Naval Tradition not nearly equal to Army Tradition.

[jockedahl]

I've noticed a problem with the traditions.

Naval Tradition is almost impossible to raise while army tradition is really easy to raise.

Even playing as a merchant republic your army tradition is going to be three times higher than the naval tradition most of the time.

This is because:

1. In a war there are many more battles on land than on sea. Every battle gives army tradition. So even a 20k troops vs 1k troops give you army tradition. So every smashing of other troops raises it.

Against navies you only have two major battles. One where you defeat their navy and they retreat to harbor and one final battle when you've occupied the province they were docked in so they were forced out.

2. Protect trade doesn't raise the naval tradition enough. Even as a merchant republic maxing your force limit and going all light ships protecting trade you hardly get rid of the decay percentage. You won't have any fighting ships then either.

Either protecting trade should raise the naval tradition much more, since countries without navies can't protect trade. This to offset the much much smaller of naval tradition gains by warfare compared to armies.
I don't know how England or Castille has it in this issue yet. But I think it's really sad when a coastal merchant republic like Venice get's three times the army tradition when it's so naval focused.

My other idea is that blockading ports should raise naval tradition! I don't think it does this at the moment and frankly I don't know if paradox has thought of it.

This is a good idea because if you use your army to siege the coastal provinces you stop gaining naval tradition. But if you just blockade you won't get enough warscore so it's kind of a tradeoff of what you want to do. But it would have to be balanced so you can't max naval traditions off of one war ofcourse!

 

[firelordzuko]

Actually I think having a large army / navy (say, in the top ten of the world) should get you a minor monthly increase in tradition. You can also get naval tradition for exploring sea provinces, so it seems to be aimed more at Atlantic powers than Mediterranean one, which is a shame.

 

[jockedahl]

Actually I think having a large army / navy (say, in the top ten of the world) should get you a minor monthly increase in tradition. You can also get naval tradition for exploring sea provinces, so it seems to be aimed more at Atlantic powers than Mediterranean one, which is a shame.

One other thing I think could help this problem could be to allow galleys to protect trade but at a lower efficiency than light ships!

I think this idea that was posted in another thred was a great one and would aid this problem too.

 

[firelordzuko]

One other thing I think could help this problem could be to allow galleys to protect trade but at a lower efficiency than light ships!

I think this idea that was posted in another thred was a great one and would aid this problem too.

That was actually my idea (Though I think there might have been someone else who said the same)

 

[Peter Ebbesen]

I've noticed a problem with the traditions.

Naval Tradition is almost impossible to raise while army tradition is really easy to raise.

And this is good.

Why, you might ask?

Because naval tradition is an income multiplier since it dominates trade steering. High naval tradition trumps all other sources of trade steering, including that which you get from taking the Trade ideas. The level you currently get from merely protecting trade is certainly good enough.

It is very difficult to acquire a high naval tradition in the early game; To acquire it requires the player to work much harder for it than army tradition, but the rewards are greater. (After all, if you are a nation for whom naval tradition is important, you are also going to be a great trading nation - at least if you know what is good for you).

Key to high naval tradition is Naval Ideas, Innovative Ideas, and building the Admiralty while having large trade fleets active.


If anything needs to be changed at all, it should be reducing the rate of gain of army tradition, and I am not convinced that that is necessary.

 

[Grimsley]

Assuming that it works the same way as prestige and prestige decay, if you are playing a naval nation and take the right ideas, naval tradition isn't that hard to raise (at least mid-late game with the right nations).

Say you're playing GB: if you take the innovative -2% naval tradition decay idea, have a +1 naval tradition from a naval college, +1 naval tradition from the naval idea, nearly +1 tradition from a large number (30 or so) of light ships protecting trade worldwide and the +0.25 national idea bonus you'll be on nearly +3.25 NT a year with only -3 decay at 100 naval tradition. In other words, if I have the mechanics right, your tradition will always increase to 100 if below that value - even at peace - and faster at lower levels.

The great thing is that even without one or more of the above factors, your NT will still equalize at a particular value which gets higher with each one you eventually acquire, as well as degrade slower when above said value.

 

[hjarg]

So, how much light ships actually increase naval tradition?

 

[Keinwyn]

You can also get naval tradition for exploring sea provinces, so it seems to be aimed more at Atlantic powers than Mediterranean one, which is a shame.

I'm not sure this is true any more. It certainly was in EUIII, but in my Portugal game I didn't notice my Tradition rise from exploration. It seemed to give me prestige instead.

 

[beckermt]

2. Protect trade doesn't raise the naval tradition enough. Even as a merchant republic maxing your force limit and going all light ships protecting trade you hardly get rid of the decay percentage. You won't have any fighting ships then either.

Light ships are perfectly combat capable and even moreso than galleys on the open ocean. They are also useful in peacetime, balancing them with the early-game inland sea effectiveness of galleys.

If you expect to spend less time in war, then build more light ships. More time in war (and in inland seas!), more galleys. Trade-offs, like always, are the name of the game.

 

[hjarg]

I'm not sure this is true any more. It certainly was in EUIII, but in my Portugal game I didn't notice my Tradition rise from exploration. It seemed to give me prestige instead.

Yea, kept my eye on it- no naval tradition from exploration. Unfortunately, or you'd be swimming in 100 naval tradition as Portugal. Well, until you'd run out of things to explore at least.

 

[Hootieleece]

In EU3, Naval Tradition was gained through exploring. Exploration and founding Colonies bumped Prestige also. Often as England, Portugal, Netherlands(or any Naval oriented country) you could get up to 100% Naval Tradition just by Exploration alone and by the time it decayed Taking Seahawks and building a Admiralty nullify the Decay. After you have Naval Supremacy. All you need is a leader that has maneuver pips(Thus Excellent Shipwrights NI) to get positioning bonuses.

 

[unmerged(303856)]

And this is good.

Why, you might ask?

Because naval tradition is an income multiplier since it dominates trade steering. High naval tradition trumps all other sources of trade steering, including that which you get from taking the Trade ideas. The level you currently get from merely protecting trade is certainly good enough.

It is very difficult to acquire a high naval tradition in the early game; To acquire it requires the player to work much harder for it than army tradition, but the rewards are greater. (After all, if you are a nation for whom naval tradition is important, you are also going to be a great trading nation - at least if you know what is good for you).

Key to high naval tradition is Naval Ideas, Innovative Ideas, and building the Admiralty while having large trade fleets active.


If anything needs to be changed at all, it should be reducing the rate of gain of army tradition, and I am not convinced that that is necessary.

Isn't the solution here to decrease the effect of naval tradition on trade steering? I do think it is strange that army tradition is so much easier to acquire, and several of the suggestions here (particularly the one about gaining naval tradition from blockades) seem like sensible additions to the game.

 

[jockedahl]

I just want to be able to have a good naval commander considering I will most likely pay 1 diplomatic point per month on him since I can only afford one leader. That one leader would be my general as I don't want my Doge as a military leader, especially if I'm building him up with the new system making him more powerful. It saddens me as a naval trade nation to sit with a 4 shock 4 fire general and a 1 fire 2 shock admiral only from beating small 2k armies that Ferrara and Manatua threw at me.

 

[Peter Ebbesen]

Isn't the solution here to decrease the effect of naval tradition on trade steering?

Not if you want to be damn sure that nations with high naval tradition dominates trade steering, and that does appear to be a design goal.

 

[crazy canuck]

Not if you want to be damn sure that nations with high naval tradition dominates trade steering, and that does appear to be a design goal.

Agreed. The one thing I like the most about this version of the game is the increased importance of naval power and the hoops one needs to jump through to get it.

 

[Keinwyn]

Maybe the opposite then? Decrease Land tradition gained via battles?

 

[unmerged(303856)]

Not if you want to be damn sure that nations with high naval tradition dominates trade steering, and that does appear to be a design goal.

And I think it is a good design goal, but that there is still some room for refinement of its implementation. I'd like to see naval tradition made more attainable, and I think that the earlier suggestion of a gain from blockading makes sense. If easier naval tradition necessitates a decrease in its effect on trade, then that is a price I will happily pay. However, it is a very minor issue, and one that I am confident mods will be available for shortly after release.

 

[Belissarius]

Another thing to consider is that NIs that give naval leaders a bonus to maneuvering are also significantly more powerful than may appear on the surface. And while not directly effecting your naval tradition their synergy with Naval tradition NIs can't be ignored.

 

[Peter Ebbesen]

Maybe the opposite then? Decrease Land tradition gained via battles?

If anything needs adjusting where tradition is concerned, something I am not convinced of is needed in the first place, that is the way I would go, as the current implementation makes the army tradition ideas and buildings pretty much obsolete for anybody who wages constant war.

On the other hand, they are still useful for people who only wage war every now and then, so it is not as if they are rendered obsolete in general by the current implementation.

 

[Peter Ebbesen]

Another thing to consider is that NIs that give naval leaders a bonus to maneuvering are also significantly more powerful than may appear on the surface. And while not directly effecting your naval tradition their synergy with Naval tradition NIs can't be ignored.

There is one such NI, it is in naval, and it is awesome. It is the sort of thing that might even make an MP player assign an admiral to a trade fleet if he was in a particularly tough trading situation and felt he had MMP to spare due to how maneuver boosts light ship trade power.