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Tiarilir

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Is it just me who's really sad about the changes? I feel that the utter destroyal of a losing navy severely breaks any depth to the naval warfare tactical options.
This thread mainly spawned due to losing 30 carracks instantly in a supposedly even fight.

The intention can't, surely, be this function?
 

LeKaiser

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I like the changes. It makes naval power more useful as a strong navy can actually reliably destroy enemy fleets instead of just scare them off. Previously, with a weaker navy you didn't have to keep as close an eye on it, as if you got in over your head, the worst case scenario was that you sail back to port with no losses other than morale and a couple months of repairs.

That said, I haven't experienced what you're talking about - losing 30 carracks "instantly" seems pretty extreme even given the new changes. I'm still able to get out of a losing battle without losing my entire fleet unless I'm tremendously outmatched.
 

Morgan Wight

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I like the fact that a decent number of ships actually get blown up during the combat itself, but the loser having his fleet annihilated almost every time gets pretty silly.

Middle ground, Paradox. Middle ground. ;)
 

Casadoom

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1.5 naval combat is infinitely better than it was before. However, I will have to agree that fleets die far too often and a reduction of casualties would be appreciated.

An alternative solution would be a much faster and efficient way of constructing ships from naval bases. For example, allow +1 ship construction at a time for every naval building in a province or something like that.
 
Jan 28, 2007
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What I'm more interested in is how come the AI always stays in battles "until the bitter end" or would that be too hard to code and perhaps lead to frustrating rage threads of why the AI always runs away and ping-pong times of defeating their navy/troops.

I always turn tail and run usually after half morale is gone and its evident I'm not lasting.
 

sinkingmist

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How it worked before, except "captured ships" replaced with "sunk ships" would be about right I think.
There are a bit too many losses now.
That said, I prefer now to before.
 

Saintrl

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Remember guys, you can always retreat after a certain amount of time from a Naval battle if things are getting too rough in order to save your ships and cut your losses. Before 1.5 the game practically did this for you since there were hardly no losses and ships would shattered retreat back to home ports. I like having do this manually now since it adds real value to keeping your fleets alive resulting in some pretty tense moments where it's cat-n-mouse in the big ocean woods.
 
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Yes I think now is far better than before. It might need some tweaking though.

It bears closely to real world situations. If you feel your navy is weak you LEAVE IT IN PORT because you know you're going to lose it if you send it out. Seems fair.

Having said that losing an entire navy (it does happen but not all the time) is pretty brutal but it often doesn't come as a surprise when it happens because if you're not comparable or greater than your enemy you should already know your going to cop a pounding.

Also on the flipside its really REALLY satisfying to sink the enemies navy. Seeing all their ships go by by usually results in me getting riled up shouting "cop that you b***h"
 

sinkingmist

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Remember guys, you can always retreat after a certain amount of time from a Naval battle if things are getting too rough in order to save your ships and cut your losses. Before 1.5 the game practically did this for you since there were hardly no losses and ships would shattered retreat back to home ports. I like having do this manually now since it adds real value to keeping your fleets alive resulting in some pretty tense moments where it's cat-n-mouse in the big ocean woods.
AI don't though, which is a fairly important point.

Actually, I think in general, being able to order retreats is OP, especially since the AI only does it under certain conditions, while a human can abuse it (and the resultant shattered retreat immunity) to gain a substantial strategic advantage over the AI.
I now have a personal rule to not retreat early, to keep myself even with AI, because the advantage is so great.
 

Yxklyx

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Naval combat was just fine before 1.5 - don't know why they had to change that. It's too easy to obliterate the AI fleet now as they don't use leaders as much as they should - and they never retreat.
 

emilsson

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I really like that both sides can have ships sunk in a battle now, not only the losing side. That almost never happened before. However -- as others have mentioned -- the AI could be better at retreating.
 

Saintrl

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AI don't though, which is a fairly important point.

Actually, I think in general, being able to order retreats is OP, especially since the AI only does it under certain conditions, while a human can abuse it (and the resultant shattered retreat immunity) to gain a substantial strategic advantage over the AI.
I now have a personal rule to not retreat early, to keep myself even with AI, because the advantage is so great.
Sometimes the AI doesn't need to do this because they took Naval Ideas and has a fleet 4/3 the size of mine. I took Quality Ideas so I kill 10% more ships as they do but it's a losing battles in the long run as any ships I lose I cannot replace while they can just keep the pressure on with a larger fleet. :/

I think this change makes Naval Ideas slightly less OP because even in a large battle they'll lose 1/3rd of their fleet where before they wouldn't lose anything at all while trashing my fleet to less than half size. Now they actually lose something and I know my fleet did some damage back at least. Of course, if you have the bigger fleet things start to get a little broken as players will just consolidate all their heavy ships into one huge fleet to hunt down any opposition.

Middle Ground? Yeah, probably could use a few tweaks but it's not top priority in my opinion.
 

TheMeInTeam

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I don't think 1.5 mechanics would be a serious problem if the AI knew how to retreat. You will lose some stuff if you retreat, but nowhere near whole navy. A human player can easily just run away losing 3-4 ships out of 30+. The AI? It'll sit there until every last ship is no longer seaworthy, even in hopeless situations.
 

RELee

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Defeated the Castille Armada with only 3 Carracks remaining to my English navy. Surprised the heck outta me! I thought it was a bit of a drastic change, but I've been able to deal with it. Luckily the Grand Navy only only requires 20 large ships instead of the 50 required before. I was able to bounce back from that disaster fairly easily.
 

Homer2101

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The AI isn't programmed to retreat once it engages. It will fight both land and naval battles to the end. Programming retreat is probably not very easy; AI programming in general is difficult, because seemingly-straightforward logic can sometimes lead to rather odd outcomes.

Anyways. I'm starting to wonder if somehow the capture mechanic for ships was broken in the latest patch. I had a rather odd experience by accident a few days ago, sadly on an Ironman game so I cannot replicate it easily:

My fleet of 12 early carracks engaged a 24-ish fleet of assorted ship types. Because I forgot to set the naval funding slider up before declaring war, my fleet's morale was very low. After my fleet's morale went to 0, my ships started disappearing from the battle information screen when they hit about 50% hull. My guess is that these ships were supposed to have been captured. But after the battle was over, all of my ships but 3 were reported sunk; the 3 survivors retreated to port.

The problem is not the lethality of fleet combat itself, but the lethality combined with the current naval AI, shipbuilding time/cost, and importance of naval power for controlling the profitable seaborne trade routes. It is currently much too easy to trap and destroy AI fleets, provided that the player does not do something silly in the process. And once the AI fleet is destroyed, it very rarely is able to build its forces back up to challenge the player's naval supremacy before the next conflict, and the cost of ships means that the loser of a major fleet engagement will fall behind in infrastructure development, at least in the first hundred years of the game.

If the AI could better control its fleets, and not patrol with four heavies when the player has twenty heavies two regions over, then the current system would be awesome. As it stands, naval battles mean the player either hunts down the AI fleets and annihilates them, or does so later.
 

emilsson

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The AI isn't programmed to retreat once it engages. It will fight both land and naval battles to the end. Programming retreat is probably not very easy; AI programming in general is difficult, because seemingly-straightforward logic can sometimes lead to rather odd outcomes.

Even though I try to be careful to not underestimate the complexity of AI programming, in this case the AI already has the good judgment to try to avoid encounters it cannot win. So if it is smart enough to do that in the first place, then it should be able to retreat once given the chance.
 

Korashy

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But I like building 100 Heavies and sinking the entire 600 Strong english fleet with barely any losses because light ships go boom. (well and he didn't doomstack all 600 of them).

But yeah, toning it down to about 2/3 of what it is now would be good. It's kinda of ridiculous that absolutely no one gets away. Ever.
 

Yxklyx

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  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
Yeah, they need to fix this. Right now even as Netherlands I have little incentive to get Naval ideas. Not only does the AI not retreat but they are not smart like with armies. They will continue moving to a sea zone even though they can see your superior fleet moving to the same zone - which armies don't do.