Naval Minors question.
- Thread starter Lupis Volk
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China. Sort out your internal problems, get a ton of CIC, become a major along the way :v
The Dutch have fun naval focus in MTG, lots of oil, a killer sub template in 36 and ports over three continents. You can acumulate a bunch of dockyard output boost too, particularly if you go fascist and placate japan.
As Romania I was able to build a sizeable (for a minor anyway) navy. Had some battles with the Soviets in the black sea which was cool
Netherlands is a bad choice. You don't have the luxury of focusing on naval production with the Germans breathing down your neck, and going fascist will deprive you of access to your resources in the colonies for much of the game.
China is an even worse choice. Low initial research slots plus an initial situation where it's completely and entirely pointless to invest in naval production. China is also quite slim on resources.
Portugal is actually one of the better choices for a naval minor. It can get a huge number of factory slots especially if you integrate Angola and Mozambique, and the country's focus tree pushes you in that direction anyway by locking the fifth research slot behind have 15+ dockyards.
"Naval minor" is kind of an oxymoron, though. Naval technology is disproportionately research intensive with all the separate gun batteries, Anti-air batteries, torpedoes, radar, sonar, depth charge technologies and more. Plus ships are quite costly to produce. Usually it's just not worth it to invest in it unless you're already a major. You get better returns from investing in air supremacy and bombers than fighting an enemy navy directly with your own.
China is an even worse choice. Low initial research slots plus an initial situation where it's completely and entirely pointless to invest in naval production. China is also quite slim on resources.
Portugal is actually one of the better choices for a naval minor. It can get a huge number of factory slots especially if you integrate Angola and Mozambique, and the country's focus tree pushes you in that direction anyway by locking the fifth research slot behind have 15+ dockyards.
"Naval minor" is kind of an oxymoron, though. Naval technology is disproportionately research intensive with all the separate gun batteries, Anti-air batteries, torpedoes, radar, sonar, depth charge technologies and more. Plus ships are quite costly to produce. Usually it's just not worth it to invest in it unless you're already a major. You get better returns from investing in air supremacy and bombers than fighting an enemy navy directly with your own.
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Sweden is a good one, probably even the best all factors considered.
- 3 designers to pick from
- 5th research slot at 22 Sep '37 or 70 days later if unlucky (or 70 days earlier if really lucky!) - depends on trade
- good defensive position, allowing naval buildup from day 1 while safely staying at 3 MIC even if attacked by UK
- set of natural resources ideal for shipbuilding
- 'neutral' stance, i.e. join the war when and at whatever side you see fit
- lack of decent starting ships, which means you can scrap them all bar one without any regrets whatsoever and train for 0.3xx XP at minimal fuel cost
- superpower status within a close reach (Kalmar Union)
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Yeah i find that to be a good pick. i use a mod that allows me to annex their neighbors and gain all thier armies, navy, air force and generals and admirals. To form the super states.
China is swimming in the materials needed for ships i thought?
Turkey and Spain are the overall strongest minors concerning industrial potential, so logically they are also the ones more cappable of building a strong navy.
But Spain gets the civil war and Turkey is kinda stuck deep in the Mediterranean, so in theory you could go full navy, but why should you?
This leaves with the next 2 realistic candidates which have have a solid start on the Atlantic ocean as well as several overseas provinces that can greatly increase your naval power projection, Netherlands (territories in Central/South America and Indonesia) and Portugal (Territories in the North Atlantic, Africa, India, China and Southeast Asia). They both start with 3 dockyards and 11 Civilian factories, this is actually not bad for minor standards.
Here Netherlands has the advantage of having oil and a bit of steel while Portugal has the massive advantage of not getting invaded by Germany in 1939.
Other advantages Portugal has is their very naval-oriented focus tree. If you really push for it, you can get +7 dockyards on your first 3 focuses alone, that's a whopping 10 dockyards by 1936.
Portugal also gets significant naval research focuses as well as naval doctrine research focuses, and as Portugal you are incentivized into taking these focuses soon because your 5th research slot depends on it.
You also have several other focuses to build naval bases and naval forts on many of your overseas possessions so you have a solid global projection.
Quick tip, if you turn your overseas possessions into colab goverments they will be able to do their generic trees and pimp their industry far more than you could possibly do yourself, and this could boost you into major tier-industry.
Your starting position is also relatively safe, since your only neighbour tends to remain neutral, and as Portugal you have means to ensure both you and Spain join the same faction to avoid Peninsular wars.
The only drawback is the lack of steel, chromium and oil, Portugal is flowing on Tungsten, but thats all the resources they have and its not very useful for navies.
The honourable mention is Sweden.
Sweden has the economic potential of the Netherlands but a much worse global presence, they lack oil and a unique focus tree. They are also not completely safe if they join the war on any side. On the plus side they have a lot of steel and chromium.
But Spain gets the civil war and Turkey is kinda stuck deep in the Mediterranean, so in theory you could go full navy, but why should you?
This leaves with the next 2 realistic candidates which have have a solid start on the Atlantic ocean as well as several overseas provinces that can greatly increase your naval power projection, Netherlands (territories in Central/South America and Indonesia) and Portugal (Territories in the North Atlantic, Africa, India, China and Southeast Asia). They both start with 3 dockyards and 11 Civilian factories, this is actually not bad for minor standards.
Here Netherlands has the advantage of having oil and a bit of steel while Portugal has the massive advantage of not getting invaded by Germany in 1939.
Other advantages Portugal has is their very naval-oriented focus tree. If you really push for it, you can get +7 dockyards on your first 3 focuses alone, that's a whopping 10 dockyards by 1936.
Portugal also gets significant naval research focuses as well as naval doctrine research focuses, and as Portugal you are incentivized into taking these focuses soon because your 5th research slot depends on it.
You also have several other focuses to build naval bases and naval forts on many of your overseas possessions so you have a solid global projection.
Quick tip, if you turn your overseas possessions into colab goverments they will be able to do their generic trees and pimp their industry far more than you could possibly do yourself, and this could boost you into major tier-industry.
Your starting position is also relatively safe, since your only neighbour tends to remain neutral, and as Portugal you have means to ensure both you and Spain join the same faction to avoid Peninsular wars.
The only drawback is the lack of steel, chromium and oil, Portugal is flowing on Tungsten, but thats all the resources they have and its not very useful for navies.
The honourable mention is Sweden.
Sweden has the economic potential of the Netherlands but a much worse global presence, they lack oil and a unique focus tree. They are also not completely safe if they join the war on any side. On the plus side they have a lot of steel and chromium.
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I'm quite saddened by the fact that Portugal only has a generic naval design bureau whereas Spain which generally lacks the time to invest heavily into their navy due to the SCW taking up a few years, coupled with production penalties and do not have many resources before unlocking prospecting gets more love on that front.
That said as Fascist my favourite has to be the Netherlands, whilst giving up the DEI resources to Japan hurts you still have plenty of oil coming in from Curacao (make sure to invest in it pre-war, you get a "free" CIV there too from spending PP on it 5x), build a lot of collab in France and make sure you occupy a large portion of them and you're pretty well sorted for steel and aluminium. With all the extra dockyards and bonuses from your naval foci you can start contesting the oceans just 1-2 years into the war if you play your cards right. Just make sure to be cautious and avoid the AI doomstacks.
That said as Fascist my favourite has to be the Netherlands, whilst giving up the DEI resources to Japan hurts you still have plenty of oil coming in from Curacao (make sure to invest in it pre-war, you get a "free" CIV there too from spending PP on it 5x), build a lot of collab in France and make sure you occupy a large portion of them and you're pretty well sorted for steel and aluminium. With all the extra dockyards and bonuses from your naval foci you can start contesting the oceans just 1-2 years into the war if you play your cards right. Just make sure to be cautious and avoid the AI doomstacks.
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In MP definitely.
In SP you can spam mines or if you're a bit more advanced in terms of slots, research tier 3 subs + snorkels early, do some trade interdiction research, and have stuff too advanced for the AI. When going for Macau my day I was able to clear out Japanese + UK navies with them. Unlike humans AI doesn't do stuff like stack radar + drop planes + use cheap destroyers with depth charges to clear out subs, nor does it sweep mines, so a few packs of subs can erase fleets (and bait them out with convoy raids).
Portugal is an especially good path for that since you can usually use Spain as a buffer in historical focus games, and go monarchist path for Brazil core pop + even more IC. Also gets more naval IC than usual from focuses. Australia is also pretty good at naval aspect for a minor.
Greece, Turkey, Iran, and others with at least some naval slots + generic focus trees (for now) can make it work. To do it with nations like Philippines involves some cheesy tricks but it's possible. Sweden is worth a mention since it has its own steel and as long as it isn't attacking USSR through Finland or something can use the naval dominance to its advantage.
Similar picks for naval focus are Mexico (when not rushing down USA), Brazil, Peru/Venezuela (with some early attack strats), all still in SP of course. In MP many of these nations wouldn't get picked, or if they are it would be...unorthodox...to spec them into naval production for reasons you say.
If you want it together with a challenge, Dutch East Indies. Space for Dockyards, Manpower, Ressources - everything plentiful, but you are an integrated puppet and you will face Japan with their navy. And then their is the buggy twist that going for independency with fascist help will transform you into an Australian puppet ( https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...nsforms-me-into-an-australian-colony.1367987/ )
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The dutch are nice, but last time I played them the Japanese gave me a hell of a time. I once played Siam and had a good run with some battle cruisers.
Canada can be quite nice, especially if you go down the resource route and therefore you don't have the manpower.
Canada can be quite nice, especially if you go down the resource route and therefore you don't have the manpower.
I might be wrong. but there is a fix to this as well. of letting the AI Conquer and take control of the resource rich islands, and then conquering them back seems to return the control of these said resources to your puppet, or yourself once again, rather than Japan.
Wow, that's pretty cool. I might try that out at some point. Only problem is having enough forces there to take the DEI back. I generally prefer to keep them out of the war so I can focus on holding the my coast + occupied France and my holdings in S.A. Might be a project for after 41 or so when I have enough forces to repel the constant naval invasions.