Naval repair

[HistoryMan]

Still think ships in game should be "completed" at about 75% strength, then have to "repair" (fit-out and work up) to get to 100% in the first place after construction. That would also allow you to sail nearly completed ships away from threatened dockyards, a la several Dutch and French ships, for example.

 

[sunsterson]

Really interesting thread. I agree with alot of the points.

 

[Dan1109]

Yeah, I'd like to see a mechanic, for ship repair to only take place out of dry dock ports. Normal naval bases can supply ships, and give the customary bonus to re-org. But repairs, na....you have to go home. That will make the Pacific campaign very interesting. Also, the bigger the dry dock (assuming they can be built, like in HOI3 various mods), the faster the ship can repair. Therefore minor damage can be patched somewhat near the battlefront, but major repairs, you have to limp back home.

 

[Dalwin]

Still think ships in game should be "completed" at about 75% strength, then have to "repair" (fit-out and work up) to get to 100% in the first place after construction. That would also allow you to sail nearly completed ships away from threatened dockyards, a la several Dutch and French ships, for example.

I think this is a great idea that would fix or at least alleviate a few game issues. It is also a better representation of reality.

Though this might be less true for non-capital ships, especially DDs and subs.

 

[plasticpanzers]

3 Port types with 3 different symbols (trying to keep it simple as my initial suggestion without including ship designs)
plain anchor: Port size for supply (1-10) but cannot repair ships more than to 33% damage (ie: ship would remain 65%
damaged) even if you take it out of the port and put it back in it cannot repair more than that level. Represents
anchorage up to port size 10 for cargo unloading but minimal yard capacity
anchor in circle: Port size for supply (4-10) cannot repair ships more than 50% damage (ie: ship cannot repair beyond 50%).
Represents anchorage with some dockyards and major cranes and repair facilities.
anchor in square: Port size (6-10) can repair ships up to maxium 100%. Represents achorages that have major ship
construction and repair facilities incmajor drydocks.

Atolls are always simple ports (simple anchor). Island can be mid sized (anchor in circle). Continental Ports (major construction
sites) can be max (anchor in square) and can be built up to that size with port marker changing. Atolls cannot change but
Islands can go from simple port to midsize port by building more ports in location. Note: Repair rates do not equate to ability
to unload/load supplies, the two would be considered separate.

To illustrate: Japanese BB Kongo gets whacked off Guadalcanal. 80% damage. Move it to Rabaul where it can be repaired
to 65% of normal to stabilized it (plain anchor port). Move it to Truk (anchor in circle port). Ship can be repaired now to 50%
of normal. Now safe to move to Japan major port (anchor in square) for full repair.

 

[Dan1109]

K.I.S.S - Keep It Simple Stupid - Plastic, I love your idea

 

[Dalwin]

3 Port types with 3 different symbols (trying to keep it simple as my initial suggestion without including ship designs)
plain anchor: Port size for supply (1-10) but cannot repair ships more than to 33% damage (ie: ship would remain 65%
damaged) even if you take it out of the port and put it back in it cannot repair more than that level. Represents
anchorage up to port size 10 for cargo unloading but minimal yard capacity
anchor in circle: Port size for supply (4-10) cannot repair ships more than 50% damage (ie: ship cannot repair beyond 50%).
Represents anchorage with some dockyards and major cranes and repair facilities.
anchor in square: Port size (6-10) can repair ships up to maxium 100%. Represents achorages that have major ship
construction and repair facilities incmajor drydocks.

Atolls are always simple ports (simple anchor). Island can be mid sized (anchor in circle). Continental Ports (major construction
sites) can be max (anchor in square) and can be built up to that size with port marker changing. Atolls cannot change but
Islands can go from simple port to midsize port by building more ports in location. Note: Repair rates do not equate to ability
to unload/load supplies, the two would be considered separate.

To illustrate: Japanese BB Kongo gets whacked off Guadalcanal. 80% damage. Move it to Rabaul where it can be repaired
to 65% of normal to stabilized it (plain anchor port). Move it to Truk (anchor in circle port). Ship can be repaired now to 50%
of normal. Now safe to move to Japan major port (anchor in square) for full repair.

Even though you have a good idea here, your logic is a bit backward.

It should not be that ports with lesser repair facilities cannot bring ships only back up to a certain percentage. It should be that they can't repair the more serious damage, i.e. can't do anything for ships that are below a certain percentage.

 

[plasticpanzers]

during the battles off Guadalcanal the US base at Tulagi was able to to basic emergency repair to US ships damaged there. One instance
was to a US heavy cruiser whose bow was blown off. They made the emergency repairs and even attached palm logs on its bow to have
it appear to have a bow and to give it some leeway underpower so it could get back to Pearl then to the US for final repair. Same happened
to Japanese ships that returned damaged to Rabaul then to Truk then to mainland Japan. bandaid, then bandage, then surgery.

 

[Dalwin]

during the battles off Guadalcanal the US base at Tulagi was able to to basic emergency repair to US ships damaged there. One instance
was to a US heavy cruiser whose bow was blown off. They made the emergency repairs and even attached palm logs on its bow to have
it appear to have a bow and to give it some leeway underpower so it could get back to Pearl then to the US for final repair. Same happened
to Japanese ships that returned damaged to Rabaul then to Truk then to mainland Japan. bandaid, then bandage, then surgery.

That is true and would make a bigger difference in the game if a ship at 5% health moved any slower than one at 95%. The degree of abstraction when it comes to naval units and damage in HOI is extreme. To have a proper system taking into account the wide variety of situations involving damage to ships would certainly be possible, but would likely cause a hit to how well the game runs. This is one compromise we are probably stuck with.

The same is most likely true for any wargame that is not specifically a naval sim.

 

[Secret Master]

I'd be happy if damaged ships moved slower both in combat and in strategic movement.

I know, I know, not the original intent of this thread, but ship repairs would be more meaningful in general if you had to make choices like "Do we send the entire fleet out, with the screwed up destroyers who can only sail at 18 knots? Or do we shortchange the fleet so it's faster? And do we send the damaged ships to port alone, or send the entire fleet back so the damaged ships have a better chance of making it back alive?"

 

[Dalwin]

I'd be happy if damaged ships moved slower both in combat and in strategic movement.

I know, I know, not the original intent of this thread, but ship repairs would be more meaningful in general if you had to make choices like "Do we send the entire fleet out, with the screwed up destroyers who can only sail at 18 knots? Or do we shortchange the fleet so it's faster? And do we send the damaged ships to port alone, or send the entire fleet back so the damaged ships have a better chance of making it back alive?"

I think it is still very much on topic for the thread.

What always bothered me was not whether to sail from port with damaged ships. You presume that their damage is such that it does not prevent them from keeping up.

What bothered me is never having to make the choice on whether to leave damaged ships on their own to limp back to port after a battle. Especially if the ship in question is a carrier. Do I risk my other carriers by keeping the fleet together or do I leave a token escort with the crippled ship and hope they make it? Examples of this type of decision having to be made are not all that uncommon.

 

[Bluestreak2k5]

And we could simulate this all if the ship was broken into pieces... A ship can have a completely destroyed bridge, and gun decks, but still sail at full speed where ever it is going. So unless you abstract out the engines from the ship you could never simulate a ship having an accurate speed reduction, except by some arbitrary mathematical formula. But lets discuss ship repair and ship deployment because that is more important to solving the naval combat.

 

[Dalwin]

And we could simulate this all if the ship was broken into pieces... A ship can have a completely destroyed bridge, and gun decks, but still sail at full speed where ever it is going. So unless you abstract out the engines from the ship you could never simulate a ship having an accurate speed reduction, except by some arbitrary mathematical formula. But lets discuss ship repair and ship deployment because that is more important to solving the naval combat.

Such a thing would certainly work and give a much better feel to the naval combat.

A simpler mechanic would be one used by some old boardgames. At certain numerical points when a ship is being damaged it is forced to roll on a critical hit table. You might end up with a ship that is still at 80% overall structural integrity but is guns are knocked out completely; or another which can still fight somewhat but can't move at all unless it is towed or at least has some time to effect temporary repairs so it can at least get to limping.

 

[Mannstien]

I think it is still very much on topic for the thread.

What always bothered me was not whether to sail from port with damaged ships. You presume that their damage is such that it does not prevent them from keeping up.

What bothered me is never having to make the choice on whether to leave damaged ships on their own to limp back to port after a battle. Especially if the ship in question is a carrier. Do I risk my other carriers by keeping the fleet together or do I leave a token escort with the crippled ship and hope they make it? Examples of this type of decision having to be made are not all that uncommon.

It sure sounds like real decisions admirals had to make and the real impact of battle damage on ship movement.

 

[plasticpanzers]

Add a point in ship damage that not only effects speed but increasing loss of ship functions. At 51% damage every 6 hours either the ship
will regain 1-2% in repairs (possible new tech 'at sea naval damage control) or gain 1-5% in more damage. This would be set upon a base
level of 33% repair/67% deterioration with the tech improving it to 50/50. Would require large navy 'wonder' or some since it requires a lot
of naval building to be able to better understand and implement repairs. Also ships at 51% or more damage have their speed halved. The
AI will always detach to return to 'nearest port capable' ships damaged over 33%. This way a major damaged ship the AI would return to
the nearest port (as in my Kongo/Guadalcanal scenario) to any port capable of immediate minor repair and then when that max repair is done
it would send it to the next level higher repair capacity repair port for more permanent repair. Since subs cannot zap damaged ships (until
this is fixed) then the lower speed of a damaged ship would still make it vulnerable to enemy aircraft and naval assets. Also note ships would
not be able to do underway repair better than 51% (getting engines online basically) IE: going from 51% or more damage to 49% damage.

A note on putting ships damaged or being built into production schedules. I have seen this effect the AI in that the ships being repaired are
counted as being built and the AI will not produce more ships of that type till the ships are repaired or finished (DWI mod). This can stall
the AI from building newer and more powerful versions of ships.

 

[jamesd]

Another factor regarding repair of ships I haven't seen mentioned is repair speed, which seems to be grossly overstated in HOI3. For example it may take 15 months to build a battleship, but it doesn't seem to take more than 3 months to repair one from the brink of sinking to full efficiency again. Repairing should not be any faster than building - there's even a case for it being slower as the dockyard may need to remove damaged sections and fabricate non-standard replacement sections. As it stands now, nations can just put their ships in harms way for limited gain, knowing that any damage will only keep them out of action for a short period. If it could take up to a year to repair a badly damaged capital ship, they would be used a lot more conservatively.

 

[Admiral Piett]

I'm fully on board with anything that adds much needed depth to the naval system. As it stands in Hearts of Iron III, navies (and air forces) have been left miles behind the strides that land combat has taken in this regard. It leaves me very sad since I mostly play Japan, so the two weakest game play elements in the HOI series are supposed to be my main focus.

 

[Der Phonix]

There shoud be a distinction between ports that are deep water and not (also relevant for the logistics system) and there should be a must to have shipyard IC in the province where ships are repaired.

 

[Cybvep]

@plasticpanzers I think that it's too complex and the AI would simply not be able to handle such a system. I think that a simpler one would work just fine. Therefore, non-capitals could repair minor damage (let's say, everything above 90% STR) at any port and would require, let's say, a 5-lvl port in a province with some Naval IC for more extensive repairs. On the other hand, capital ships would need, let's say, a 8-lvl port to recover any STR at all and a certain level of Naval IC in a province to repair the major damage. That would be simple and effective, and it should be easy enough for the AI to grasp the system.

 

[plasticpanzers]

may seem complex but the AI is aleady 'aware' of all ships and must cycle thru them hourly I believe to control movement and combat.
This damage level I suggested (and only a suggestion) would trigger only when the computer AI (the player has no control of the way
the computer 'reads' the units hourly if I am correct) would detect and fire the simple calculations I suggest. I know it will not happen
but you can see such calculations happen all the time in War in the Pacific which has incredibly more ships in just the Pacific game than
in the entire HOI3 game nations combined. Thus damage becomes worse or better over time. An AI automatic repair happens now,
all that is needed is a code that detaches only the heavily damaged vessels which will return to a repair facility. Having a sliding scale on
repair based upon port size means ships near the front lines generally must move further and further back or head directly to a home
port for major repairs. Also time for repairs need a tweaking.