• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

Vanguard44

Britannia
26 Badges
Dec 5, 2006
807
228
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Cities: Skylines - Campus
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife Pre-Order
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Cities: Skylines
  • 500k Club
  • Semper Fi
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Darkest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
Ok so I'm whining (kind of.) I'm playing as British (36) and I have been absolutely and utterly raped by Italian naval bombers. It took me a while to change the settings to pause when my fleets are being bombed, so at least now I know I'm being nuked. It's not just that my surface fleets are losing - this is understandable - but even CVs aren't impregnable to NAV attack. So;
1. How do I defend against Navs?
2. If I can't, isn't that a bit OP?
 

Nadion

First Lieutenant
26 Badges
Feb 9, 2010
202
0
  • Darkest Hour
  • Europa Universalis III
  • For The Glory
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Iron Cross
  • Semper Fi
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Sign Up
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris
  • 500k Club
  • Crusader Kings II
honestly - i modded the game to give Carriers more air attack. am still losing ships to nav bombers (including one really ugly incident involving the loss of 3 carriers and a battleship a week before pearl harbour fired) but generally its not as extreme.

if you don't want to mod the game your left with allocating AA / IH attachments to your all your ships and spamming as many Light Cruisers as you can afford to act as escorts.
 

xtfoster

Field Marshal
52 Badges
Feb 8, 2006
5.866
2.196
  • BATTLETECH: Flashpoint
  • Tyranny - Tales from the Tiers
  • Tyranny - Bastards Wound
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • BATTLETECH - Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Shadowrun: Hong Kong
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • BATTLETECH: Season pass
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Sign Up
  • BATTLETECH: Heavy Metal
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Deus Vult
  • Europa Universalis III
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Majesty 2
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Semper Fi
  • Supreme Ruler 2020
  • 500k Club
  • Hearts of Iron II: Beta
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Tyranny: Gold Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • BATTLETECH
  • Surviving Mars
I have to say, if you are losing to Italian Naval bombers, it is only your fault. You should base some interceptors on Malta and other bases around the Med and use them to control the skies. The place where it is hare to defend against Naval bombers would be in the Pacific where it is harder to base Interceptors (or fighters for the longer range) within range of the areas the Naval bombers are going to be operating.
 

Rotten Venetic

Field Marshal
6 Badges
Jun 10, 2006
4.289
10
  • Darkest Hour
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • 500k Club
You mean multi-role fighters; I don't think INT can always range against NAV, even in the Med depending on where you need your ships to be (though Sicily and the Calabria area are within reach of Malta-based advanced fighters).

As for the Pacific, well you just have to attack when the enemy's NAV are not present, or bring some old-school capital ships to hopefully soak some damage away from your carriers. Or, if you're the USA, just use more.
 

Rotten Venetic

Field Marshal
6 Badges
Jun 10, 2006
4.289
10
  • Darkest Hour
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • 500k Club
That too. A continent is one hell of an aircraft carrier :D
 

datachild

First Lieutenant
42 Badges
Jan 13, 2009
253
1
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • A Game of Dwarves
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Iron Cross
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Darkest Hour
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • 500k Club
  • Victoria 2
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
Welcome to "real world" land based NAVs would defeat any carrier fleet thats why you dint see them much in europe.
This. I was allways frustrated, that despite my complete air superiority over the English channel as Germany the royal navy could operate more or less undisturbed in this waters or anywhere near europe.
If this figure is still valid one plane in game stood for 100 in reality (maybe even more, since otherwise the amount of planes build in a normal game doesn't make sense). If your fleed is attacked by a stack of 4 nav bombers, maybe even with fighter/interceptor support, you can image that even a bigger fleet with carriers would be anihilated within few hours. Conclusion you shouldn't operate near air bases, if you haven't air superiority.

EDIT: As a comparison to the 1 NAV in game = 100 NAV in reality. The USS Wasp could transport only around 78 planes and they were distributed into fighter, interceptor, etc.
 
Last edited:

Rotten Venetic

Field Marshal
6 Badges
Jun 10, 2006
4.289
10
  • Darkest Hour
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • 500k Club
An air unit stands for about 100 aircraft (well, more like 50-100), and even the continental shore areas are quite huge. In your case, that fleet would rather be driven back with big losses and maybe a third of its ships on the bottom of the sea. Annihilated? Not so much. Also, imagine having to coordinate a naval bombardment mission with 4,000 freaking planes... and have fun with the migraine.
 

Sakkura

Lt. General
100 Badges
Oct 6, 2009
1.389
110
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • 500k Club
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Victoria 2
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Steel Division: Normand 44 Sign-up
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
Welcome to "real world" :) land based NAVs would defeat any carrier fleet thats why you dint see them much in europe.
You totally stole my line. :(

@ the thing about having to attach AA to all your ships... what ships IRL didn't do that? Everything from subs to battleships was crammed full of AA guns, because air power was just that lethal to ships.
The only real gripe here is that CAGs can't properly engage enemy bombers as they would IRL, but that's a general shortcoming of the way HOI2 and derivatives model carriers. HOI1 tried to make CVs into floating airbases and failed miserably... Maybe HOI3 will nail it, but they still have soo many flaws to fix on that game.
 

It'satrap!

Captain
12 Badges
May 24, 2009
490
0
  • Hearts of Iron Anthology
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Darkest Hour
  • Deus Vult
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Diplomacy
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • 500k Club
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Rise of Prussia
I have to say I am thoroughly enjoying Darkest Hour and many of the changes which were added. I have to say one of the more interesting aspects is the increase in the airpower. I learned this lesson, painfully, in my most recent game of Kaiserreich. I was playing as France and had most of my military (including my Air force) concentrated on the German and Belgium border. Although I was able to maintain air superiority in Belgium and parity over the German Border… I bided my time and eventually launched an offensive against Italy.

I left the northern Italian front pretty much without air cover, not expecting much resistance from the Italians... Little did I realize that the AI concentrated their entire Allied MittleEuropa air power in Italy. I was rapidly able to advance some of my spare armor and infantry units across Milan and threaten Venice: Only to discover that in a few months most of my Tanks and Mobile infantry were annihilated on the Austrian border!
 

Mjarr

Lt. General
10 Badges
May 8, 2009
1.251
114
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Darkest Hour
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • March of the Eagles
  • Penumbra - Black Plague
  • Semper Fi
  • Victoria 2
  • 500k Club
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
Welcome to "real world" :) land based NAVs would defeat any carrier fleet thats why you dint see them much in europe.

As much as air based aircraft are serious threat to any fleet, NAV being able to bomb the crap out of fleets at will is somewhat unrealistic for several reasons:

1. It is basically impossible to form up and coordinate very massive formations and bomb with any reasonable precision, even more so since ships tend to be relatively "small" targets to perform proper level bombing at altitude + it's a moving target with ability to "dodge". Performing 1000+ aircraft industrial raid is diffrent as the target is static, the flight is somewhat pre-planned and it occurs within the course of 6-12 hours total, while roughly speaking the game acts as all bombers would drop their load at once and repeat it over the hours. This also presents in-game logic problem, as if bomber has no ordnance it's quite useless -> return to base. Sure they attack in waves, but given the moving target the odds are the attack is more or less out of sync over the course of time.
2. WW2 torpedoes required aircraft to fly low and slow and severe emphasis on both words (ignoring later US torpedoes). Keeping constant 50m altitude with relatively small room for error (just for the sake of example) with let's say 250km\h speed makes you pretty neat target when flying in a formation once you're spotted, and the (common) torpedo must be released at least 1500 - 2000m* prior the target. Combine this with relatively slowish torpedo, unless the (war)ship is under major harassment from other aircraft or under fire for other reasons it's not too difficult to perform basic evasive manouvres. Bombs on the other hand pretty much require you to go in close. The odds for sinking the ship are greater, but the odds for going down in flames are also proportionally greater the closer you are to the target.
3. While it's gameplay related quirk, most TACs can do the same as NAV realistically speaking as per 1930s 1940s technology.

While I am not trying to discredit air force threat on naval strategies and some other things, how many genuine warships land based aircraft sunk during the war besides Prince of Wales and Repulse compared to carrier based aircraft? The ratio is pretty small, merchant shipping is another story and even with PoW and Repulse sinking two major warships vs ~100 aircraft took close to two pretty much for them both to be out sleeping with the fishes. Then with more larger fleets even when most of the CAG aircraft would be engaged for other duties than protecting the fleet, the odds for major flak and pursuing fighters to break off the formation are pretty notable, unless the attack involves other fighter aircraft to tie the enemy CAG and flak.

Of course if it's DH team decision to have such gameplay balance it's another story and against non-CVs the impact is far more noticable, but then again let's have moderate sized fleet with some CVs, some BBs and screens and it might be another story to sink them in a nanosecond.

*I must clarify though that it might be more of "recommended" range, even though I recall reading reports that common torpedo that's released too close will usually fail to penetrate\detonate properly. Anyone with bit more solid info? ;)
 
Last edited:

Mjarr

Lt. General
10 Badges
May 8, 2009
1.251
114
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Darkest Hour
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • March of the Eagles
  • Penumbra - Black Plague
  • Semper Fi
  • Victoria 2
  • 500k Club
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
Less than 30 British biplanes (!) put half the Italian navy out of action in 1940, and the Italians knew they were coming.

Taranto strike was pretty much the main inspiration behind Pearl Harbour, ships remaining stationary in an harbour are relatively easy targets and add element of surprise and it can cause pretty interesting damage even with obsolete eguipment.
 

gradenko_2000

Second Lieutenant
39 Badges
Oct 21, 2010
140
0
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Supreme Ruler: Cold War
  • Semper Fi
  • Rome Gold
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Naval War: Arctic Circle
  • March of the Eagles
  • Majesty 2
  • Magicka
  • King Arthur II
  • Iron Cross
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Cities in Motion
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Darkest Hour
  • Deus Vult
  • East India Company Collection
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • For The Glory
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Achtung Panzer
  • Pride of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Elven Legacy Collection
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • 500k Club
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
how many genuine warships land based aircraft sunk during the war besides Prince of Wales and Repulse compared to carrier based aircraft? The ratio is pretty small
The metric is biased though, since people KNEW that Land Based Aircraft were dangerous and stayed well out of their way. We didn't see a lot of warships getting sunk by LBA in the Pacific War, for example, because the entire point of the US island hopping strategy was for their TF to minimize exposure to Japanese LBA, while at the same time taking back patches of land that are already within range of Allied LBA as well.
 

Mjarr

Lt. General
10 Badges
May 8, 2009
1.251
114
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Darkest Hour
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • March of the Eagles
  • Penumbra - Black Plague
  • Semper Fi
  • Victoria 2
  • 500k Club
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
The metric is biased though, since people KNEW that Land Based Aircraft were dangerous and stayed well out of their way. We didn't see a lot of warships getting sunk by LBA in the Pacific War, for example, because the entire point of the US island hopping strategy was for their TF to minimize exposure to Japanese LBA, while at the same time taking back patches of land that are already within range of Allied LBA as well.

Yes that is true. Things could have gone very diffrently but most parties involved in the war learned their lessons surprisingly fast regarding that. However unless DH (as I am waiting for my copy) has changed distances in the pacific to be far more drastic or modified something else, the impact of island hopping is still possibly quite nonexistant on ingame terms it's easy just to ignore navy focus altogether (for most of the time), garrison islands and just stack up NAV around instead.

It's close to an odd uncanny valley situation where it's realistic but it's still not entirely realistic yet it's still sort of realistic while it's still not :p
 

nessin

Major
115 Badges
Feb 21, 2007
621
5
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Majesty 2
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Semper Fi
  • Sengoku
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
  • Warlock 2: Wrath of the Nagas
  • 500k Club
  • Magicka
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Pride of Nations
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Darkest Hour
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Cities in Motion
  • Cities in Motion 2
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Ancient Space
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Impire
  • Iron Cross
The metric is biased though, since people KNEW that Land Based Aircraft were dangerous and stayed well out of their way. We didn't see a lot of warships getting sunk by LBA in the Pacific War, for example, because the entire point of the US island hopping strategy was for their TF to minimize exposure to Japanese LBA, while at the same time taking back patches of land that are already within range of Allied LBA as well.

Actually there are tons of examples where Land Based Aircraft were almost certainly able to complete destroy a naval force. Why didn't that actually happen more often? Those LBA never actually found the fleets. There is nothing wrong with Naval bombers owning fleets, there is something wrong with the fact that they're almost guaranteed to spot a fleet. Your recon plans (or whatever) had to find the fleet, report back the location, the aircraft called to readiness, and actually get off the ground to get in formation before finally heading in that direction. Pretty much every time Land Based Aircraft in a strike package found naval forces, the naval forces were brutalized.