Navies?!?!

[Mr.Bigglesworth]

Soviet Union is my specialty, but I just started a game as USA, and I need some general advice on navies, and specifically on how to take out Japan's navy (who is also human controlled). Japan has doubled his subs so far, and built a couple destroyers I think.

- Should I group all my ships together?
- Should certain ships be grouped together?
- Where should my navy be based out of?

And probably more questions to come....

 

[unmerged(12746)]

From the UK perspective

Welcome to the Allied cause Biggles...

1. Definately consolidate your navy into fleets of 12. Achieving a mix is perferrable, battleships, crusiers destroyers. Always have 25% of your fleet destroyers (4units) the make up of the rest is up to you however I like to have 1-2 carrier fleets. Im not sure how many carriers the U.S. has but I tend to consolidate them into 2 fleets with Crusier and destroyer support.

2. Groupings should be for battle fleets and hunter killer groups. Battle fleets are your surface ships crusiers battleships, hunter killer groups consist only of subs and destroyers. The hunter killer groups are very effective based out of the Phillipines and can really wreck havok on Japanese shipping, remember he has a lot of convoys going hit him there and he will be forced to build destroyers for defense or more transports, either way you make him adjust and he has to spend IC's to defend his convoys. I dont know the exact compostion of the US fleet but I tend to go with 4 destroyers and the rest crusiers battleships as the groupings.

3. Basing fleets is tricky but it seems you have identified Japan as your prime opponent. Base those hunter killer groups in the Phillipines. Battle fleets you should move to sea zones where the U.S. has beach heads for now, as the U.S. you dont have a massive defense force, are expected to land in europe sometime, and fend of the Japanese. That leaves little pickings for the defense of the states. Your starting fleets can easily handle any amphib assaults. I recommend that you use the Philipines as your primary Pacific base, just look at its location your right there and you know if you build it up the Japanese will have to defend against it or will attack it. At least you will know where they are and in my expirence I have seen a few decisive battle faught in the phillipines.

Fleets are hard when they are new, it sucks because you cant strat redeploy which makes organizing them more of a pain then ground troops, but apply the logic of ground forces to your fleets. Battleships= tanks, crusiers= mech inf, destroyers= inf. The nice thing you get here is subs, and for the price you get maximum bang for the buck, there tough can fight surface fleets (not realistic but a reality) and hit convoys. If you have the UK as an ally the two of you should be able to rule the seas, just remember those fleets are your homeland defense to start in 36, unless you build units thats all you have to defend the U.S. and you know how MP is anything can happen.

Odin

 

[unmerged(13894)]

Research decent med. range subs and choke him off I like to have my carrier groups (9 ships) with CA and DD only-no slow BB.(I know carriers are reduced effectiveness, but if you have at least 1 fgt on board, you can see a lot of ocean, specially when your radar tech evolves)
Then have a couple of groups with 4-5 BB, 2 DD, and rest CA, for a total of 12. Then attach some transports (9 or 12). I also like to have a few 3-ship (1 CA, 2 DD) groups for screening and recon, as well as taking out any small groups. You can also sit them on supply routes, and they are going to be faster than even your carrier groups. If you've ever tried Japan SP, you know that it's either build ships or build troops, and in your particular game there are 10 Japanese divisions on the Indian border.

If you play SP, you can usually get buy without building any capital ships, but I'm sure that a human opponent will cause you some losses that will need replacement.
Also, in this particular game, you could probably send half your original Atlantic Fleet to Pacific, for some reason Italy is not an immediate naval threat

 

[Diefledermas]

I'm pretty much a land power guy too, have some exp. with merchant raiding but that's about it.

just how good are carriers and their airwings? what is a good mix of planes for these carriers?

 

[unmerged(14715)]

"Always have 25% of your fleet destroyers (4units)" by Odin


This should say 33% (4 units in a stack of 12).

 

[unmerged(12746)]

Your Right

Yep 33%

I dont mind be corrected when I am wrong anyone that knows me knows I am wrong my fair share and admit it.

So good catch rodentdung.

 

[unmerged(12746)]

The truth is

Originally posted by Diefledermas
I'm pretty much a land power guy too, have some exp. with merchant raiding but that's about it.

just how good are carriers and their airwings? what is a good mix of planes for these carriers?

I havent had a whole lot of opportunity to develop naval air power. My approach to navies are probably very similar to your approach to land armies. As the UK if you build up IC's in india africa and the carribean in the begining, your IC research budget is pretty limited and myself I focus on Inf techs. Carrier fleets are air transports really at least for me, in 36 as the UK you have 4 fighters and 2 tac bombers on Britian. The problem with UK is you cant redeploy your airforce in india and place it in Britian it has to go back to India if you do a strat redeploy, same with inf units. Its a fair aspect of the game for the UK I suppose, it eliminates a potential exploit of reorganizing your airforce and placing them where you need them, it would have taken a long time for the trip from India to Britian for a tac air force so the lack of redeployment works for that, but you start up tac air force is spread out.

So I use the carriers that way, I normally consolidate my Tac Airforce and station them on the carriers and keep them around the Med for hotspots. At least this way you can get all of them in one army which is prudent for an early North African battle with Italy.

So I usually develop Tac bombers and use the Carriers as convoys and mobile air bases. If the americans come to the Pacific and you assault from Hong Kong having a carrier force with Tac bombers is a nice supplement to the ground assault. The same application can be used for Fighters for intercept missions.

Floating air bases for support of land assault missions is how I primarily use Carriers, I just havent had the Tech, the Ic's, or the time in MP to really develop a Naval air force and test its functionality.

Odin

 

[unmerged(13894)]

Carriers aren't anywhere NEAR as powerful as they should be, but they do have some good uses (I don't generally build extra carriers as Britain).

First of all, if the US, forget about torpedo bombers. You need naval bombers and MR fighters, grouped in 2's (1 fgt, 1 nav.). You can use them (better with improved range planes) to hit shipping, enemy transports will take a beating. You can interdict lightly guarded transports in adjacent sea zones, either sinking transports (and/or ground troops), or at worst force Japan to keep all transports well guarded. If you have a few carrier groups, within striking distance of each other, when you spot a Japanese fleet, you can hit from several directions. Again, you won't do the damage you should with carrier air, but the multi-direction bonus will help. As well, his ships will certainly be damaged and lose org, while only your planes are damaged/disorg. You can then move in with a surface action group and finish them off. And Japan can't replace ships like you can. Once you have their Navy beaten, refer to the post above.
Ummm..... maybe go up 2

 

[unmerged(12746)]

Re: Re: Your Right

Varak:

Have you had much success using carriers as sea assault forces? I havent, and normally my fleet becomes engaged before I can maximize any air assault in a sea zone. Have you tried this with Tac bomber units? There is a naval bombing value for Tac bombers I believe and they are intitially (with the UK) stronger to start so Im inclined to think that using Carriers for tac bomber assaults maybe the way to go even with Naval engagements, any data on this?



Odin

 

[Mr.Bigglesworth]

Re: From the UK perspective

Thanks to everyone for their help so far

Originally posted by Odin1970
1. Definately consolidate your navy into fleets of 12. Achieving a mix is perferrable, battleships, crusiers destroyers. Always have 25% of your fleet destroyers (4units) the make up of the rest is up to you however I like to have 1-2 carrier fleets. Im not sure how many carriers the U.S. has but I tend to consolidate them into 2 fleets with Crusier and destroyer support.

In SP I used to keep my ships in fleets of 12, but in MP I've seen a lot of Japanese players keep all of their ships in a single uber-fleet. These huge fleets, even with the large disadvantage of so many ships getting the out of command penalty, can tear through 12 ship fleets. So, how do I defend against that? Should I still split up my ships, or keep them in the same fleet?

 

[unmerged(13894)]

If he does come out with one huge fleet, maybe you can get some smaller groups around and past it, cut his oil supply, he will have to chase you, he can't afford the loss of oil. Use Australia as a safe haven, try to have some fighters in Darwin and port there when he threatens. If you have 3-4 good fighters, you should be able to hold off any carrier air, his heavies can't get you, and (hopefully) the Australian AI will defend against an impromptu invasion. He will then either have to leave his fleet there, or move away. when he moves away, you spread out and nip him again, repeat as necessary. Then when you've built a fleet twice the size of the Japanese Navy, come out and clobber him

NOTE: I've never tried that, but it seems like it might work

 

[unmerged(12746)]

Re: Re: From the UK perspective

Originally posted by Mr.Bigglesworth
Thanks to everyone for their help so far



In SP I used to keep my ships in fleets of 12, but in MP I've seen a lot of Japanese players keep all of their ships in a single uber-fleet. These huge fleets, even with the large disadvantage of so many ships getting the out of command penalty, can tear through 12 ship fleets. So, how do I defend against that? Should I still split up my ships, or keep them in the same fleet?

Thats a good point biggles, In that case I would keep tabs on the ledger and watch his fleet totals, if he has one massive stack he is short somewhere else. Remember Japan normally takes China and then has to defend all its islands, unless he has mamoth manpower reserves a percent of his fleets are going to be needed for defense. With the U.S. your kinda trapped here dude, to start the game your navy is your defense, so placing it all in one stack will leave you dangerously thin, and the U.S. with one naval fleet is easy pickings for an expirenced player who can amphib.

Just remember you have twice the Ic's of Japan in production alone if you want, you can churn out ships at an alarming rate if you want to and by end 36 have 3 times the ships he does. If he does stack like that your in trouble for the initial battle, just make sure you have support fleets available. I prefer 12 to a fleet but I normally keep 3-4 fleets within range of each other so if you can manage that you get 48 ships in a battlezone with superior attack bonus to your opponent who has been penalized for to many ships under his 1 commander.

Managing fleets isnt simple particularly in MP, just be flexable and make sure your fleets are always in support positons to other fleets. In addition gauge the UK player and see if there are mutual sea areas you both can patrol expanding your coverage. add your other allies to the equation, normally if you can have 3, 12 div fleets capable of flooding a seazone you can hold your own. I havent seen the uber stack in my MP play but its certainly a viable threat, one not easily dealt with. Just remember your the U.S. and if you choose you can have the largest navy in the world in no time. Think of naval forces for the U.S. like infantry for Russia, its your starting strength and its your opponents starting strength as well (Japan).

So lets say you devote 100 Ic's to naval production and build subs. Thats 4 Ic's a sub and 2 manpower and 100 days production time for each 25 subs built, that equals 75 subs by October. Japan cant equal that, add that to your exisiting fleets you will be fine, but remember that commitment ties your hands for a naval defense of the U.S. and a lighter research budget, but Subs are pretty powerful naval forces in HOI for a short expense.

Odin

 

[unmerged(14068)]

I play UK normally just a couple of time Japan and I have never play USA. With the UK Fleet I normally Keep them in one very large group and a smaller one to move my transport in dangerous zone and defend Uk. Keeping small group of ships is a bad move in my opinion. With my large of 60-70 ships when I catch a fleet of 12 or 30 ships the opposing fleet will die in a matter of seconds and will lose any battle they will engage after because of the lost they had. Transports should always be keep in a small separate fleet with a couple of cruisers and destroyers to defend again small subs group, transport must avoid engagement in a battle Because they get slauter . As for Convoye protection well they are not a problem for any other country then Japan. People that waste time killing 10-20 ships with subs should reallize that UK have full ressources at the start of most war in 1937-1938 and around 4000 ships unused for other convoye plus Port Said and I always keep a good stock pile of supplies in Port Said, Bombay and Singapor.... Japan have less merchant ships so it's a little more important for Japan but not vital except in the final stage when preparing the invasion of USA. Your fleet is there to protect your transports when you move your troops make landing and defend again them. Attack and defend convoye is a distant second thing. The only thing I do before seriously moving again Japan is to upgrade my cruisers. It's cheap and require little time to do.

 

[unmerged(14068)]

As for the impact of the Naval Bomber and torpedo plane on carriers. I never really notice a big impact but I do upgrade my torpedo plane and make some Naval bomber. I use them in land engagement most of the game and move them in the carriers only when I'm planing an offensive move again Japan.

The most important part about the Naval battle or any battle is to know your ennemy and what objective you want your fleet to achieve. You will rarely see a player produce a lot of ships the first couple of years. If the Axies have to plan an invasion of USA or UK, keeping a close watch on the ennemy fleet composition will become more important. Since you need to be able to crush them as USA/UK. Early in the war your fleet is usefull to make surprise landing to cut the supplies of invading forces and prevent units that are caught to receive reinforcement or evacuate. The risk of a landing is not really big since your fleet would crush it and it's easy to defending again a landing with troop that have little amphibious tech.

As for the 12 ships fleet I can tell you I have seen those fleet go from 1 200 point to about 300 in one turn of battle again my 6 000 fleet Then the second fleet arrive and the same thing happen... 300 +1200 vs 5400 etc... Remember those battle often happen really fast and your plan of making a coordinate attack from mutiple directions maybe nice in theory but in practice a fleet of 60 ships will do better then 4-5 fleets of 12 in my experience and opinion. The leadership bonus will not make a big difference as the number will.

 

[unmerged(1095)]

Rodent Dung is gone for a lie down
I will clean this up in a moment and reopen.

 

[unmerged(12746)]

good point

Originally posted by Thorrek

As for the 12 ships fleet I can tell you I have seen those fleet go from 1 200 point to about 300 in one turn of battle again my 6 000 fleet Then the second fleet arrive and the same thing happen... 300 +1200 vs 5400 etc... Remember those battle often happen really fast and your plan of making a coordinate attack from mutiple directions maybe nice in theory but in practice a fleet of 60 ships will do better then 4-5 fleets of 12 in my experience and opinion. The leadership bonus will not make a big difference as the number will.

I just have never expirenced it myself but I have had big naval battles with 50+ ships on either side, but never against one uber stack. So if you have that expirence I defer to it completely. My strategy with navies came from my expirence from playing germany and having multiple army attacks from multiple attack points and getting the increased offensive bonus from it. Thats my logic when approaching fleets anyway but I have been wrong enough times in my life to know that every strategy has a counter, your expirence is further evidence of that.

Thorrek Im intrested to know about your expirence with Naval bomber fleets for ground assaults. I normally just build tac bombers and base them on carriers for a mobile air base. Do you find that your naval bombers are effective for land assaults? If so what level of development do you need to get to ? Initial tac bombers for the UK start with a 1 for naval attack power, equal to initial naval bombers. I havent developed a naval bombing fleet to check the land attack values but Im curious if you have. Any data on this would be much welcomed.

 

[Mr.Bigglesworth]

Originally posted by varak
If he does come out with one huge fleet, maybe you can get some smaller groups around and past it, cut his oil supply, he will have to chase you, he can't afford the loss of oil.

How do you cut off the oil of a fleet at sea?

 

[unmerged(14068)]

I used the all the planes at the start in tactical bombing because all planes have a certain air attack and air defense. The more plane will participate in the air defence the more effective the defense will be, same thing for the attack. Of course the naval bomber will not do any damage in tactical bombing but will fight if they are intercept.

For exemple if you intercept 3 tactical and 3 fithers with 4 fithers and 4 naval bomber you defense will be more effective then with only 4 fithers.

 

[unmerged(14068)]

As for moving my planes with the carriers. I never used my carriers for moving planes. UK got enoeuf territory all over to be able to move your planes anywhere you want very fast. At the start of the game I take the tactical bomber in Singapor and India and move them to the west coast of india then in the arabic peninsula then in north africa, across the french territory into corsica in south of france, across france and right in England. Don't forget you can move you forces across all Allies country if you look at the Map maybe the only time you would need carriers to move would be to go in Canada and maybe even there you don't have to, I didn't try it. In defensive combat you can move your planes where you need it without carriers. When you make a landing and want air support they are usefull then.

 

[ErikHeinrichs]

There isnt any penalty for commanding 50 ships instead of 12... same for air units. Its not working for some reason or its meant to be so. It kind of sucks because you can stack 40 tac bombers and be almost unstoppable =/