Naval Questions - Convoy raiding benefits from patrol cruisers?

[TheMoe]

I had a few subs groups out in the Atlantic on convoy raiding missions, and I was using my 6 x 1 ship CL with radar and float planes on patrol, when I wondered if the game mechanics even worked that way. IRL, the patrolling cruisers would be able to communicate with the subs and let them know that a convoy was in the area, but I wasn't seeing the typical spotting behavior from the cruisers, including the little ships icon with the 0-2? capital ships 0-6? light ships. All I saw was the subs finding and sinking or running away from convoys.

I know we use patrol missions to support strike missions and that the patrol fleets are pretty good at locating other fleets, then keeping them spotted until hopefully the strike fleet can get there, though I've also seen subs that are in the same areas join a battle initiated by patrolling CL and responded to by a strike force, even though the subs are on dedicated convoy raiding missions.

It seems to me that ships assigned to convoy raiding missions will try and contribute to fleets located by patrol missions, but I've yet to see a patrol mission locate a convoy and have the subs join. Does anyone know how these mechanics work?

When I look at the Wiki, I read that "patrol missions spot enemy ships...and alert strike fleets." To me, a convoy would be an enemy ship, so I would think patrol fleets would locate convoys, especially if they are escorted, and they would also locate groups of capital ships. When I read about convoy raiding, the Wiki mentions that "the raiding force needs to spot the convoys before attacking them." So it would seem that any spotted convoy would attract subs assigned to convoy missions, patrolling ships that are set to engage at a certain risk, and strike forces assigned to the area in which the convoy was spotted. I just haven't seen one of my CL spotting ships find a convoy in my limited game time. How does all this work? Should I just send my subs out to the areas where I expect to see a convoy and have my CL spotting ships supporting my strike forces in areas where I expect to see capital ships?

 

[Mousetick]

It seems to me that ships assigned to convoy raiding missions will try and contribute to fleets located by patrol missions, but I've yet to see a patrol mission locate a convoy and have the subs join. Does anyone know how these mechanics work?

Ships on convoy raiding mission perform spotting on their own, based on their Surface Detection stats. They don't rely on patrol task forces, and patrol task forces don't help spotting convoys. These 2 missions are independent and don't interact with each other.

Should I just send my subs out to the areas where I expect to see a convoy and have my CL spotting ships supporting my strike forces in areas where I expect to see capital ships?

Yes. Using patrol task forces to work with convoy raiding task forces is wasteful and produces no better convoy raiding results, than without.

HTH.

 

[TheMoe]

Ships on convoy raiding mission perform spotting on their own, based on their Surface Detection stats. They don't rely on patrol task forces, and patrol task forces don't help spotting convoys. These 2 missions are independent and don't interact with each other.


Yes. Using patrol task forces to work with convoy raiding task forces is wasteful and produces no better convoy raiding results, than without.

HTH.

Thank you! That's what I was thinking I was seeing. Sure appreciate the help!

 

[Mousetick]

To me, a convoy would be an enemy ship

In game terms, a convoy is not a ship. Navy ships and transport ships are treated separately. Unfortunately the game doesn't make this clear, and it's easy to confuse the two.

For example, players are often confused why their naval patrols don't intercept convoys carrying naval invasion troops. Task forces on any mission other than Convoy Raiding don't care at all about convoys, they don't see them as a threat and don't attack them.

Edit: this is not entirely accurate. See following discussion.
Conversely, planes on Naval Strike mission don't discriminate between convoys and ships, either are valid targets.

 

[TheMoe]

In game terms, a convoy is not a ship. Navy ships and transport ships are treated separately. Unfortunately the game doesn't make this clear, and it's easy to confuse the two.

For example, players are often confused why their naval patrols don't intercept convoys carrying naval invasion troops. Task forces on any mission other than Convoy Raiding don't care at all about convoys, they don't see them as a threat and don't attack them.

Conversely, planes on Naval Strike mission don't discriminate between convoys and ships, either are valid targets.

Thank you. Yes, I agree. I've seen my naval bombers take out anything floating that's not on our side. How strange that ships on patrol will ignore convoys, even if they are escorted, or maybe the escorts are just sailing around on convoy protection duty and happen to show up when my submarines strike. If the latter is the case, then it seems like the ships on convoy protection should be a valid target for the ships on patrol, but maybe not. Maybe they're just invisible to the ship AI, but not to the plane AI?

 

[eastcoastceojam]

Not sure if this is just an obsolete section of the wiki, but I found this in one of the articles:

Naval strikes using only airpower never attack enemy convoys carrying resources or supplies. They can attack enemy convoys carrying troops. However, convoys auto-repair between each attack, and most aircraft are too weak to sink a convoy in one attack. Only NAV2 and NAV3 have a sufficiently high naval attack value to sink troops convoys. The auto-repair mechanism also means that bigger wings are better.

The situation is quite different if naval strikes are combined with an attack by warships (including submarines). In this case, the resource and supply convoys can also be the target of an attack, and many different types of aircraft can be useful (i.e., not only NAV2 and NAV3).

So it seems that NAV bombers will target troop convoys, but not trade/supply convoys, unless those supply convoys are engaged with friendly naval forces on a convoy raiding mission.

Full article can be found here:

Air missions - Hearts of Iron 4 Wiki

hoi4.paradoxwikis.com

 

[TheMoe]

Not sure if this is just an obsolete section of the wiki, but I found this in one of the articles:




So it seems that NAV bombers will target troop convoys, but not trade/supply convoys, unless those supply convoys are engaged with friendly naval forces on a convoy raiding mission.

Full article can be found here:

Air missions - Hearts of Iron 4 Wiki

hoi4.paradoxwikis.com

Interesting. I wonder if that came out before MNG expansion, where we learned what type of cargo the convoys were carrying? I played a game last night with the latest patch, and my naval bombers attacked any convoys coming through the English Channel. Maybe I missed something, but it sure looked to me like any ship was fair game.

 

[bitmode]

So it seems that NAV bombers will target troop convoys, but not trade/supply convoys, unless those supply convoys are engaged with friendly naval forces on a convoy raiding mission.

This should still be correct. To be precise, NAVs on naval strike can target battles or units, with task forces and divisions being the only two types of units in the game. The latter just happen to be carried by convoys.
Trade and supply convoys are not units and have no particular position on the map (unless convoy raiders use their particular spotting mechanic).

 

[Mousetick]

Not sure if this is just an obsolete section of the wiki, but I found this in one of the articles:
So it seems that NAV bombers will target troop convoys, but not trade/supply convoys, unless those supply convoys are engaged with friendly naval forces on a convoy raiding mission.

Yes I think the Wiki is correct (and I've edited the incorrect generalization in my previous post).

My experience reflects what the Wiki and bitmode say: my trade & supply convoys never get bombed by the enemy.

Thank you for bringing it up.

 

[Mousetick]

How strange that ships on patrol will ignore convoys, even if they are escorted, or maybe the escorts are just sailing around on convoy protection duty and happen to show up when my submarines strike.

I don't know, that's a good question. I'd expect the convoy escort to be spotted by a patrol, even if the escort is "passive" (i.e. not responding to a convoy raid attack). But I haven't been paying enough attention to that kind of situation to be able to tell. @bitmode probably knows the answer.

 

[bitmode]

How strange that ships on patrol will ignore convoys, even if they are escorted, or maybe the escorts are just sailing around on convoy protection duty and happen to show up when my submarines strike. If the latter is the case, then it seems like the ships on convoy protection should be a valid target for the ships on patrol, but maybe not. Maybe they're just invisible to the ship AI, but not to the plane AI?

You are correct, the game does not actually simulate the escorts sailing alongside the convoys, they just happen to show up according to abstract calculations, like escort efficiency, coverage etc.

Escort TFs are valid spotting targets for patrols, at least I have not seen problems in this regard.

The convoys themselves being ignored by patrols is intentional. One of the goals of the naval rework in Man the Guns was better separation between small scale convoy engagements and large scale fleet combat. In the previous system, large battle fleets would often sail by while the enemy forces were busy engaging some convoy. With the extremely long duration of naval combat in this game, any decision to engage can bog down ships for many days or weeks; there are no targets of opportunity.

 

[HugsAndSnuggles]

The convoys themselves being ignored by patrols is intentional. One of the goals of the naval rework in Man the Guns was better separation between small scale convoy engagements and large scale fleet combat. In the previous system, large battle fleets would often sail by while the enemy forces were busy engaging some convoy. With the extremely long duration of naval combat in this game, any decision to engage can bog down ships for many days or weeks; there are no targets of opportunity.

Should have opted for task force engagement rules, really. Currently, game still fails to achieve said goal because your strikeforce (usually equipped with ASW only as an afterthought, if at all) will move to protect convoys from subs on the first opportunity, missing "bigger" targets.

Not to mention that, logically, one would expect patrols and strike forces to be actually protecting from naval invasions; and not just by mythical "superiority" score, which only needed to be overcome for a split second in order to "sneak in" a bunch of unescorted troop transports.

 

[bitmode]

Should have opted for task force engagement rules, really. Currently, game still fails to achieve said goal because your strikeforce (usually equipped with ASW only as an afterthought, if at all) will move to protect convoys from subs on the first opportunity, missing "bigger" targets.

Not to mention that, logically, one would expect patrols and strike forces to be actually protecting from naval invasions; and not just by mythical "superiority" score, which only needed to be overcome for a split second in order to "sneak in" a bunch of unescorted troop transports.

this game leaves a lot to be desired

 

[sekelsenmat]

Should have opted for task force engagement rules, really. Currently, game still fails to achieve said goal because your strikeforce (usually equipped with ASW only as an afterthought, if at all) will move to protect convoys from subs on the first opportunity, missing "bigger" targets.

Not to mention that, logically, one would expect patrols and strike forces to be actually protecting from naval invasions; and not just by mythical "superiority" score, which only needed to be overcome for a split second in order to "sneak in" a bunch of unescorted troop transports.

An easy way to improve this would be if they made it so that strike fleets don't join a battle unless there are "surface" ships on both sides, instead of the current "any non-convoy ship on both sides"

The reason for still allowing strike fleets to join convoy battles if there is a surface raider is that otherwise you get in a situation where the Bismarck goes around unpunished killing convoys and the british fleet sleeps around. Mostly a game thing to help the AI.