Navy Germany

[Simon_9732495]

I want to reach global sea dominance as Germany in a somewhat historical setting.
That means engaging the royal navy in an open fight and winning big.
What do I need?

I was thinking about:

• 4 1936 CVs with 50% FTR, 50% NAV and 4 1936 BBs together with ~10 Light Attack CLs and ~50 as cheap as possible DDs for the main strike force.
• Few of the 1936 SS for raiding in the atlantic.
• Some CLs with max floatplanes for patrol.
• Some Smaller strike forces with 1 CA and 10 Light Attack CLs
• Do I need "good" DDs or ASW-DDs?
• Lots of Fighters to be superior (or at least to compete) in the Air
• (I think I will avoid using loads of land based Naval Bombers, because that's too easy.)

Does it matter how I equip the BBs in that setting?
What is important for the CAs in the smaller CA/CL task forces?
Is 30ish Dockyards enough until 1939 when I capture some more?

 

[blahmaster6k]

Just build 1940 CAs with full light batteries and radar, try to get to 50 light attack (pick up techs that increase light attack), and basic pre-war destroyers (or 1940 with coastal defense designer) with a single light battery and as good an engine as you have researched, and nothing else. As long as you fight battles under green air you should win every battle. You don't need any battleships or carriers at all. Just spam those two kinds of ship with the coastal defense designer to make them even cheaper. More ships >>>>> better ships.

 

[SophieX]

4 1936 CVs with 50% FTR, 50% NAV and 4 1936 BBs together with

Put one more capital into this force, to get a 5:4 higher capital/carrier ratio, in order to avoid the loss of effiency, when loosing 1 capital.

Do I need "good" DDs or ASW-DDs?

You need both; but reflecting on the aim to win against the Allies-navy, I recomment to focus more or most on torpedo-DD.


I never played Germany in this way, so I would very appreciate, if you could share the results with us.

 

[Simon_9732495]

You don't need any battleships or carriers at all.

I want to use them for flavor. Global naval dominance in the 1940s without CVs feels wrong.

Just build 1940 CAs with full light batteries and radar, try to get to 50 light attack (pick up techs that increase light attack), and basic pre-war destroyers (or 1940 with coastal defense designer) with a single light battery and as good an engine as you have researched, and nothing else. As long as you fight battles under green air you should win every battle.

Thank you for the CA advice!
What would the task force look like? 5 CAs 25DDs or something?
Are light attack CAs better than light attack CLs? I was thinking about using light attack CLs. They dont require screens.

Put one more capital into this force, to get a 5:4 higher capital/carrier ratio, in order to avoid the loss of effiency, when loosing 1 capital.

Thx, I will.

You need both; but reflecting on the aim to win against the Allies-navy, I recomment to focus more or most on torpedo-DD.

What would be the use of them and what the advantage compared to as cheap as possible DDs?

I never played Germany in this way, so I would very appreciate, if you could share the results with us.

I will

 

[cnwi]

The best way to get rid of the Royal and US navies with Germany is first to build around 1k naval bombers, the AI will then keep on suiciding its ships on your shores until they have no navies anymore.

 

[SophieX]

What would be the use of them and what the advantage compared to as cheap as possible DDs?

Torpedos are deadly weapons in sea-combat. To maintain screening-effiency your screen should be able to counter attacks of the enemy screen in order to reach 3 goals:
- decreasing the enemy screen to maintain own screening
- decreasing the enemy screen to decrease their screening-effiency
- decreasing the enemy screen to get time to torpedo-attack the enemy-main force

Like a chain a taskforce is as weak as their weakes part; so I recommend not to build DD a cheap as possiible, but as fighting-capable as needed for being a valuable part of a task-force you decribed above.

 

[blahmaster6k]

What would the task force look like? 5 CAs 25DDs or something?
Are light attack CAs better than light attack CLs? I was thinking about using light attack CLs. They dont require screens.

As many of each as you can afford is the typical task force.
The reason for 50 light attack specifically is that they have enough LA to one-shot a Destroyer 3 hull (same reason as you want 60 torpedo attack when attacking convoys). The benchmark is 40 for destroyer 2 hulls and 25 for destroyer 1 hulls

Light attack CAs are better than light attack CLs because they are not targeted by light ships. CLs will take hits from enemy screens, but CAs will only take hits from capital ships, of which there are much fewer. The reason you build cheap destroyers as your screens is to spread damage received among as many ships as possible, so the least possible number of ships take multiple hits and die, and there are more screens to screen your capitals i:e your CAs. Meanwhile the light attack CAs will sink enemy destroyers ideally in a single shot each, while not taking return fire from anything except other capitals.

CAs also have the lowest hit profile of all capital ships, so they will evade more hits than battleships and battlecruisers. You can also build way more of them than you can build BB or BC, and a numbers advantage is important for spreading around received damage so ships don't go down.

Also, iirc the coastal defense designer is bugged and doesn't correctly apply stat penalties to cruiser hulls, so you get the cost reduction bonus with none of the firepower drawbacks, but don't quote me on this (even if it's not bugged it's still the best because of superior numbers of ships fielded).

Like a chain a taskforce is as weak as their weakes part; so I recommend not to build DD a cheap as possiible, but as fighting-capable as needed for being a valuable part of a task-force you decribed above.

I agree with part of this. Usually the destroyers you start the game with have enough depth charges to counter submarines they might encounter in a major pitched battle, and you don't need to build more, but having at least some ASW in your main surface fleet is definitely important. Usually players / AI won't have subs in their strike force though, so it doesn't matter a lot of the time. The best defense against torpedoes is just having as many destroyers as possible, since they dodge torps very well and screen capitals from them.

Speaking of torpedoes, they are great for sinking capitals, but they're not at all necessary. Taking cost into account, if you have 50 expensive torpedo destroyers with torpedoes that do just as much damage to enemy screens as a basic cheap destroyer (since screens usually dodge torpedoes), but facing them is 150 cheap destroyers with 3x the light guns that cost the same as said 50 expensive destroyers, assuming both sides have equal IC cost of other forces the side with 150 cheap destroyers will win 90% of the time. Torpedoes are great at sinking capital ships, but even without them the fleet of cheap destroyers and CAs will sink capitals just as easily because of critical hits. If you have 150 destroyers with 1 light gun each shooting at the capital line once all enemy screens are sunk, that's 150 chances to roll critical hits to cripple and/or sink the enemy capitals, while the destroyers still can dodge most heavy attacks due to their low hit profile.

Even though you can't pierce the enemy hulls, the critical hits will come regardless and when they do you can say goodbye to the enemy capitals with broken rudders, detonated magazines, knocked out batteries, fires, and other problems.

 

[HugsAndSnuggles]

More ships >>>>> better ships.

Positioning suffers, though - gotta take that into account.

Usually players / AI won't have subs in their strike force though, so it doesn't matter a lot of the time.

Subs don't need to be in the strike force (if anything, it's counterproductive due to their speed - unless you're into SHBBs): subs raiding in the same zone can also join the battle.

 

[SophieX]

Speaking of torpedoes, they are great for sinking capitals, but they're not at all necessary. Taking cost into account, if you have 50 expensive torpedo destroyers with torpedoes that do just as much damage to enemy screens as a basic cheap destroyer (since screens usually dodge torpedoes), but facing them is 150 cheap destroyers with 3x the light guns that cost the same as said 50 expensive destroyers, assuming both sides have equal IC cost of other forces the side with 150 cheap destroyers will win 90% of the time. Torpedoes are great at sinking capital ships, but even without them the fleet of cheap destroyers and CAs will sink capitals just as easily because of critical hits. If you have 150 destroyers with 1 light gun each shooting at the capital line once all enemy screens are sunk, that's 150 chances to roll critical hits to cripple and/or sink the enemy capitals, while the destroyers still can dodge most heavy attacks due to their low hit profile.

Nothing wrong, what you stated.
But I reflected on the OP statement, that the like to play "in a somewhat historical setting".
Regarding the "fact" that Germany mostly put more focus on quality than on quantity, I suggested the "torpedo-DD", which doesn't mean that each available slot must be filled with a torpedo-launcher; a compromise of of costs and torpedo-power would be a good solution.

 

[blahmaster6k]

Positioning suffers, though - gotta take that into account.

True, but imo it's not a big enough penalty to matter pretty much ever.

Subs don't need to be in the strike force (if anything, it's counterproductive due to their speed - unless you're into SHBBs): subs raiding in the same zone can also join the battle.

Correct on the first part, but I have a question about the second. Do subs set to convoy raid really join naval battles of their own volition? I thought they only entered battles where there are convoys present.


EDIT to avoid double posting:

But I reflected on the OP statement, that the like to play "in a somewhat historical setting".
Regarding the "fact" that Germany mostly put more focus on quality than on quantity, I suggested the "torpedo-DD", which doesn't mean that each available slot must be filled with a torpedo-launcher; a compromise of of costs and torpedo-power would be a good solution.

True, I didn't really pay attention to that first bit, I just saw "naval advice" and went from there.

 

[HugsAndSnuggles]

Correct on the first part, but I have a question about the second. Do subs set to convoy raid really join naval battles of their own volition? I thought they only entered battles where there are convoys present.

Sure do. These are default subs Japan has (set on raiding):

These are cruiser sub patrol (which I set to 3-6 subs... probably, had only 2 at the time) + wolfpack (12 subs) on raiding:

No convoys in either battle.

 

[Simon_9732495]

It's mid 1938 now and I have:

1CV, 4BB, 4CA, 8CL, 26DD, 18SS

Production queue:

I chose to build cheap DDs and rushed the CVs.
I think that was a mistake, I thought i will take a lot more time. Could have done the CVs later...

However, now I'm researching the Cruiser Hull and will design soon a light attack CA and a spotting CL.

60CIVs, 40Docks, 31MILs, no Refineries, 2.5 Collaboration Government missions.

 

[TheMoe]

It's mid 1938 now and I have:

View attachment 609750

1CV, 4BB, 4CA, 8CL, 26DD, 18SS

Production queue:

View attachment 609751

I chose to build cheap DDs and rushed the CVs.
I think that was a mistake, I thought i will take a lot more time. Could have done the CVs later...

However, now I'm researching the Cruiser Hull and will design soon a light attack CA and a spotting CL.

60CIVs, 40Docks, 31MILs, no Refineries, 2.5 Collaboration Government missions.

I love the naval side of the game and I'm quite excited for you! It's a shame you're not streaming this, since I would certainly watch. Best of luck! Edit: Please don't keep us in suspense. Let us know how things go and please include some screen shots of decisive naval battles.

 

[Mister Analyst]

@Simon_9732495

I am curious as to the type and quantity of carrier planes that you plan on producing and what naval strategy you intend to employ.

 

[Simon_9732495]

Update: LOL, what a failure.

I deselected historical focuses in the game settings to spice things up a little bit and thought I will fight the UK and France anyway.
And it went ugly.
First the spanish war was short and China and Japan had some kind of peace. No Army XP for me. (Ok, not that bad.)
Then Austria refused Anschluss.
-> Had to go to war
-> No cores in Austria
-> Mefo Bills payment due.
Sigh...

I was already pissed, then - of course - no Sudetenland for me, CZE in Allies, guaranteed by France and WW2 in late 1938.
I tried to quickly break 1 Fort and outmicro CZE from the inside, while getting pushed a bit from france. (I set UK, France, USA, Soviets to max buffed in the game settings for more challange)
At some point I notified some convoy raiding and quickly decided while microing in CZE to patrol a bit in northern sea and set my main fleet to strike force, to hunt some DDs. (At this point you know already what happend... )

As I looked up to the north sea next time:

Spoiler: Naval Battle

Completely unprepaired, no air expect the 72 starting NAV operating from Hamburg, brought CVs without planes at all to the battle...

And the UK and France brought their combined doomstack (6CV, 15BB, 150DD) and pulled my pants down.

What's left: 2 damaged CVs, 1 damged BB with 5.8 months repair time...
So my naval ambitions are over in that game.

I will start a new try with my Navy Germany and will report in this thread.
But not right now. I have lost my navy, but not the game. Not giving up yet.

 

[kettyo]

-> No cores in Austria

That's a serious shortcoming of the game. You should be able to core Austria and the Sudeten with PP expenditure in case you've got them by conquest.

It's funny you can core Alsace but not Austria

 

[TheMoe]

Update: LOL, what a failure.

I deselected historical focuses in the game settings to spice things up a little bit and thought I will fight the UK and France anyway.
And it went ugly.
First the spanish war was short and China and Japan had some kind of peace. No Army XP for me. (Ok, not that bad.)
Then Austria refused Anschluss.
-> Had to go to war
-> No cores in Austria
-> Mefo Bills payment due.
Sigh...

I was already pissed, then - of course - no Sudetenland for me, CZE in Allies, guaranteed by France and WW2 in late 1938.
I tried to quickly break 1 Fort and outmicro CZE from the inside, while getting pushed a bit from france. (I set UK, France, USA, Soviets to max buffed in the game settings for more challange)
At some point I notified some convoy raiding and quickly decided while microing in CZE to patrol a bit in northern sea and set my main fleet to strike force, to hunt some DDs. (At this point you know already what happend... )

As I looked up to the north sea next time:

Spoiler: Naval Battle

View attachment 609798

Completely unprepaired, no air expect the 72 starting NAV operating from Hamburg, brought CVs without planes at all to the battle...

And the UK and France brought their combined doomstack (6CV, 15BB, 150DD) and pulled my pants down.

What's left: 2 damaged CVs, 1 damged BB with 5.8 months repair time...
So my naval ambitions are over in that game.

I will start a new try with my Navy Germany and will report in this thread.
But not right now. I have lost my navy, but not the game. Not giving up yet.

Wow, I would think that the naval game as Germany would be hard enough without buffing the other countries. Yes, that was certainly a doomstack! It was fun while it lasted, though!

 

[sekelsenmat]

I also tried building a large surface fleet as GER and it is really hard to beat UKs doom stacks. You might have more fun if you restart until the UK does "A change in course" as first focus in non historical and goes fascist. So no more world spanning allies, and you can try to take the majors out one at a time.

 

[SophieX]

There is still one aspect, which is obvious, but sometimes beeing overlooked: geography.

Allies navy units could moslty reach a safe port undisturbed by axis ships or planes, when going to repair after being damaged in a battle.
Axis navy do not have this advantage ( except from a few regions like the Mediterranean ); their damaged ships are mostly permanent under the threat of being attacked when going for a repair-port after battle.

Means also, where axis navy could be better attacked; Allies navy could be better protected, mostly by planes in both cases.

I know, that's "easy" what I write; but to quote Clausewitz: "Under war-condition even the easiest thing is difficult"

 

[Simon_9732495]

Wow, I would think that the naval game as Germany would be hard enough without buffing the other countries.

I think you are right. I play Germany a lot and usually buff all my enemies to increase difficulty. But I still have to learn a lot about building up a navy and maybe I should learn in normal mode.

You might have more fun if you restart until the UK does "A change in course" as first focus in non historical and goes fascist.

The UK took that focus. Allies are still existing, but French is not in them.
France went facist and had a guarantee on CZE, when I attacked them. So I was at war with the UK and France.
France took "Latin Entente" and at some point in 1939 Italy suddenly joined the war against me.
Plan was doing Danzig or war and getting some Guns from Poland. Now I'm at war with UK, France and Italy and lack 25k Guns...


Maybe I can get some feedback for my Naval Designs:

CV:

Spoiler: CV

CA:

Spoiler: CA

CL:

Spoiler: CL

DD:

Spoiler: DD

SS:

Spoiler: SS