• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

Rommel22

What does this mean?!
17 Badges
Nov 8, 2001
931
8
Visit site
  • Iron Cross
  • 500k Club
  • 200k Club
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Victoria 2
  • Semper Fi
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • March of the Eagles
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Darkest Hour
Navies played just as important roles during those times as much as land armies. I have a few questions and/or ideas about the naval part of this game.

Will the manpower pool be considered or used when raising a navy? From literature one can see how much of a drain on power it was to have a powerful navy or to raise one. When Rome put forth to raise a navy matching that of Carthage in the 1st Punic War they required some 100,000 men, which I think they built some 250 ships of different types.

Not to mention the cost and time to raise a navy. When Rome lost the majority of its fleet to a storm of the Sicilian coast the Rome (the state) had no money to pay for a new one, they had to borrow money from the wealthy families. The point here, will it also be expansive to raise a navy in terms of time, money, manpower and resources?

Will the player be able to use a navy to blockade towns and cities? I know in all the EU games this was possible. However will it affect a siege of a city? In my opinion it should. As we know, Syracuse or even Lilybeaum held out for years even though under direct land siege, ships were used to supply to cities to sustain them. If the player however decides to blockade those cities as well, it should be taken into account in the outcome of the siege or how long a city can hold out.

Also, the Romans and the Carthaginians alike at times used soldiers from their land armies as marines of sorts on their ships. They would station soldiers on their ships prior to a naval engagement so that once the ships closed and used their grappling hooks to keep each others from escaping the soldiers would boards the enemy ship and kill or capture the crew along with the ship. The extra number of troops of course was a huge advantage to the side who did this.

However there were huge drawbacks as well. The ships were slower, the troops were not able to stay on board long of course due to the lack of provisions to sustain more crew. This might be more in depth than EU can go, but I would like to see an option where one can add more crew to the ships at the expanse of the ships maneuverability and range.

Also would it be possible to have a new element to naval warfare in this game? The capture of enemy ships was standard practice by both sides and the battles during those times consisted mostly of either ramming the opposing ship into its broad side and cutting off its oars or boarding it and capturing it. Many times either Rome or Carthage captured numerous amount of ships during an engagement. I do not have a book next to me right now to site numbers and the engagement in detail, but one engagement of example the Romans captured some 35 ships which they used later.
 

takedown47

Grand Strategist
24 Badges
Oct 24, 2007
3.544
1.280
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Deus Vult
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • 500k Club
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
I would like to see an option where one can add more crew to the ships at the expanse of the ships maneuverability and range
When you say that i keep thinking of brigade attachments in HoI2.

I agree, navies should play an equal role to land based armies or else why did nations like Carthage even bother building the best navy if roman legions could do more on land? I guess as a land power Rome doesn't really need a navy, but Carthage (like Britain in HoI2) does need a navy to defend against any sea borne invasion on their island home (now i know africa province is not an island but the quickest way to capture Carthage is the sea from Sicily.

I guess a feature that should be implemented is naval range. Why bother capturing sicily if you can just load your army onto some ships and invade africa directly? There for some system of island hoping should be involved. Say you loaded at Calabria and right click africa province, the computer should automatically sail to Syracuse, resupply briefly then sail to Agrigentum, then calculate the final leg of the journey.
 

Rommel22

What does this mean?!
17 Badges
Nov 8, 2001
931
8
Visit site
  • Iron Cross
  • 500k Club
  • 200k Club
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Victoria 2
  • Semper Fi
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • March of the Eagles
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Darkest Hour
takedown47 said:
When you say that i keep thinking of brigade attachments in HoI2.

I agree, navies should play an equal role to land based armies or else why did nations like Carthage even bother building the best navy if roman legions could do more on land? I guess as a land power Rome doesn't really need a navy, but Carthage (like Britain in HoI2) does need a navy to defend against any sea borne invasion on their island home (now i know africa province is not an island but the quickest way to capture Carthage is the sea from Sicily.

I guess a feature that should be implemented is naval range. Why bother capturing sicily if you can just load your army onto some ships and invade africa directly? There for some system of island hoping should be involved. Say you loaded at Calabria and right click africa province, the computer should automatically sail to Syracuse, resupply briefly then sail to Agrigentum, then calculate the final leg of the journey.

Brigade attachments is a good idea to solve the marine problem. This would add a bonus to warfare, however reduce the range, speed and maneuverability of the ships.

A good point you made about Sicily being a strategically important. That is a major reason why Hannibal or Carthage for that matter dismissed the fact of a naval invasion of Italy. The range being to great for ships of that era to make such a long journey.

I am sure this will not be difficult to implement by imposing range limitations on ships, depending of course on the type (bireme, trireme...etc.) Another aspect that should be implemented is supplies for ships. The ships needing to resupply when such long journeys were made (Africa-Sicily-Italy), this should take a couple of days to complete while in port.
 

unmerged(49372)

Second Lieutenant
Oct 13, 2005
112
0
I actually like the brigade idea because it's flexible, you could take off the marines when fighting a weaker foe to save money and increase range and speed. However, in a battle against a heavily armed enemy, you could add marine contingents to boost your naval power. That way you wouldn't have to build different vessels to deal with different foes.

However, if they went with different unit types to make it simpler, that would be understandable.
 

hildoceras

Fossile en devenir
7 Badges
May 16, 2002
7.447
29
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • For The Glory
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis III: Collection
a point that could be added to the naval power is the logistical support. I know that in the Vth century BC, Xerces used part of his fleet to give the support to the troops on land while they were walking parallelly to the coast. I suppose others did the same (I remember something about romans but can't find references).
 

Rommel22

What does this mean?!
17 Badges
Nov 8, 2001
931
8
Visit site
  • Iron Cross
  • 500k Club
  • 200k Club
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Victoria 2
  • Semper Fi
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • March of the Eagles
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Darkest Hour
hildoceras said:
a point that could be added to the naval power is the logistical support. I know that in the Vth century BC, Xerces used part of his fleet to give the support to the troops on land while they were walking parallelly to the coast. I suppose others did the same (I remember something about romans but can't find references).
The brigade idea seems the best as you can place marines on any of your ships as was done, however usually only the bigger ships like triremes and quinqueremes would receive a contingent of troops.

However one should only be able to do this while in port of course and adding a brigade should lower the organizational level of the unit as this took time and organization.

As for logistical concerns, yes this was a common practice clearly evident in the Punic Wars. Both sides would use their navies to shadow their army along the coast to provide support in many ways. Be it with additional troops (using the ship’s crew as reinforcements) or as means of transporting the heavy baggage of the army or splitting up the army and shipping half of it and the other half march on land.

I am not sure how something like this would be incorporated as this is more from a tactically view point and EU is a strategic game. But having ships of the coast of the province you are fighting in could give you a morale bonus of sorts. For example in HOI, having ships of the coast provide your troops in battle with a bonus (shore bombardment), something to that affect could be implemented.

Ships were often used to raid an enemy’s coastline as well, this was standard practice be any nation. Again, not sure how this would be implemented, but something along the lines of how pirates work in EU, but affect not only trade but supply within the province along with dissent or production.
 
Oct 3, 2005
258
0
hildoceras said:
a point that could be added to the naval power is the logistical support. I know that in the Vth century BC, Xerces used part of his fleet to give the support to the troops on land while they were walking parallelly to the coast. I suppose others did the same (I remember something about romans but can't find references).
Well, navies have always played a crucial role on warfare, specially during ancient times. The battle of thermopylae ( I know, was 2 centuries before game starts, but things didn't change that much) wouldn't have lasted more than a couple of hours hadn't the Greeks have had a navy and the brilliant commander,Themistocles to provide support. The Persians could have just sailed right behind the so called "300 Spartans" and crushed them in a matter of minutes.
Hopefully Johan and the dev team will emphasize the importance of naval warfare during the era and not make it the same way crusader kings portraits navies.
 

TeutonicKnight

Captain
19 Badges
Sep 28, 2001
491
3
Visit site
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris
  • Pride of Nations
  • 500k Club
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Victoria 2
  • The Showdown Effect
  • Magicka
  • Impire
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Diplomacy
I was thinking about the naval aspect of the game as well and supply fell into that catagory. Would it not be feasible to implement a supply system similar to HOI. Keeping supply lines open for trade was vital and would add more strategy to the overall game.

One could send excess supplies to a province to "winter over" while getting ready for a spring offensive. At the same time an enemy could try and deny the navy of foe that resupply.
 

Rommel22

What does this mean?!
17 Badges
Nov 8, 2001
931
8
Visit site
  • Iron Cross
  • 500k Club
  • 200k Club
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Victoria 2
  • Semper Fi
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • March of the Eagles
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Darkest Hour
hildoceras said:
maybe it could reduce the penalty for attrition (especially in North African provinces)

That would certainly work and simulate some sort of a supply system through ships off the coast.
 

jacob-Lundgren

GM/Brutal Werewolf Leader
Moderator
67 Badges
Sep 18, 2001
2.600
48
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • 500k Club
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis III: Collection
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Hearts of Iron II: Beta
  • Pride of Nations
  • Europa Universalis: Rome Collectors Edition
  • Humble Paradox Bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Knights of Pen and Paper +1 Edition
  • Magicka
  • March of the Eagles
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
Training for naval crews needs to be very doable or some serious bonus available for naval powers though
 

Archaalen

Colonel
40 Badges
Mar 19, 2003
1.135
0
Visit site
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Victoria 2
  • War of the Roses
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis III: Collection
  • Humble Paradox Bundle
  • Magicka 2
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Knights of Pen and Paper 2
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Teleglitch: Die More Edition
  • Age of Wonders: Shadow Magic
  • Age of Wonders
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Shadowrun: Hong Kong
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Deluxe edition
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall - Revelations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Ancient Space
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Knights of Pen and Paper +1 Edition
  • Magicka
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Rome Gold
  • Sengoku
This sounds like a really cool idea.
One other thing I would LOVE to see in this game is temporary bonuses and penalties from winning battles on land and sea. Battles won would give you a temporary (a month or two) bonus to the morale of your troops (but only of the type that won, so no bonus to the legions for sea battles) and a temporary warscore bonus, and losing would give you the inverse, both based upon the size of the battle. This would simulate how forces would get disheartened after a large defeat such as Cannae or Ecnomus (sea battle 1st punic war), and encourage wars to be settled after one side loses a big battle, rather than always because of land occupied. Certain AIs, mainly Rome's, would disregard these bonuses below a certain level (maybe even entirely), so they would continue to fight after others would have surrendered, thus mimicking their historical behavior towards wars.
 

DesertSnow

Colonel
50 Badges
Oct 10, 2007
1.108
16
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • March of the Eagles
  • Magicka
  • For The Glory
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Darkest Hour
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Shadowrun: Hong Kong
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Tyranny - Bastards Wound
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • 500k Club
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Tyranny - Tales from the Tiers
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
There is a basic thing to consider when talking about sea warfare. Trade doesn't only concern making money (as in EU3) or exchanging "resources-troop supplies" (as in HoI2). A basic resource that must be taken into account is food, because starvation is a major issue in warfare.

During most of the Peloponesian War (war between two alliances, one lead be Sparta, the other lead by Athens. It lasted from 432-402 BCE IIRC) the Spartan infantry controlled Athenian agricultural areas, which were outside the athenians' defensive walls. Were it not for the mighty athenian navy to carry huge amounts of grain from the black sea, the war would be over in just a matter of months.

The Athenians finally surrendered when the Spartans, having built a navy of their own with the help of Persia, finally destroyed the Athenian navy in a battle at Aigos Potamoi.

So, paradox must finally invent "food" as a game factor.