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legitxmalarkeyx

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I am wondering if in Hoi4 you can capture naval vessels like you can with other equipment I.E tanks and guns. I remember playing as Nat Spain in Hoi3 and after beating the Republicans their navy just disappeared which left Spain with out a naval give or take some transports I think? Also know of at least one historical moment were the British sunk a french fleet to stop the Germans form capturing the fleet. So I kind of think that should be added if its not already in the game. If anything, it would help Minor nations a bit. I just feel like the navy's shouldn't just disappear. I can understand if say a member of the allies has a fleet in open water or based in a friendly port and gets to keep its fleet but to just have them go and vanish doesn't seem right. I feel like I might be grasping at air but if it can be do to tanks why not ship?
 
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JerkyJerry

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I don't know. I think I would like the fleet to be scuttled if at sea and surrendered if at port at the time of capitulation.
I just got the impression that IRL the scuttling of a fleet or multiple ships became rather newsworthy and many countries took notice?
 

Denkt

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Given that many axis ships was captured by the victors after the war, I think it is no more strange to capture ships then it is to capture other equipment.
 

Nordmore

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Some ship in the Royal Norwegian Navy did also escape the german attack like HNoMS Sleipner, but most of the ships was either captured or sunked and many of those ship that was captured was outdated coastal defence ships like HNoMS Tordenskjold.
 

Nicolas I

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Isn't naval ship a pleonasm ?

In the context of HOI4 I cannot think of another kind of ship as a naval one.

EDIT: My mistake, my apologies to the OP. See post #14.
 
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JerkyJerry

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Nicolas I

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French ships went to Britain after the fall of France though

look up Operation Catapult.

And Mers-el-Kébir : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_on_Mers-el-Kébir

And the scuttling of the French fleet in Toulon in november 1942: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scuttling_of_the_French_fleet_in_Toulon

3 battleships (scuttled)
7 cruisers (scuttled)
15 destroyers (scuttled)
13 torpedo boats (scuttled)
6 sloops (scuttled)
9 patrol boats (scuttled)
19 auxiliary ships (scuttled)
1 school ship (scuttled)
28 tugs (scuttled)
4 cranes (scuttled)
12 submarines (scuttled)

3 destroyers (seized by Germany)
4 submarines (seized by Germany)
39 small ships (seized by Germany)
 
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JerkyJerry

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ple·o·nasm
ˈplēəˌnazəm/
noun
  1. the use of more words than are necessary to convey meaning (e.g., see with one's eyes ), either as a fault of style or for emphasis.
Part one:
The use of more words than are necessary...... There were two words; Naval Ship
Part two:
either as a fault of style or for emphasis........ I'm just not so sure there was a whole lotta style (whatever that means in a forum context) and I think the emphasis is even lower?

Now I believe there are cargo ships in HOI4? As I think there was something just recently posted about canals and different rules that can be set that may allow trade to pass but not this that or the other? Then there is the whole goods be trading thingy.

So therefore IMHO, and it is just my opinion in the context of HOI4 and this forum that the two words Naval Ship are not a pleonasm. And I will stand by my answer and reasoning for as long as I feel it is important to you.
 

Nicolas I

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...Now I believe there are cargo ships in HOI4?...

OK, I got it. There seems to be different meanings for naval.

In french (my mother tongue), naval = related to ships, related to navigation. So all ships are, by definition, naval. The translation of this meaning in english must be nautical.

In english, naval = Of or relating to a navy (a country's entire sea force). Therefore correct use.

So it's my mistake, my apologies to the OP.
 

JerkyJerry

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Axe99

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This is a really complex problem, made even more complex by governments in exile and fleets sometime scuttling instead of surrendering even if ordered otherwise. There were military ships that were captured by all sides, just like there were ships that escaped to be part of Governments-in-exile but they weren't really significant in the scheme of things*, but the circumstances surrounding the various captures and 'escapes to serve with Governments-in-exile' are pretty complicated.

* The non-military fleet of Norway, on the other hand, was quite important to allied merchant marine capacity early on, while the allies also took good advantage of captured German merchant ships.

For example:
- Had Germany looked like it was going to seize the French fleet, there's a fair chance France would have scuttled, like they actually did in 1942 when the Germans tried. On the other hand, when the Allies took North Africa, significant naval forces, including a modern Battleship, changed sides without a fight, but that same battleship had taken part in fighting off an Allied attack earlier in the war.
- When Italy surrendered in 1943, the Italian navy sailed to Malta and surrendered to the Allies, but wasn't really used in an operational capacity due to concerns over reliability and loyalty, even though Italy had technically changed sides and they weren't captured but were still Italian ships fighting for Italy.
- Japan commandeered a number of captured vessels from the US, UK, Netherlands and China, even after it had sunk them first (it raised and repaired them, before using them).
- At the end of the war, remaining naval vessels were generally captured by the Allies, but most were scuttled or broken up.

At the end of the day, the only large transfers of vessels intact took place when one side already had overwhelming naval superiority. When the situation was more contested, there tended to be scuttlings or escapes to fight with Government's in exile, with limited captures that were fairly insignificant in the scheme of things. Given the complexity of the rules that would be required, for little benefit, and the risk of things going crazy haywire if done badly, at least starting off with it not being in the game makes a lot of sense, and maybe flesh it out later when there's more time available to focus on it.

That said - I think there's value in considering full (or mostly full) captures of fleets at the end of civil wars.

Well, some did, and only after a fight...

France is a special case, though, as there will be events to form the French State if the Third Republic falls.

look up Operation Catapult.

There were a number of French vessels that were operating in British or Commonwealth ports went straight to the Free French (obviously not those at Mers-el-Kabir!), others stayed with Vichy forces in colonial areas and generally went over to the Allies when the territories they were based in did, unless they were sunk first (Catapult), while others were stationed at Toulon, scuttled in 1942 and some of the smaller vessels were refloated and pressed into Italian or German service. It was such a mess, that at one point, one Bougainville-class sloop manned by Vichy (Bougainville) was sunk by a Free French Bouganville-classed sloop (Savorgnan de Brazza). Both French ships of the same class, both manned by French sailors, one sinking the other!
 
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legitxmalarkeyx

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Isn't naval ship a pleonasm ?

In the context of HOI4 I cannot think of another kind of ship as a naval one.

EDIT: My mistake, my apologies to the OP. See post #14.


To be Honest I agree with the point you made it'a kind of a pleonasm like Panzer tank for example. I wasn't thinking when I named the thread, thanks for bringing it up thought I wouldn't have noticed it. Besides it's to late to fix it now anyway.
 

LordOfWar16

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To me it don't sound any more unreasonable then captured equipment during peace treaty.
the majority of ships was sunk or fled tho. Only very few were actually captured compared to the total naval strenght. Germany did also scuttle as much ships as they could before they got overwhelmed. Ships and for that matter planes could easiely escape and join allied forces unless they werent sea worthy or ready to fly or even simple suprised by the enemy.

With tanks and guns it is a different story, since more often than not they were abandoned (even tho against their order) by their crews and left behind. Thats actually how the UK got hands on Tiger 131, which was standing abandoned on a hill in africa.

That stuff aside, they probably dont allow it for balancing purposes to begin with. Imagine germany seizing a rather big chunk of the french navy (including battleships etc) and also a good chunk of their air force. That could easiely snowball out of controll if germany just invades all of europe for example.
 
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