread though, because I rarely invest in a navy when I play Germany, I just tend to build fleets of submarines to convoy raid and get superiority for as long as I need to launch naval invasions. If you're researching a bunch of naval tech it's a lot harder to hard-research ahead of time fighters without falling behind in something important.

Regarding air numbers, as Germany you have way more starting military factories than the UK, and you start with fighter 1 researched, while the UK only has interwars. I always put 15 factories on Bf 109s at the start of the game, UK has no way to match your quality or quantity with their 14 MIC at game start. With air xp gained by volunteers from the SCW, you can have a +5 engine/range FTR 1 in large scale production from 1936. Even if you don't steal blueprints and get Fighter 2 slightly slower than the UK, you will have way larger numbers of Fighter 1, and upgraded FTR 1 isn't completely garbage against FTR 2. It's inferior and will lose more than you shoot down against FTR 2 one on one, but the numbers advantage makes up for the shortcomings. Those will hold you over and keep green air wherever you need it until efficiency on Fighter 2 production catches up. Typically by August 39 I have about 4-5000 fighters and 1000 CAS for Poland and France, UK shouldn't be able to beat you in the air in single player.

Also relevant is the fact that player Germany will have the advantage of RADAR in mainland Europe at the start of world war 2 in single player. AI France and Poland don't research it so you'll get somewhat favorable trades even if you start seeing enemy Spitfires in large numbers before you have as many of your own Fw 190s.
I'd argue that it is highly-vulnerable if someone is actively looking to counter it.
This is actually part of what I love about La Resistance with the expanded intelligence features. They let you see what other players are building and you can adapt to counter pretty much anything. For example, you could put advanced subs in your fleet if you noticed I wasn't putting ASW on my ships, and I would only have the starting ships with depth charges (UK for example has about 170 DDs with depth charges at the start of the game, other countries less), and it might counter my initial fleet plan. However, I could counter your counter if I noticed and start putting my advanced ASW destroyers into my strike force as well as my normal anti-sub patrol fleets. And then you could notice and start doing something else to counter my counter of your counter, and the cycle continues...

Lastly, I hope there aren't any hard feelings. I get the impression you're offended by some of my views but I'm definitely learning a lot about other perspectives from this thread. You bring up some very valid points regardless of whether or not I personally think your strategy is optimal.
 
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I actually used to put one torpedo launcher on all my destroyers, but I stopped when I realized I was getting just as good of results without them. Also to me, the destroyers in the fleets you start with in 1936 usually have enough depth charges/torpedoes to last the whole game.

I'd keep the torpedoes even if just for realism in SP. Torpedo boats were a thing in ww2 and fought hard. Gun boats (same thing as a torpedo boat but without torpedoes), didn't really achieve anything AFAIK and were pretty useless.

The operations "Infiltrate Air Force" followed by "Steal Air Blueprints" gives any country a 300% boost and 1 or 2 year ahead of time penalty reduction on the plane of its choice when you use it on a country you're ahead of in air research. To do each of these once it's a combined 250 days or so. I tend to do this as Germany since like you said it doesn't have any boosts in its tree.

It's a true facepalm that if you "Steal Air Blueprints" from an advanced country like the UK, against +70% duration due to counter-espionage, you are punished with some useless carrier fighter 1 or something like that, but if you steal from Bhutan it gives you key info for a never seen before advanced plane ... They should give free plane + the bonus if you steal from the UK, and block stealing from people without any useful tech.

Typically by August 39 I have about 4-5000 fighters and 1000 CAS for Poland and France, UK shouldn't be able to beat you in the air in single player.

How do you deal with the lack of fuel? It's my biggest problem:

* Large surface fleet with BBs? No fuel after the first battles
* 5k fighters? No fuel, so I part half my airforce

I usually play on veteran and my answer is to trade max oil from everyone except Soviet Union and build tons of Synts. But then I look at the MIL intel chart and clearly the UK, SOV, USA starts catching up with me, since I have to stop building MILs to trade and build SYNTs....
 
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